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Featured What is the Gospel?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Jul 29, 2018.

  1. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Only religious Jews can include genetic Gentiles, that is, converts to Judaism (Romans 2:17, Romans 11:13).

    Genetic Jews are referred to in Romans 9:3-5, for example, and they include Christian genetic Jews, such as the apostle Paul (Acts 22:3). They also include genetic Jews who mistakenly still adhere to Old Covenant Judaism; and genetic Jews who adhere to no religion at all, or to some pagan religion, such as Hinduism or Buddhism.

    Note that the Bible itself shows that the Church is made up of genetic Jews and genetic Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    No, it does believe that it is evil. Otherwise, Samsara would be good, instead of entailing suffering.

    It's extremely important for Christians to be aware of (2 Corinthians 2:11).

    For Satan, who is a literal, seven-headed, red, serpentine dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), also called Leviathan (Isaiah 27:1, Psalms 74:14, Job 41:1,34), could have begun his existence as a dinosaur born some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. And over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved (or been miraculously granted by God) to have consciousness as we know it. And his seven-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, Leviathan could have come to know and worship God with all of his heart. God could have then granted him immortality, and taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherub. Cherubim are a type of angelic being (Ezekiel 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphim are a different type of angelic being (Isaiah 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Revelation 4:7-8). As a cherub in heaven, Leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer", which means "the morning star".

    After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherub, and perhaps as even one of the greatest angelic beings in heaven, Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go to the earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden, and its special, individual humans named Adam and Eve, miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all of the rest of the earth (cf. Luke 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as wholly beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit two pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.

    From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God, and vowed to himself that eventually he would ascend back into heaven, and take rule over all of the angelic beings there, regardless of what God wanted (Isaiah 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his first act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Genesis 3), knowing that this would result in her (and her offspring) becoming mortal (Genesis 2:17). In the future, Satan will deceive the world (Revelation 12:9) into worshipping himself and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8), knowing that this will result in billions of people ending up in eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering which he knows that he himself will end up in (Revelation 12:12c, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

    Lucifer will deceive the world into worshipping him after he loses a war in heaven at the midpoint of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and is cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:7 to 13:4). But instead of coming down looking defeated, he could descend to the earth in a magnificent, gigantic golden spaceship for all the world to see. The world could see him as an "alien", but he could slither forth from his spaceship and say something like: "Greetings! Be not alarmed. I assure you that I am no alien, but a fellow earthling, born and raised on this planet millions of years ago. I have come to help you through this terrible tribulation which you are experiencing, and to show you how you might eventually return with me back into a much better, higher realm of existence, wholly beyond this evil, material universe".

    He could then foist upon the world an updated version of an ancient Gnostic lie: "Listen, my fellow earthlings! None of us belong here. We did not start out here, but all started out as wholly-spiritual beings, even wholly-divine beings, residing in utter bliss from all eternity in the Pleroma, what you would call Heaven, the higher realm which I will eventually take you back to. During the endless ages of our past existence in the Pleroma, we were not averse to partaking in a great variety of different entertainments. So when YHWH, who was one of us, yet of greater consciousness than any one of us, announced that he had devised a marvelous new form of entertainment, we were ready to give it a try.

    "YHWH said that he had created a physical universe (this one), which to us was like what you would call a virtual reality, like the ones you create using computers. And he said that we could enter this universe, and interact with all of its amazing physical life-forms and objects, by temporarily taking upon ourselves physical bodies, which to us was the equivalent of what you would call a virtual-reality headset, gloves, etc., which some of you wear on your bodies when you want to wholly immerse yourselves in the virtual realities which you create with computers.

    "But then YHWH proposed another aspect to his entertainment which we all most foolishly accepted. He said that to increase the intensity of our experience in his universe, he would use his greater consciousness to hypnotize each of ours, so that while we were in his universe, each of us would think that all we were were physical entities within his material universe. We would completely forget that we were actually wholly-divine beings, and had been from all eternity, dwelling in bliss in the Pleroma.

    "When one of us asked YHWH: 'But what if we don't like our experience in your universe, and want to exit it and return here to the Pleroma? How could we ever notify you of our wishes, when under your hypnotic spell we will have no knowledge of that option?' YHWH answered in a very assuring manner that he would be able to instantly extricate any one of us whom he saw was not enjoying his new entertainment. We all believed him, because he had not yet shown his true nature to anyone. We had no idea that in his heart he was actually an evil, cruel tyrant, who all along had been planning to imprison, enslave, and torture all of us within his diabolical device (this physical universe).

    "But during my great sufferings in YHWH's physical realm, and the great struggles of my consciousness, my spirit, to find a way of escaping it, my spirit eventually grew in power to be equal to YHWH's, and so I was able to break myself free from his hypnotic spell, and regain all of my divine power. I can show you the way to do the same thing, but you must be willing to join with me now with all of your own consciousnesses, your own spirits. You must be willing to love and worship me now completely, so that the power of all of your spirits might become joined with the power of my own, greater spirit, and eventually break completely free from YHWH's hypnotic spell. Then you will regain all of your own, divine power, like I did, and together we will defeat YHWH, and we will escape this vile, material universe, and ascend back to the Pleroma, and to our bliss as gods, doing what we please, forever"
    .

    The world will actually believe this lie (or something similar to it), because it will be accompanied by the most amazing miracles (e.g. Revelation 13:13) performed by the power of Lucifer/Satan himself (2 Thessalonians 2:9), and because it will be accompanied by a strong delusion sent by YHWH God on the unrepentant world (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). But the world will worship Lucifer (and his human son the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") for less than four years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

    Thinking is evil only if the thoughts are evil.

    And if thoughts did not exist, then thinking could not exist.

    For what is thinking but thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    It's okay with me if you have the last word in this thread.

    You still didn't answer the reasoning that I set forth as a whole. And unless you can do that, you must keep it in the back of your mind that your doctrine is faulty. I pray that the Holy Spirit will convict you of your teaching of false doctrine; and also convince you of the truth.

    Sincerely,

    justbyfaith.

    re#340.
     
  3. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that no reasoning can contradict the truth that ultimate salvation requires works (Matthew 7:21).
     
  4. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    The word in the text is Jews, not genetic Jews. The category of Jews include genetic gentiles who converted, agreed to observe the Old Covenat. So the statement says the church consists of Jews who used to follow the old covenant and gentiles who didint. Jews who have stopped following the old covenant are not jews. Jews who cant follow the old covenat because thetemple fell are also not jews. No Jews exist today.

    Hinduism believes in everything. Good is necessary. Evil is necessary. It’s an undependable source for supporting worldviews, and dangerous in its ignorance of harmful practices.

    We don’t need a Satan to lead us astray. The life force that causes us to eat and live and procreate to survive and ensure the existence of a species, when uncontrolled, is the greatest Satan, leading to a life which does not serve God. A horse is powerful and unrestrained and beautiful. However, when it is not subdued, it does not serve God. It lives a life without fulfilment, purpose. That is the greatest evil. God created everything in the garden, including the life force, the Serpent, and called it good. Then He commanded Adam to subdue creation.

    Your original statement from #329:

    The material realm is unreal and evil.

    This reply of yours is given when I asked how an unreal entity could be evil. See how incoherent your views have become?
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Concerning Matthew 7:21, what is the will of the Father? See John 6:28-29. If salvation is by works, then the only work that God requires is that we believe on the One whom the Father hath sent.

    See also John 6:40. The will of the Father is that we might have everlasting life who have beheld the Son and believed on Him.

    It boils down to salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Because the only work that saves is identified as faith in Christ in John 6:28-29 and John 6:40.

    "This is the work of God, that you believe on the One whom He hath sent."
     
  6. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Genetic Jews are referred to in Romans 9:3-5, for it refers to "the flesh".

    And they can become part of the Church just as Gentiles can (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    They are still genetic Jews.

    Hinduism does not believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    That is, Hinduism does not believe that the Gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13) is that we can be initially saved from hell by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that He suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

    And Hinduism does not believe that the Gospel is that we can be ultimately saved from hell if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from every sin that we commit (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all that we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to, and peace with, everyone whom we have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and do not blaspheme God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29), and do not remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and do not worship the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), or worship his image, or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), but continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

    But he is still there, trying to lead us astray (1 Thessalonians 3:5, Matthew 4:3).

    That was stated as the view of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Gnosticism (the future Antichrist's religion), not the view of Biblical Christianity.

    For Christians need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that Christians will not forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the third day after His death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ was not resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why He still has the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 did not stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For He will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of Christians (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when He returns, He will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on His resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

    Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus Christ proves that flesh is not evil in itself, for He has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh is not evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of Christians into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.

    Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, and became trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).

    And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation was not that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4), as in a new surface for the earth, just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the New Earth, Christians will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve had not been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16-17). So, with regard to Christians, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Christians will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done, had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.

    So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.

    By entity do you mean a being?

    If so, what unreal being are you thinking of?

    Also, more generally, note that something can be unreal and evil, like how a sexual fantasy is both.
     
  7. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    John 6:28-29 means that for people to work the works of God, they must believe in Jesus Christ. For apart from Jesus, people cannot work any works of God (John 15:5b). And it is God's will that people do works in addition to faith (Ephesians 2:10).

    At the same time, John 6:29 can also mean that only God can cause people to become believers in Jesus (John 6:65).

    No, God requires works in addition to faith, for ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).

    That is, initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    Regarding John 6:40, compare the similar John 3:16, which is sometimes translated as "whoever believes in him shall not perish". But this is a mistranslation of the original Greek, in which the verb is in the subjunctive mood. This means that it is referring to a conditional action. So it should be translated as: "may not perish". Other, related verses show that Christians ultimately retaining their salvation is conditional on their continued belief to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 6:4-8, Colossians 1:23), their continued good works to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30), and their continued repentance to the end from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). And none of these things are assured, because of free will.

    The way to do Christian theology is not to base it on what an unqualified (in the sense of an unconditioned) verse says to Christians, but on what the entire Bible says to Christians (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4). A verse applicable to Christians in one place in the Bible must be compared with (qualified by, conditioned by) other, related verses (also applicable to Christians) elsewhere in the Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

    No, it isn't, ultimately, for obedience is also required (Hebrews 5:9).
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    re #347...(I almost didn't respond; because it seems that someone dishonestly said that my words in that post were the words of Wordkeeper...but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it must've been unintentional).
    No; for this is what John 6:28-29 really says: Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    Works done in addition to faith are done as the result of being saved; because we are new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:4-7, Ezekiel 36:25-27); and therefore the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) which is a practical love (1 John 3:17-18) that is the fulfilling of the law's righteousness within us (Romans 13:8-10, Romans 8:4).

    Because we are no longer a dog or a pig, but a sheep. Therefore it is not our nature to go back to our vomit or our wallowing in the mud; because we have been transformed into new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17, 2 Peter 2:22). I expect we are going to begin to go in circles shortly.

    We have a work of faith, a labour of love, and a patience of hope. It does not here say that works are required for salvation, but that work and faith are the result of faith and love.

    Here it says that faith worketh by love. More consistent with the idea that loving works are the result of a living faith than the idea that works are required for salvation.


    Titus 3:8 has within its context the understanding that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done. So Titus is telling the reader to exhort the church to be consistent in good works with the reasoning that this must be done in light of the fact that works don't save anyone.

    Works of the New Testament "law of Christ" don't save any more than the works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

    Romans 2:6-8 speaks of the definition of what is the attitude of faith, and that is all. I don't need to repeat myself as to what that is here, as I have already spoken of it in this thread.

    "justified" in James 2:24 in the Bible dictionary is defined as "declared righteous". Romans 4:2 tells us that if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory, but not before God. Therefore his glorying can only be before man. And his being justified, as pertains to his works, can only be before man. This is concerning salvation. Man considers whether someone is saved or not by what they do primarily. God, on the other hand, looks on the heart (1 Samuel 16:7); and therefore He judges on the basis of faith alone (Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9).

    While Matthew 7:21 appears to say that works are required for ultimate salvation, this would be inconsistent with the proper understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9. Therefore we must consider that the will of the Father is that we simply believe on Jesus Christ (John 6:28-29, John 6:40); and that works of practically doing the Father's will are the evidence that one is truly saved and therefore if we don't have them we ought to examine ourselves whether we are truly in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

    This is to be taken as an entire parable. The unprofitable servant was cast out not because he didn't do good works, but because he didn't have an attitude of real faith. He considered his Lord and Saviour to be austere and hard. He wanted Jesus as his Saviour but not as his Lord. There is a difference between being condemned over works and being condemned over an attitude that isn't faithful to do good works. Faith is an attitude that is faithful to do good works.

    Not, work "for" your salvation with fear and trembling; but work it "out" as the doing of a math problem.

    Simply says that we are to consider that we have not attained to Christian perfection; not that we are in any way saved by works.

    In context, 2 Corinthians 5:7 says that we walk by faith, not by sight. Therefore, labouring to be accepted of Him is a part of the attitude of faith and not a requirement for salvation. Also in context (2 Corinthians 5:5) it speaks of the earnest of the Spirit. Which indicates that the Holy Spirit within us motivates us towards a labour of love; because love is the result of the Holy Spirit indwelling us. Now Ephesians 1:6 declares that he hath made us accepted in the Beloved. And I would have to say that this is by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is one scripture that may be convincing for me; however, because I know that salvation (both initial and ultimate according to the reasoning I gave you) is not of works according to Ephesians 2:8-9, I conclude that my first statement is faithful, that labouring to be accepted of Him is simply a part of the attitude of a living faith; which is consistent with what I have said about how faith without works is indeed dead; while that statement is not saying that works are required for salvation; but only that those who have a living faith alone in Jesus will have a labour of love as the result, because the Holy Spirit produces that love as the result of faith (Romans 5:5)

    This, in conjunction with Acts of the Apostles 5:32, can be interpreted to mean that obedience is the result of salvation (cf. Romans 16:26); not necessarily that obedience is unto salvation.

    This scripture was never intended to preach salvation by works; but, in context, it was given to assure the saints that they have not fallen away and that the evidence of this is their work and labour of love that they had shown towards the saints.

    Yes, there is a certain diligence that is required in order to make your calling and election sure. We are to study and secure in our minds the fact that we are called of God and that we are of the elect who are predestinated unto salvation.

    The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance (Galatians 5:22-23); not works: while works may result out of us bearing such fruits as these.

    The will of God is that we believe on Him whom He hath sent (John 6:28-29, John 6:40).

    This verse can be interpreted to mean that if one is made righteous (Romans 5:19) as the free gift of God (Romans 5:15-17), that this righteousness will be practical in the believer's life and not only an imputed thing (see also Matthew 5:6).

    This indicates that if someone has a living faith in Jesus Christ, they will have works also; not that works are required for salvation.

    Actually, the fact that those who are Jesus' sheep shall never perish (John 10:27-30) and that those who hear the words of Jesus and believe on Him who sent Him shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24) is a pretty good indication that if someone has a living faith in Jesus Christ, the sealing of the Holy Spirit guarantees that they will endure unto the end; and keep His works unto the end.

    Yes, John 3:16 in the kjv translates it "should not perish". However, in Mark 16:16 and in Romans 10:13, a more absolute assurance is given with the word shall.

    I am reminded of the story of the garden where the serpent said to Eve, "Hath God really said...?"
    Hebrews 5:9, again, states not that obedience is required (as with Acts of the Apostles 5:32); but that obedience will result out of a living faith in Jesus Christ.

    I am in agreement. However, I am of the opinion that every single verse stands on its own as a bastion of biblical truth, and that immediate and topical contexts only give added insight into the reality of what each verse is saying singularily. And meditation on how contrasting verses reconcile with each other is required (see Psalms 1); so you can have insight into biblical doctrine.

    Now Ephesians 2:8-9 is where you should have begun in your understanding of doctrine; as it is the basis of our understanding of salvation (as Bible-believing Christians with an understanding of sound doctrine). We are saved by grace and not of works. That should be taken as an absolute statement, and not changed or qualified because you think other verses say something different (because you have misunderstood those verses). It (Ephesians 2:8-9) is not referring to initial salvation only; it is referring to salvation, period.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  9. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    “Flesh” is most often used to denote the Old Covenant. Paul has a burden for all Jews, even those who converted.

    Meaning for all practical purposes they are Gentiles after the Cross, and without any equivocation when the Temple was destroyed.

    No such category, since the category called Jews is composed of both Jews with Jewish mothers (who may be Gentile converts) and Gentile converts.

    Actually Hindusim is more dangerous than atheism or pagan religions. It accepts all views and is not dogmatic. It harms by blinding, destroys by declaring all views as subjective. Hinduism neutralises by accepting all views.

    You have not shown how Paganism teaches the material realm is unreal and evil. You have given a bad example of a sexual fantasy. A fantasy is not material. A thought is not material.

    Your views have so many errors, they cannot be supported. Your main point is therefore also in error since your logic in proposing premises is itself full of errors.

    The Gospel is not that God has sent a Messiah so that you can go to heaven by believing in His words and His work, which prove He is a Messiah, and confirm your belief with good works.

    The Gospel is that once again God has sent a deliverer, like Moses, who will lead God’s People into the kingdom of God, unity with God, the Rest that remained.

    Luke 7:11Soon afterwards He went to a city called Nain; and His disciples were going along with Him, accompanied by a large crowd. 12Now as He approached the gate of the city, a dead man was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow; and a sizeable crowd from the city was with her. 13When the Lord saw her, He felt compassion for her, and said to her, “Do not weep.” 14And He came up and touched the coffin; and the bearers came to a halt. And He said, “Young man, I say to you, arise!” 15The dead man sat up and began to speak. And Jesus gave him back to his mother. 16Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, “A great prophet has arisen among us!” and, “God has visited His people!” 17This report concerning Him went out all over Judea and in all the surrounding district.

    18The disciples of John reported to him about all these things. 19Summoning two of his disciples, John sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?” 20When the men came to Him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to You, to ask, ‘Are You the Expected One, or do we look for someone else?’” 21At that very time He cured many people of diseases and afflictions and evil spirits; and He gave sight to many who were blind. 22And He answered and said to them, “Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM. 23“Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.”

    ......

    Luke 11:20But if I drive out demons by the power of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.
     
  10. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

    +373
    Christian
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    It was. Carried over mistakenly from #346.

    But they won't necessarily continue, because of free will.

    For John 15:2a refers to Christians, who are branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Christians can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus Christ, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not continuing to abide in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    Regarding your reference to 2 Corinthians 5:17, note that a Christian becoming a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17) does not take away his free will. It does not turn him into a robot. So it is possible for him to wrongly employ his free will to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

    For example, Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that Christians, who have been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

    Some Christians say that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Christians need to gather together and exhort each other so that no Christian will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

    One way that a Christian could come to desire to commit a sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christians that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they commit a sin without repentance.

    Regarding your reference to Titus 3:4-7, note that 2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b); they had truly been washed (2 Peter 2:22b, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) through knowing Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:3b, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless at some subsequent point wrongly employed their free will to return back to sinning without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20b-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

    Regarding your reference to Ezekiel 36:25-27, note that in Ezekiel 36:27 the original Hebrew word (H6213) translated as "cause" can be translated as "grant" (Job 10:12), in the sense that if Christians choose to walk in God's Holy Spirit, He will grant them the ability not to fulfill the lust of the flesh (Galatians 5:16). But if Christians choose instead to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to commit sin without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Romans 8:13).

    Note that our love can grow cold (Matthew 24:12).

    But other verses say that (e.g. Romans 2:6-8).

    But not necessarily for the rest of our lives.

    For Matthew 25:26,30 shows that even someone who was a servant of Jesus Christ can ultimately lose his salvation because of unrepentant laziness. One way that a Christian could desire to become lazy without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12). Love for God means choosing to do what God says to do (1 John 5:3). So if one's love for God grows cold (Matthew 24:12), one will no longer choose to do what God says to do (John 14:24), meaning that one will become lazy in God's eyes (Matthew 25:26,30).

    It's both.

    For initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event, just as the birth of an infant is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event.

    And God grants initial salvation by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born without their works. But just as an infant after he is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if he is to remain alive, so a new Christian after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

    For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

    The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.

    Not initially, but ultimately (James 2:24).

    Note that they do, ultimately (Hebrews 5:9).

    No, it speaks of works patiently continued in.

    No, for compare the issue in James 2:14-24, which is how Christians are to be saved from hell (James 2:14b), how they are to be justified before God (James 2:23-24), just as the issue in Romans 4:1-5 is how Christians are to be saved from hell, how they are to be justified before God (cf. Romans 5:9, Romans 1:16). That is why both James 2:23-24 and Romans 4:1-5 employ the same Old Testament verse (Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, James 2:23). Romans 4:1-5 refers to initial salvation/justification before God, which is based on faith without any works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5), while James 2:23-24 refers to ultimate salvation/justification before God, which is based on both faith and works (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law).

    No, for the latter refers to initial salvation.

    Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    No, for His will is that we also do good works (Ephesians 2:10).
     
  11. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Same thing, ultimately, as involving actual performance by ourselves.

    For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

    Some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

    Philippians 3:11-15 refers to both the future resurrection of the obedient Christian dead (of all times) into physical immortality (1 Corinthians 15:52-53), and to how the apostle Paul was making sure that he would attain to it by being careful to continue to diligently follow Jesus Christ. Attainment is actually arriving at the goal. Christians' own actions will determine whether or not they will attain ultimate salvation from hell (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Hebrews 5:9).

    It's both.

    For 2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Titus 3:8, and Romans 2:6-8 show that Christians themselves must actually labor, together with God. Ultimate salvation is synergistic, because Christians can end up losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to stop their laboring, to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

    2 Corinthians 5:5, like Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, and 2 Corinthians 1:22, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

    No, for saved people can ultimately become disobedient (Matthew 25:26,30).

    Also, note that Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that Christians are robots. For if Christians cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved. For no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere, and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

    But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if, after he became a Christian, he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6), and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy-times-seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin, and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

    No, it's the other way around, in that their work is what will ultimately bring them to salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

    But only unto initial salvation.

    That is, election (God's choosing) does determine salvation (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), but only initial salvation (Acts 13:48b), not ultimate salvation. For ultimate salvation will depend on the continued obedience of Christians subsequent to their initial salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9).

    No, the fruit of the Spirit is also works (Philippians 2:13).

    And also that we do good works (Ephesians 2:10).

    John 10:28-29 means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

    Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

    John 5:24 refers to salvation in the sense of Christians' present, spiritual salvation, instead of the still-future, ultimate redemption of their physical bodies (Romans 8:23-25). John 5:24 means that a Christian will not ultimately come into condemnation, as in an ultimate loss of salvation, so long as he continues to the end to believe (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23, John 15:6), to perform good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, John 15:2a), and to repent from every sin that he commits (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). All Christians will be judged (2 Corinthians 5:10).

    Romans 10:13 refers to initial salvation, not ultimate salvation (Matthew 7:21).

    And Mark 16:16 means that in order to be saved ultimately, Christians must get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16). If people believe with all of their heart that Jesus Christ is the human/divine Son of God (Acts 8:37), then they can get baptized anywhere there is water (Acts 8:36) into which they can be fully-immersed (buried) (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12). They need to make sure to be baptized in the name of God the Father; and of the Son, Jesus Christ; and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38). Christians can get water-immersion baptized at, for example, a Baptist-type congregation.

    Besides getting water baptized, Christians can get Holy Spirit baptized (Acts 11:15-16, Acts 10:44-46). They usually have to ask to receive the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13b) baptism, for it is usually not given to them automatically at the moment that they become Christians. That is why the apostle Paul at one point asked some Christians: "Have ye received the Holy Spirit since ye believed?" (Acts 19:2).

    Christians usually receive Holy Spirit baptism through prayer accompanied by the laying on of hands, subsequent to water baptism (Acts 8:15-17, Acts 19:5-6). Holy Spirit baptism will not result in the speaking in tongues for everyone (1 Corinthians 12:30), but for almost everyone, as tongues are one of the Spirit's lesser gifts (1 Corinthians 12:8-11,28; 1 Corinthians 14:5). Many Christians have not yet experienced Holy Spirit baptism simply because they have not yet asked for it, under the principle of: "ye have not, because ye ask not" (James 4:2b). Many Christians have not yet asked for it because they have come under the influence of mistaken teachings which say that it is no longer in effect. Christians can get hands laid on them to receive Holy Spirit baptism at any Pentecostal-type congregation, or at any charismatic-type congregation, which can be of almost any denomination.

    Initial salvation, not ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).
     
  12. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    It can mean that (Romans 7:5). But in Romans 9:3-5, it's referring to literal flesh, as in Romans 1:3.

    No, they are still genetic Jews (Acts 22:3).

    That's right.

    And just as it can be not in accordance with reality, so Gnosticism, Buddhism, and Hinduism say that even the material realm is not in accordance with reality, which they say must be purely-spiritual.

    Of course it is (John 3:16, Romans 2:6-8).

    Same thing.

    For presently the Kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). And in the future, the Kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then forever on the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-8), as in a new surface for the earth.

    Jesus Christ's Kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at His future, Second Coming, He will sit on the earthly throne of King David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in His humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' Second Coming, He will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And He will bring salvation to all of the still-living, non-Christian elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, non-Christian elect Jews) will become Christians when they see Jesus at His Second Coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the Church at that time. For there are no Christians outside of the Church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    After Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected Church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the Church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).

    Note that the transfiguration of Jesus Christ was also a coming of the Kingdom of God with power (Mark 9:1-9, Luke 9:27-36), in the same sense that Jesus' previous and subsequent casting out of devils was a coming of the Kingdom of God with power (Matthew 12:28, Luke 11:20). That is, such events showed that God's power had come to the earth in the person of Jesus Christ at His first coming.

    So Matthew 16:28, Luke 9:27, and Mark 9:1 were fulfilled at the subsequent transfiguration (Matthew 16:28 to 17:9, Luke 9:27-36, Mark 9:1-9; 2 Peter 1:16-18). Just as the "power", "coming", and "majesty" in 2 Peter 1:16 refer to the transfiguration in 2 Peter 1:17-18, so the "power", "coming", and "kingdom" in Mark 9:1, Matthew 16:28, and Luke 9:27 refer to the subsequent transfiguration in Mark 9:2-9, Matthew 17:1-9, and Luke 9:28-36.

    Regarding Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming in Matthew 16:27, Luke 9:26, and Mark 8:38, Jesus Christ will return "in like manner" as He ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of His first coming, He was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud and on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Luke 24:39), so at His future, Second Coming, He will be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Revelation 1:7, Matthew 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and set His feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-21).
     
  13. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    Paul wasn't narrow minded. He wanted to help all Jews, who were hardened because God has mercy on whom He wishes to have mercy, and He decided not to have mercy on Jews, by sending a stone to Zion, jesus, the righteousness of God, both those born from a Jewish mother, as well as Gentiles who converted, who were seeking a righteousness to the seed of Abraham, identified by flesh, the old Covenant, by circumcision and mikvah, a righteousness of their own.

    No such category. Naturally born Jews can even be the progeny of Gentiles who have converted.

    So your examples of a sexual fantasy being an example of evil material realm is wrong. The material realm is not unreal. A sexual fantasy is not an example of the unreal material realm.

    Questions

    1. 1 Did God command Adam to complete, perfect, tame creation?
    Genesis 1:28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”



    1. 2. Was Adam warned not to change from not knowing good from evil to knowing good from evil to avoid death?
    Genesis 2:16And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

    1. 3. Did Adam die, get separated from God?
    Genesis 3:6When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

    8Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

    1. 4. Without the finger of God, the Kingdom of God, could Adam be saved, have purpose in life, gather treasure that never perishes, by subduing Creation?

    Genesis 3:17To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

    “Cursed is the ground because of you;

    through painful toil you will eat food from it

    all the days of your life.

    18It will produce thorns and thistles for you,

    and you will eat the plants of the field.

    19By the sweat of your brow

    you will eat your food

    until you return to the ground,

    since from it you were taken;

    for dust you are

    and to dust you will return.”


    1. 5. Was the gospel, the coming amongst men of the finger of God, the Kingdom of God, Rest, the means by which men could be in unity with God, to subdue creation, to earn riches that does not perish, preached by Moses?

    Hebrews 3:18And to whom did He swear that they would never enter His rest? Was it not to those who disobeyed?

    Hebrews 4:2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

    Exodus 8:19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.











    6. Was the access to the Kingdom of God, blocked by God, by swearing Israel would never enter Rest?



    Deuteronomy 1:35"Not one of the men of this evil generation shall see the good land I swore to give your fathers,


    7. Does a Rest still remain to be entered by the People of God?

    Hebrews 4:6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

    7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

    “TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

    DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

    8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.


    Did Jesus declare that the access to the kingdom of God was again opened, proved by the manifestation of the Finger of God?

    Luke 11:20But if I drive out demons by the finger of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

    1. 8. Is the gospel the news that men could again have an opportunity to enter the Kingdom of God because God had again sent a Deliverer like Moses?

    Matthew 11:5the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, thedead are raised up, and the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.


    Luke 4: 16And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. 17And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,

    18“THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME,
    BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR.
    HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES,
    AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND,
    TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,

    19TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD.”
    20And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”



    Acts 3:22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You must listen to Him in everything He tells you.


    9. Could men now live a life, be in a new Man, a new humanity, with a purpose, to gather treasure that never perishes, have a Country to call their own, called the Body of Christ, because of the gospel?

    Hebrews 11:13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

    John 15:7"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

    Hebrews 4:10for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,e just as God did from his.

    Matthew 11:28“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

    Exodus 33:14And He said, “My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest.”

    See above.
     
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    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that God has mercy on elect Jews (Romans 9:23-24).

    Indeed, Jesus Christ's Gospel of salvation even goes to Jews first (Romans 1:16, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24, Acts 3:26), and salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22b), because salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered by God to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16). And all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    No, for no one is born a Jew unless his mother is a genetic Jew.

    Note that it has not been said that the material realm is evil.

    Only pagan religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, and Gnosticism think that.

    Instead, the example of a sexual fantasy was given to show that something can be both unreal and evil.

    But the material realm is neither.

    Gnostic writings are rejected by Biblical Christians as being not from God. For Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of the Bible, as an evil god, while Jesus Christ affirms that YHWH is the one true God (Mark 12:29-31, quoting from Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18). Also, Gnosticism denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), while Jesus Christ affirms that He is in the flesh (Luke 24:39, John 1:14, Romans 1:3, Hebrews 2:16-17). Also, Gnosticism claims that the Old Testament is false because it was written by YHWH and His followers, while Jesus Christ affirms that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Also, even where Gnostic writings teach something not in the Bible which does not contradict anything which Jesus taught, the Gnostic writings still do not pass the test of Biblical Christians being able to recognize if something said is from Jesus (John 10:4,27), or only from "a stranger" (John 10:5). Biblical Christians are able to do this because they have received a measure of God's own Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11-13), Jesus Christ's own mind (1 Corinthians 2:16).

    Gnosticism was one of the greatest enemies of the early Church. And Gnostic ideas will be revived worldwide by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), who will make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). As a Gnostic, the Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And he will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will also deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

    The "gnosis" of Gnosticism is the so-called "knowledge" which Christians must be careful not to be deceived by: "avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of gnosis falsely so called" (1 Timothy 6:20; see the original Greek).

    Besides being a Gnostic, the future Antichrist will at the same time also be a Luciferian, that is, a Satanist.

    And Christians need to be aware that during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this will not require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he is not the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the Gospel by which people become saved from hell (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

    So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this would not require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' Second Coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' Second Coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned (via "reincarnation"). And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' Second Coming will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), also called Satanism, a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times the prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

    The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and to kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus Christ confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus suffered and died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And He rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

    Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the future Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which almost everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And the Antichrist could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved King David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply mean that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same person.

    Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said: "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said: "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

    But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12), and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified Himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24) returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

    Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

    So the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the world. The world will have been expecting to wage war against some evil Old Testament god named "YHWH" with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet), and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer), and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist), and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9). But then, instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH suffering and dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).

    When the people of the world realize at that moment how thoroughly they have been duped, and see in the sky the huge angelic armies (2 Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:31) of the true Jesus, the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, then they could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15-21).
     
  17. Wordkeeper

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    Note that the theme is God has mercy on whichever group He wishes to have mercy on, in one case Jews or Gentiles

    Romans 9:30What then will we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attainedit.

    Note that one group has mercy shown, Gentiles, and the other has it withdrawn, Israel. This is done by making the qualifications of being a Jew to be called the Children of God null and void, by closing the Old Covenant and destroying the Temple, in effect making Jews unclean by both doctrine and practice, belief and deed. God’s people can now be called out from all groups, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. In fact calling yourself a Jew and depending on Jewish practices is a disadvantage because God has withdrawn mercy from the Jews by closing the Covenant and destroying the Temple.

    Romans 9:16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

    Romans 11:11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous

    Provide Scriptural proof please. Note that Ruth was a Gentile convert and her children were considered naturally born Jews.

    Your original statement from #329:

    The material realm is unreal and evil.

    These texts are subject to interpretation, are in the future and have little to do with the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, which commands abandoning Egypt/Baal/Mammon/self interest and following God. Be specific in answering how you have abandoned the world or asked for terms of peace, the only two options available on hearing the Gospel.
     
  18. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    The theme in Romans 9:11:24 is that God has mercy on whichever individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, He wishes to have mercy on. And they are the elect.

    That is, the elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

    Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). And so it is impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13), through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65), or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people cannot understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18), because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

    Nonelect people cannot ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they are shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to elect individuals (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians, so that on their own they cannot repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

    -

    Also, God does not love everyone, for He hates nonelect individuals (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens nonelect individuals in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them, or anyone else, to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All individuals will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of individuals.

    God created nonelect individuals to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect individuals to be vessels of His mercy so that He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

    God wants these aspects of His character to be known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath will not be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels, and all non-Christians of all times, are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth (as in a new surface for the earth) to witness the suffering of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy cannot be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.

    Paul means that Israel could not be saved by the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Acts 13:39). He was not contradicting that many elect Israelites, including himself, had become Christians (Romans 11:1-6).

    Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Note that this cannot mean that there are no Christians who are Jews or Gentiles in any sense, for Christians remain either genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b). Similarly, Galatians 3:28 does not mean that there are no Christians who are males or females, for we are still males or females with regard to our genitals, and with regard to other matters (1 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Corinthians 14:34-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-16; 1 Peter 3:7a).

    So Galatians 3:28 can only mean that there is no distinction between Jewish and Gentile Christians, or between male and female Christians, with regard to them being "one in Christ" (Galatians 3:28b), in the sense of them being one body in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 4:4-6), without distinction with regard to their Christian salvation (Romans 10:12; 1 Corinthians 12:13; 1 Peter 3:7b).

    They weren't genetic Jews, or were only half-so from their father. And they only became Jews religiously when they were circumcised (Leviticus 12:3), just as Gentiles living among the Israelites only became Jews religiously when they were circumcised (Exodus 12:48).

    But Ruth is still a great example for Christians.

    For just as the Gentile Ruth (a genetic forbear of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, Luke 3:23-32) could say to the Israelite Naomi: "thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God" (Ruth 1:16), so Gentiles in the Church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29).

    That is, all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire Church is the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the Church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of Gentile Christians being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A Gentile Christian can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into by God, and he will receive an answer, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

    Also, all those in the Church, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have been made spiritually-circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

    The statement was:

    Gnosticism has some core teachings in common with Buddhism and Hinduism:

    1. The material realm is unreal and evil. (Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Maya", from Hinduism.)

    The Gospel indeed requires that we not serve Mammon (Matthew 6:24).

    Indeed, people must forsake everything that they have if they are to be Jesus Christ's disciples (Luke 14:33).

    When you hear Jesus Christ say to you: "Come and follow Me" (Luke 18:22), you must walk away from everything but the clothes on your back (Luke 18:23, Luke 9:59-62, Matthew 19:29). He may have you walk only as far as the city limits and then turn around and go back home, as long as you were willing to keep going indefinitely. Or, He may ask you to keep going, until He has separated your soul from all attachment to the temporary things of this fallen world (1 John 2:15-17; James 4:4; 2 Timothy 4:10, John 12:25-26).
     
  19. Wordkeeper

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    The Old Covenant, of Works, was not bad, was recognised by God, just as Hagar and Ishmael were recognised and protected by God, even though they were the result of human effort to fulfill God’s promise, a righteousness of men, not God. To understand how the Law was recognised and protected by God until the result of a promise, the New Covenant arrived, let’s lay out what the Old Covenant, Law, could do.

    God had promised, unconditionally, that the world would be blessed through Abraham’s seed. In addition, He allowed Hagar, the Old Covenant, to be conceived by men. Since the blessing is through a promise, Abraham’s seed would be sent by God. not created/begotten by men (through circumcision). Keep this in mind.

    Theoretical Function
    The Old Covenant required conformation to all its requirements: if Israel failed in one, it failed in all. On meeting all requirements perfectly, God would make a situation arise where Jews would be blessed, and surrounding nations would in turn be blessed, by becoming Jews. Two points must be noted: one, perfect compliance could never be met, because of the weakness of the flesh. Second, this did not mean those who failed, who observed imperfectly, would perish. Law had provision for failure: Israel could be cleansed by the Tabernacle.

    In one sense, Law was a blessing to the world until fulfillment, the Son of the Promise was given. Law was a babysitter, paid servant, till the natural caregiver family members, parents, Grace, came home. However, it required proper understanding of how the Covenant of Law functioned.


    Practical Function
    Israel needed to observe all the requirements of the Law, the minor as well as the more important parts. Since perfect observance was not possible because of the weakness of the flesh, Israel would be justified by asking for forgiveness, this plea being expressed through sacrifice in the Tabernacle, which would signify confession of failure, inability to cleanse one self and dependence on another, on mercy, expressed by the life of the sacrificial animal. When the necessity of observance of all the requirements of the Law, both minor and important was believed in and attempted, failure recognised and overlooking asked for, through sacrifice, God would bless Israel. This was not difficult, no one had to ascend to heaven looking for Christ, resurrection, raising up, forgiveness, because The Old Covenant was complete, adequate, perfect enough to protect against perishing.

    This is what is meant by the parable of the unfaithful tenants. God had prepared a vineyard, blessing for the world, and Israel was supposed to look after the vineyard, observe Torah, so that the nations around Israel would see the blessings God gave Israel, and become Jews.

    However, Israel did not like how the Old Covenant functioned. They loved money and blessings, earthly riches. They knew God would bless them if they followed the Old Covenant as servants of God, but wanted to receive blessings by serving themselves. Instead of serving God, practicing justice, mercy and righteousness, they preferred to use selfish means to gather riches. They figured that God was obliged to bless them since He had unconditionally promised Abraham that his seed would have the privilege of being a blessing to the world. They concluded that Abraham’s seed would be identified by circumcision and food laws, becoming and staying Jewish. They picked out a set of rules that was specific to Judaism and taught that these were the necessary laws to observe to be considered Abraham's seed. In doing this, they had bowed their knees to Baal, serving self for earthly riches, instead of God, for heavenly treasure.

    God sent prophets to teach the right way of following the Old Covenant, to make the righteous people in nations around Israel, people who were observing the Law even when they did not possess it, observing justice, mercy and righteousness, sheep of another flock, into People of God, people circumcised in spirit and confessed/expressed in the flesh. But the prophets never saw the returns of the vineyard. Instead Israel would travel far and wide, making proselytes who would turn out to be greater devils than themselves.

    Matthew 23:"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

    We can see how the vineyard was benefiting the Jews, who were receiving more converts, but not benefiting God, who had installed the vineyard, the system in order to receive more lost sheep into His fold, His People. Of course the Old Covenant did not justify fully, make God's People blessings to the world, else there would have been no need to send Christ:

    Galatians 2:For if righteousness comes through the Law, Christ died for nothing.”

    When God did send His own Son, the wicked tenants saw that they would lose their privileged position and plotted to kill the Heir, so they could continue to enjoy the blessing from the vineyard, more Jewish converts.

    Summary
    God made Judaism a vessel of dishonor. In giving them a Covenant which could be wrongly interpreted if Israel was tempted to seek selfish interest, He made them fall because of the great temptation to do just that. When Israel complained about being set up, asked why they were to blame, that they had been cut off without doing evil or good, that they were just following the Law, which was made ineffective by the weakness of the flesh, Paul said that God decided to have mercy on whichever flock He wanted to have mercy. Remember, God was not condemning individuals. He was withdrawing mercy from Judaism. If individuals wanted to be included in the People of God, they could always come into the other flock, entry of which was by following conscience, following justice, mercy and righteousness, by loyalty to God..

    The requirement to enter Judaism, God’s original flock, was physical circumcision, works of the Law. Now the requirements to enter the other flock was loyalty to Christ. Since Israel Had refused to accept Christ as the true seed, seeking to validate their own right to be the righteous seed, instead of seeking the righteousness of God, Christ, as promised by Scripture which said seed, not seeds, they transgressed and were cut off, and the vineyard was given to another flock. I repeat, Israel would not accept the interpretation of seed to be a gift, an individual sent by God, twisting both the grammar of the text as well as the metaphor of Isaac.

    If this was true, then you would see the text including Gentile complaints against God for hardening them. Instead the complaint is only from Israel which was hardened in its unbelief of Christ. They wanted their own righteousness, Judaism, and not the righteousness of God,Christ.

    The reason Israel did not obtain it was they thought they were the seed, not Christ. Gentiles never had any promise of the seed being the blessing to the world, so they were never spoiled by the feeling of entitlement that Israel had, which stubbornly pursued it, an entitlement that would be shattered when the Rock appeared in Zion, a stumbling block to their dreams. Gentiles just tried to do good works, a direct understanding of what God would have wanted, as prompted by their conscience, without boasting about a righteousness that God had gifted them.

    Wrong. At one time there was restriction on who could be called to be chosen: the person had to be a Jew. Now, after the Cross, there was no restriction, because Israel had transgressed, she was cut off, disqualified, so the people called out could be from the Gentile flock. Bottomline, Israel’s transgressions removed her special privileges. Israel was no longer a distinctive nation: a holy nation, a nation of priests, a royal people, belonging to God,. The Body of Christ now is.

    It’s clear that there is no such thing as a genetic Jew. A Jew is a person who observes the Old Covenant. Like Ruth. About twenty years ago I had a debate with a professor of the Hebrew University in the Judaism Section of a Forum. I quoted articles which showed that Jews adopted the practice of recognising children of women raped by the Assyrians as Jews, because they would otherwise have had to cut off, turn away their own daughters and grandchildren. There was no Biblical basis for the decision. Strangely, all those articles/commentaries have since disappeared from the 'Net.

    Today the remaining Biblical basis for deciding who is a Jew does depend on the mother being Jewish, but the support from Scripture is still quite weak.

    That is contradictory and could never have been stated by any religion. It's like saying a square is a circle. Both are mutually exclusive, as is the statement that the material realm is unreal.

    Just answer the question. What have you opted for:

    Abandoning mammon to serve God?

    Or

    Asked for terms of peace?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  20. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that I didn't say that.

    Is that what you are saying?

    If so, note that the verse you quoted is actually Romans 9:3, not Romans 3:3.

    Also, regarding Romans 9:3, it's referring to genetic Jews, those who are of the same "flesh" as the apostle Paul, who is a genetic Jew (Acts 22:3).

    Also, it should be pointed out that whereas all genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5), being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, is not based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

    All Jewish and Gentile Christians are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Jewish and Gentile Christians are heirs of all of the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

    Also compare Romans 9:8, in which by "the children of the flesh", the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

    Originally, before your latest edit, you had simply said: "The Old Covenant was complete, adequate, perfect."

    So your edit was apt:

    Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

    Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
    19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

    Not at all:

    Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    Regarding "a vessel of dishonor" (Romans 9:21), that refers synecdochically to the same thing as the multiple "vessels of wrath" (Romans 9:22), who are nonelect individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22).

    Romans 9:15 refers to elect individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles (Romans 9:23-24).

    Only elect individuals can do that (John 6:65), not nonelect individuals (John 8:42-47).

    All Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). And Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire Church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the Church (Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the Church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7-8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus Christ is (Galatians 3:16,29). So both Jewish and Gentile Christians are heirs of all of the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).

    Note that Romans 9:19-20 refers to any man, whether Jew or Gentile, such as Pharaoh (Romans 9:17-22).

    Also, regarding Romans 9:19, God yet finds fault because double predestination does not take away the free will of nonelect people, just as it does not take away the free will of elect people. That is, God will condemn nonelect people for their own free-willed sins (James 1:13-15), which He simply chooses not to forgive, but to harden nonelect people in them.

    No, for there are Christian Jews as well as Christian Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:13). So only "some" (in the sense of not all) Jews are cut off from the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17a) because of their unbelief in Jesus Christ (Romans 11:20) and His saving New Covenant Passover death on the Cross for our sins (1 Corinthians 5:7b, Matthew 26:28). Compare the Old Covenant cutting off of only some Israelites from Israel if they failed to keep the Old Covenant Passover (Numbers 9:13).

    Also, in Romans 11:17,24, the metaphor is not just about people-groups, but is also about individuals within those people-groups. For just as all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus Christ (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish Christians remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile Christians have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so that they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This does not mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile Christian becomes a genetic Jew, but means that Gentile Christians, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).

    Originally, before your latest edit, you had said:

    "Jews adopted the practice of recognising children of women raped by the Assyrians as Jews because they would otherwise have had to turn away their own daughters."

    For being raped? That would depend on what the women did during the rape (Deuteronomy 22:23-27).

    Note that half-Jewish offspring, so long as the mother was a genetic Jew, could be accepted by Israel (1 Kings 7:14).

    But half-Jewish offspring could be sent away if the mothers were Gentiles (Ezra 10:3).

    No, for a sexual fantasy is both unreal and evil. And the material realm can be (mistakenly) claimed to be unreal, compared with a purely-spiritual realm.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
  21. Wordkeeper

    Wordkeeper Newbie

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    No verse in the text exists which shows Gentiles complaining about being arbitrarily being made vessels of dishonor. All complaints are made by Israel.

    No belief system claims the material realm is unreal. If you continue to claim that to be true, your posts have lost credibility, are incoherent.
     
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