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Featured What is the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I think I know...

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by devin553344, Aug 18, 2017.

  1. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    That we see in Scripture...?
     
  2. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Over and over again perhaps...?

    How many things are like that in Scripture...?
     
  3. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    Unless you believe it was an actual tree with fruit. Some God created mechanism that gave knowledge of good and evil. Then how, we have spirits kept in heaven awaiting bodies here on earth, surely it didn't change the spirits in heaven, what Adam and Eve did. Then it must have changed the bodies of them. The bible tells us we're born into sin, and sin is of the flesh, spirit is different, etc.

    And if I am to believe in something like that, then it was a body changing mechanism, and genetic in nature. And then perhaps I should believe the scientists who say meat changes the genetics over time and makes ape-like humans more into modern humans of intellect and knowledge.

    Or at least that was how I came to my "assumption" that scientists might have something that could be considered. Or I can deny the scientists and say God had a mechanism that does the same or "similar" being a knowledge bringing fruit. Or you could say that it was knowledge itself. Then it would have to be passed down from generation to generation. Leaving the body out of it?

    I'm not sure what other possibilities exist? Unless your saying the Bible and the word of God is the knowledge of good and evil?
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  4. AlexDTX

    AlexDTX Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Herbivores. Vegan is still a religious expression as is the word vegetarian.

    I don't know about the tree of knowledge, but I do know what the fruit of the tree of life was. The Hebrew word for life is hava. Therefore it was the hava-cado tree.:oldthumbsup:
     
  5. GirdYourLoins

    GirdYourLoins Well-Known Member

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    It was disobeying God. When they ate the fruit they disobeyed God and sin came into their lives. They had a perfect existence and all they had to do was obey God and not eat from a couple of tree's. What tree it was is, I think, unimportant. The tree and fruit wasnt the issue. Obeying God was. When they ate the fruit, the knowledge of good and evil was knowing they had disobeyed God so they became aware of their guilt in disobeying him (evil) which led to their understanding that obeying God is good and self awareness of their bodies and their nakedness.
     
  6. JackRT

    JackRT Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I do not read the Genesis myth as a fall from an original state of perfection into sin and death. The first couple were completely innocent and naive creatures. They were certainly capable of making a mistake but, without knowing good from evil, they lacked even the ability to sin. That ability came only with them eating of the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". To me the story is a "coming of age story". Our mythical first couple graduated from animal status into to fully self aware human beings capable of making moral judgments. This is not an Original Sin story but rather an Original Blessing story that should be celebrated. We are not a people fallen from an original state of perfection into sin and death. What we are is a people that is still evolving. We are no longer "just animals" but something more.

    Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a world where there was real good and evil.
     
  7. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Handmaid of God † CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    Very good, generally.

    The only issue is with the word "perfect".

    If you mean their existence was unblemished, then that is true. But sometimes "perfection" is intended to mean completed, or matured, and this is what they lacked.

    It has been accepted and understood though, as you say, that it was the very act of disobeying God that changed them. Not a magical fruit.

    :)
     
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  8. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    I see your point, I would think higher reasoning and intelligence, is required to even know the difference between good and evil. Dogs and cats don't wear clothes and don't know they're naked (I think), and it says they found evidence that showed that neanderthals wore clothes, suggesting they either saw they were naked or wanted to keep warm. Neanderthals being more intelligent than animals.
     
  9. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    The fish fry was in the gospels and Christ ate meat after His resurrection and had no problem with his disciples being meat eaters. That last is the main point.

    Not that I believe we'll eat meat in the new world - but exactly where does it say that meat eating is done away with? I don't see it anywhere.
    Are you Mormon?
     
  10. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    No I am not Mormon technically I follow Catholic unless God has directed me otherwise, do you find spirits in heaven a Mormon belief? And if so or if not, either way, what exactly is Mormon to you?

    I would think a spirit and body are a Christian belief:

    1 Thessalonians {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  11. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I though you were likely Catholic because of your previous comment about Jesus feeding us on bread and wine in the future.

    Then I thought perhaps you were Mormon because of the spirits in Heaven awaiting physical bodies comment.
    What do you mean technically?
    Yes.
    There are many Mormon and anti Mormon publications on paper and online that will tell you all about it.

    Although I do believe that many Mormons will be saved in spite of what they have been involved in - what Mormonism is to me is a cult which preaches a different gospel than the one delivered to me in the scriptures.

    My thoughts are the same concerning Roman Catholicism as practiced by many people.

    Leeriness about different gospels is why I tried to pin you down earlier about whether all this talk about unclean eating tied into your concept of either gaining or retaining salvation in the basic sense.

    I never did get that clear.

    Does not eating meat have any connection to being saved in your understanding? Can one lose their salvation by eating unclean things?

    Don't just quote passages again about the desirability of not being unclean. Answer the salvation question directly if you would.

    Thanks!
     
  12. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    yes, it can be said that the original sin (has) consisted in "eating" of "meat", but only in the spiritual sense of the words (which is figurative rather than literal), because the original sin has been spiritual unrighteousness/lawlessness/wickedness, initially in the form of esoterism/occultism, and, according to the biblical terms, "meat" is esoteric/occult, idolatrous or heretical spiritual/religious practice, which is why St Paul says:

    1 Corinthians 8:1-8 (AKJV) "Now as touching things offered to idols(i.e. as for things that are idolatrous or heretical), we know that we all have knowledge(i.e. usually it has been so that spiritual/religious people has been inclined to think they have knowledge to (re)solve the problem). Knowledge puffs up, but charity edifies(i.e. but knowledge as a main direction of faith leads to pride/haughtiness, while love — to humility/edification). And if any man think that he knows any thing(i.e. any thing in this regard), he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man love God, the same is known of him. As concerning therefore the eating of(i.e. as for the act of following/practicing) those things that are offered in sacrifice to idols(or: spiritual/religious things that are unrighteous/heretical), we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many(also: and many christs),) But to us(i.e. but actually the truth applying to all humans in this regard is that) there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. However, there is not in every man that knowledge(i.e. that belief/understanding/consciousness): for some with conscience of the idol to this hour eat it as a thing offered to(i.e. practice the faith in favor/service of) an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. But meat(i.e. but occultism/idolatry/heretical religiosity) commends us not to God: for neither, if we eat(i.e. if we follow/practice it), are we the better; neither, if we eat not(i.e. if we do not follow/practice it), are we the worse.",

    1 Corinthians 10:25-26 "Whatever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: For the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof."

    so here is how the spiritual "eating" of spiritual "meat" is what God doesn't recommend, while the physical eating of physical animal meat is not unclean by itself

    Blessings
     
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  13. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    Technically goes with the word Catholic in the sentence, sorry I should have used a comma, I'm technically Catholic, although I'm open to the best theologies I can comprehend.

    I don't have any beliefs of about clean or unclean meats, I think unclean refers to the possibility to catch disease from animals, but that's just my OT opinion. Technically I eat meat! And I don't consider if it's clean or unclean biblically. Christ took care of that.

    I used to be LDS, so maybe there are some residual beliefs from that religion, so please correct me if I stated something that was not a Christian belief. In that regard, there is clearly from the bible a body and spirit, so if we get a body here on earth, when is our spirit created? since the bible seems to say nothing about spirit creation I can only assume our spirits reside with God before this life here on earth. Is that incorrect to you?
     
  14. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Handmaid of God † CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    Spirits in heaven awaiting bodies may be something Mormons teach (I don't know), but it is certainly not an exclusively Mormon doctrine.

    It is what all of Christianity believed, until perhaps some more recent confusion.

    When (Christian) people die, their spirits go to be with the Lord. Their bodies go in the ground. So their spirits are with the Lord (in "heaven" if you will) awaiting bodies. At the resurrection of the dead which will come at the end of this age, all bodies will be resurrected, and reunited with spirits. We will one again be human persons, as created by God, body and spirit.

    This is Christian doctrine.

    I don't know how Mormons see it though.
     
  15. -V-

    -V- Well-Known Member

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    This is how I understand it:

    The tree was just a tree, and its fruit was just fruit. In and of themselves, they had no special/magical qualities. They were simply the method by which God chose for Adam & Eve to demonstrate obedience. In order for things like love, devotion, and obedience to have any meaning, there must exist the option to not do those things. There had to be at least one rule that Adam & Eve had the choice to either follow or disobey, and that one tree was it.

    Now, what is “knowledge of good and evil”?

    Was it simply knowing right from wrong? That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. God commanded them to not eat from the tree. Such a command makes no sense if Adam & Eve didn’t know right from wrong. In order to obey, they had to already know that obey is right, disobey is wrong. God subsequently punishing them for disobeying also makes little sense if they had no understanding that disobeying was the wrong choice.

    So, if it’s not simple factual awareness of right & wrong, what is it? We need to look at how the Old Testament uses “know”. For one, we see God using it in a seemingly odd way in regards to Abraham’s attempted sacrifice of Isaac. After stopping it, God says, “for now I KNOW that you fear God.” Wait, what? Something God didn’t know before? God is omniscient and not bound by time. So God *MUST* have already had factual awareness that Abraham feared God and would pass the test. The only thing that has changed was that this test hadn’t happened yet, and now it has - it was now at this point in time actually experienced. So we have “knowing” being tied to actual experience, and not simple factual awareness.

    This connection to experience is further demonstrated in an often used euphemism in the Old Testament - “knowing” a woman. We often see mention of a man “knowing” a woman or “knowing” his wife, and it’s a euphemism for sex. What is sex? It can be described as a man gaining a personal, intimate experience with a woman, can’t it? Once again, a connection between “know” and personal experience.

    So, what does it mean that they gained “knowledge” of good & evil? It means they now had personal experience with it. They already had factual awareness of right & wrong, but it wasn’t until actually disobeying that they gained the personal experience with evil/wrong.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
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  16. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Good IMO. That's about where I stand.

    Often times folks who come from a background with what I would call a convoluted view of the salvation process easily fall into beliefs which add certain stipulations to the gospel message.

    It's nice to see you are not linking any "uncleanness" which may occur from eating certain meats to salvation. A couple of things you said made me question that.
    You are correct as I see it to say that the Bible says nothing about the mechanisms of our spirit creation. IMO, that being the case, it is best to not assume anything other than that when physical life begins spirit life begins as well.

    Most see God creating us "wonderfully" through knitting us together in our mother's womb to include somehow producing both body and spirit. Of course it could be different and we'll see when we get to look at things more clearly.

    Anastasia has informed us that spirit beings awaiting a body is also an Eastern Orthodox view. I'll bow to her expertise in the matter.

    But in the west that is most often associated with Mormon teaching. Of course with them there is a lot more to it than that. There is a teaching about our becoming "Gods" in the process. Also that Satan and Jesus were spirit brothers etc. is a teaching which compounds an error in thinking along the lines of spirits being generated by God through union with a "Mrs. God" and other such Mormon non-sense.
     
  17. devin553344

    devin553344 I believe in the Resurrection

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    That's an interesting view I never conceived before: That "I am" of people, the eye of the soul, didn't exist before being conceived in the womb. So in your view, technically I didn't exist before I was a single cell becoming a fetus. Interesting.
     
  18. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    This is one of the questions we will all enjoy getting the answer to on the other side of things.

    The only light the scriptures give us on the matter is when the spirit is present in the womb. Apparently that's pretty early on since John the Baptist's spirit recognized the spirit of Jesus very shortly after the conception of Jesus.

    John the Baptist's peculiar case is the only insight we have where a preexisting spirit (Elijah's) was assigned a body after already existing.

    As to when the spirit itself is usually created we don't know for sure. I have no particular axe to grind in the matter. Nor do I have a firm opinion.

    It seems to me that it doesn't matter much if one believes that God creates the spirit in Heaven or if He does it in the womb of the mother.

    That is so long as a person doesn't take their belief that the creation of the spirit was in Heaven to the extremes taken by Mormons.
     
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  19. ~Anastasia~

    ~Anastasia~ † Handmaid of God † CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    John the Baptist was not Elijah reincarnated, by the way. He came "in the spirit of Elijah" ... he was a prophet like Elijah.

    Elijah himself was in a blessed state, and would come briefly during the Transfiguration.
     
  20. Blade

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    Hmm.. I am 56..and some things said here.. a.. yeah.. I never heard or thought of. Anytime we get in to "speculation" ANYTHING can become truth. Careful when you walk in that :) I have heard read things about the TREE of life and tree of knowledge. Never looked like a tree.. only one one fruit.. on and on.

    Do you know how many KNOW it was just a test? Now.. not here to tell GOD what He should have done but..WOW...He missed it with the Angels huh. No test for them. Did GOD know Satan was going to fall? Well sin was not KNOWN to be in Satan. It was as it is written.. FOUND in him. Thats says so much right there. We know that Satan had already had the fall before man was made. ...you know..

    When you get into SPECULATION you can make ANYTHING become truth. So we were born into sin all of us ARE. Adam and Eve both sinned. They never signed anything..never agreed to anything. Yet look what they handed over to Satan. That was not talked about was not agreed on. So THINK before you SIN. In this WORLD there is a PRICE to sin. Forgiven.. praise GOD..but.. we cant freely sin. That will have a price and a tiny lie.. will not come back as a lie..but can be so much GREATER to HURT to HARM. We look out into this world and SEE what is written. The wages of SIN is death. SIN always causes DEATH.

    Jesus told one..go and sin no more..or your lost forever? Lest a worse thing come on you. You do NOT control the out come of what happens when we sin. Satan told Jesus.. ALL this is mine.. it was given to me.. handed over to me. Gee WHO had control of the earth.. Psa 8 for one.

    What did Jesus say when they came to take Him? You think GOD RULES is in all control of the earth? Jesus said Satan is the God of this world. Jesus said.. if this was MY kingdom my servants would fight for me. Now Jesus did die and ROSE! Praise GOD.. so just WHAT else was DONE..FINISHED? Just salvation?

    Again there is so much here that was not written. Demon says to Jesus.. have you come to torment us before out time?.. Out time? So THEY know theres a time limit on this. We dont.. we dont need to know.

    God KNOWS I did not take a bite of that tree.. so my way out was FREELY given to me. By one it was taken.. but one.. given back. So this TREE.. I wonder did it not HAVE to be there. Satan had already fallen. God can not lie.. did not hide it. A TEST that some say? I dont think so. God does not have to TEST ME to see if I will choose Him. I never had to be or ever will be TESTED on that. I heard a knock.. I open that door. I cant kick Him out.. that DOOR can never be closed.. its DONE. I am talking about ME..

    Theres some WAR up there...that we will not see. Things HAVE happen there hours days YEARS ago to US that are effecting the world TODAY! There is no TIME there. The BATTLE is not with flesh and blood... tree ... wow.. I wonder.. look at how well no life so to speak over there..the land.. SAND..

    Is it like that because the Garden WAS there and.. look what SIN Started THERE did? Just a thought
     
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