What is the effect of myrrh from mixed canonical-schismatic a consecration?

[rakovsky]

Constantinople expects Churches to serve with schismatics in Holy Week Chrism service

Although holding autocephalous status, the majority of Local Churches, in fact, do not make their own Chrism, but receive it from Constantinople, either by tradition or as dictated by their tomoses issued by Constantinople. Among these Churches is the schismatic “Orthodox Church of Ukraine.” ... World Ecclesiastical News reports that the consecration of Holy Chrism will take place in Istanbul “with the participation of representatives of the autocephalous Churches that receive Holy Chrism from the Ecumenical Patriarchate.”

These Churches are: Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Cyprus, Greece, Poland, Albania, Czech-Slovak, and the OCU. Of these only the primates and certain bishops of Alexandria, Cyprus, and Greece have recognized the OCU.

The CP makes new chrism every 10 years, and it is scheduled to make its next batch around Paskha this year.

How does the status of the CP’s new joint CP-OCU Chrism affect the CP and recipients of this chrism from the perspective of those of us (technically most EOs worldwide) who consider the OCU schismatic but who haven’t broken communion with the CP? So if an Antiochian in the US gets chrismated into the AOC with the CP’s OCU consecrated chrism, or if I visit a GOARCH parish what is the effect if I get anointed with their holy oil?

EOs have a range of opinions on the status of heterodox/Schismatic sacraments. On one end, some view them as valid. Alexandria has an official agreement with the OO Copts for intercommunion of EO-OO mixed married couples. On the opposite end, some EOs consider heterodox/Schismatic sacraments to be invalid and worse.

In the current crisis with the CP, only the MP has suspended communion with the CP. All the rest consider the CP still canonical despite the CP's concelebrations with the OCU, which most EO Churches consider schismatic. Meanwhile, most EO Churches would not be OK with their clergy concelebrating with the OCU, nor with most parishioners communing in OCU Churches.

What is the situation with chrism that the CP plans to consecrate with the OCU and distribute to most EO Churches worldwide, from GOARCH to the AOCNA?

 

[ArmyMatt]

what do you mean exactly by the Constantinople’s OCU chrism?

 

[rakovsky]

what do you mean exactly by the Constantinople’s OCU chrism?

I take the article as saying that the CP and OCU are going to jointly consecrate the chrism this year that the CP would typically distribute to most EO Churches, as the article says:

In his Nativity Encyclical issued last month, Patriarch Bartholomew announced: “With God’s will, during the upcoming Holy and Great Week, we shall hold the service of the Blessing of the Holy Chrism in our venerable Center.” World Ecclesiastical News reports that the consecration of Holy Chrism will take place in Istanbul “with the participation of representatives of the autocephalous Churches that receive Holy Chrism from the Ecumenical Patriarchate.” These Churches are: Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, Cyprus, Greece, Poland, Albania, Czech-Slovak, and the OCU.

A Russian article says:

In his Christmas message, Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople announced that in April 2022 the Phanar would host the rite of chrism-making - the fourth in a row during his entire tenure. By tradition, representatives of the majority of the Local Orthodox Churches take part in this sacred ceremony, and especially those who receive chrism directly from the head of the Phanar. This year, the rite of chrism-making is of particular importance, since a representative of the OCU can take part in it.

spzh.news/ru/zashhita-very/85920-miro-ili-pcu-chin-mirovarenija-kak-prinuzhdenije-k-priznaniju-raskolynikov

 

[ArmyMatt]

I take the article as saying that the CP and OCU are going to jointly consecrate the chrism this year that the CP would typically distribute to most EO Churches, as the article says:


A Russian article says:

then honestly, I dunno

 

[E.C.]

Simple: be part of a jurisdiction that makes its own.

OCA, FTW!

 

[rakovsky]

Myrrh is used:

• for Chrismating baptized infants and converts
• for the consecration of the Holy Throne and of the walls in new churches;
• for the consecration of icons and the reburial/re-preserving (перезахоронение) of holy relics;
• earlier - for the anointing of Orthodox tsars/kings and emperors

Source: https://spzh.news/ru/zashhita-very

It sounds like then this issue might not come up personally if I just visit a parish that uses this chrism and commune. Otherwise, am I supposed to think that all clergy who get chrismated into Orthodoxy with this chrism are invalid/schismatic, and I should thus avoid communing from anyone who got it? This would feel extreme.

Example:
Nicholas gets baptized Lutheran and then chrismated into ACROD with mixed canonical-schismatic consecrated chrism. Then Nicholas takes canonically-consecrated Eucharist. Does taking the Eucharist override the defective chrismation? I guess that the answer would be Yes, because we have accepted Eastern Catholics into Orthodoxy without rechrismating them.

 

[rakovsky]

Simple: be part of a jurisdiction that makes its own.

OCA, FTW!

St. Michael's Cathedral, AK

It has to be part of the source of the logo:

 

[ArmyMatt]

Simple: be part of a jurisdiction that makes its own.

OCA, FTW!

yep! and I helped make the most recent batch of it, which was amazing

 

[rakovsky]

yep! and I helped make the most recent batch of it, which was amazing

Photos please. So cool.
The recipe list in this OCA video reminds me of when I make Masala Chai:
Holy Chrism consecrated on Great and Holy Thursday

It looks like Fr. Demko is at 2-3 minutes into it.

I want to see you in the Video.



It looks like the clergy present are responsible for making the myrrh.

Is it only the Primate who consecrates the myrrh alone, or do all clergy present consecrate it?

Best Wishes.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Photos please. So cool.
The recipe list in this OCA video reminds me of when I make Masala Chai:
Holy Chrism consecrated on Great and Holy Thursday

It looks like Fr. Demko is at 2-3 minutes into it.

I want to see you in the Video.



It looks like the clergy present are responsible for making the myrrh.

Is it only the Primate who consecrates the myrrh alone, or do all clergy present consecrate it?

Best Wishes.

the Primate consecrates it, but all clergy who can aide in its preparation.

 

[rakovsky]

It's neat that you helped participate in making chrism. Does it smell really good? The ingredients remind me of Indian cooking.

Did you ever go on pilgrimages to ancient Holy sites like Greece, Turkey, the Middle East?

Someone pointed out that whereas the Russian tradition has numerous American saints like those from Alaska, there are no saints who belong to the Greek tradition from America. I don't know if this is really true though. It would seem like perhaps there should be at least some Greek saint who spent time in America like St. Tikhon did.

Technically, there are pre-schism churches in Greenland and Iceland that could count as "North American" old holy places.

 

[ArmyMatt]

It's neat that you helped participate in making chrism. Does it smell really good? The ingredients remind me of Indian cooking.

Did you ever go on pilgrimages to ancient Holy sites like Greece, Turkey, the Middle East?

Someone pointed out that whereas the Russian tradition has numerous American saints like those from Alaska, there are no saints who belong to the Greek tradition from America. I don't know if this is really true though. It would seem like perhaps there should be at least some Greek saint who spent time in America like St. Tikhon did.

Technically, there are pre-schism churches in Greenland and Iceland that could count as "North American" old holy places.

yes, it smells amazing. and the Greeks do have guys like Bp Gerasimos of Abydos, Fr John of Santa Cruz, and Elder Ephraim.

 

[E.C.]

St. Michael's Cathedral, AK

It has to be part of the source of the logo:

Most likely, I'd be lunch on it.

yep! and I helped make the most recent batch of it, which was amazing

NICE! Finally, some military representation in these things!

 

[ArmyMatt]

NICE! Finally, some military representation in these things!

there’s a good deal of representation actually, haha. a lot of chaplains and veterans were there.

 

[rakovsky]

there’s a good deal of representation actually, haha. a lot of chaplains and veterans were there.

Why is Memorial Day the big public gathering holiday at St Tikhon's?
Maybe because if it was a Church holiday, then people would be just commemorating it at their parishes?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why is Memorial Day the big public gathering holiday at St Tikhon's?
Maybe because if it was a Church holiday, then people would be just commemorating it at their parishes?

it’s because St Tikhon of Moscow proclaimed it as the day of pilgrimage. it became even bigger because the Seminary commencement is the same weekend.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I would also say that Memorial Day, aside from Thanksgiving, is the only holiday in the US that hasn’t been completely secularized.