What is the difference between works of the Law and works of the Spirit

[zoidar]

I know, I'm asuming something here. Let us just stick to what Paul means by works of the Law and works of the Spirit. As always, be kind to each other, and encourage each other in faith.

Christ love,
Peter

 

[pdudgeon]

Works of the Law, we are obliged to do because of our relationship to God, our Father.
Works of The Spirit originate from love, and from our care and concern for others.

If we focus on these two things, we see always before us both the outward form and the inmost hope of The Cross.

 

[BarnyFyfe]

There is no difference.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

And neither have the power to save. At least not as performed by sinful men. They do as performed by Christ in our behalf. Along with His death and resurrection.

 

[HTacianas]

I know, I'm asuming something here. Let us just stick to what Paul means by works of the Law and works of the Spirit. As always, be kind to each other, and encourage each other in faith.

Christ love,
Peter

The "works of the law" that Paul spoke of were the acts required under the law to be considered righteous. Things like circumcision, kosher diet, keeping sabbaths, abstaining from handling certain animals, etc. Those have never been required by Christianity.

Works of the spirit, if I understand your question, might be prophecy, healing, and a few others. They "follow those who believe" but are not things everyone is able to do.

 

[Deus Vult!]

I know, I'm asuming something here. Let us just stick to what Paul means by works of the Law and works of the Spirit. As always, be kind to each other, and encourage each other in faith.

Christ love,
Peter

Here is a passage and the evidence for the two meanings for "works", in biblical Greek this is "ergon":
(ἔργον, ἔργου, τό, anciently Φεργον (German Werk, (English work; cf. Vanicek, p. 922)); the Sept. for פֹּעַל, עֲבֹדָה and countless times for מְלָאכָה and מַעֲשֶׂה; work, i. e.
1. business, employment, that with which anyone is occupied:

Ephesians (2:8-10)
"8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-

9 not by works (ergon), so that no man can boast.

10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works (ergon), which God prepared in advance for us to do."

The "works" found in verse 9 are referring to the works of the Mosaic Law, the performance of all the dietary, celebratory, and sacrificial laws prescribed in the Torah (First 5 books of the OT. Gen-Dut).

The "works" found in verse 10 are referring to the commandments of Jesus Himself, such as the work of being merciful, charitable, loving, faith in Jesus - His Divinity, to receive Trinitarian Baptism, to receive His Body and Blood in the Eucharist, to be married and not to fornicate, etc,etc...
It is these "works" that St.James refers to that without them your faith is dead. St. James 2:14-26.

"The phrase "works of law" occurs 74 a total of times in the writings of Paul. It is a technical phrase, erga nomou, which is commonly taken to refer to the ceremonial precepts of the Law, for example, circumcision (as we have seen in the prior quote), but also the ceremonial washings, dietary precepts, etc. It does not, however, refer to the moral imperatives to do good in general, as summarized in the Ten Commandments. Erga nomou is essentially the Levitical law, not the moral law." - Quoted from St. James and St. Paul on "Works of the Law"

 

[Deus Vult!]

There is no difference.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

And neither have the power to save. At least not as performed by sinful men. They do as performed by Christ in our behalf. Along with His death and resurrection.

There is obviously a difference, otherwise there is no way to square what St.James wrote about "works" and what St.Paul wrote about "works" and the "works of the law":
"24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
-St. James(2:24-26)

Furthermore, you stated: "And neither have the power to save. At least not as performed by sinful men."

Here go just a couple of works that men do perform precisely because they do save:

Baptism saves.
John (3:5):"Jesus answered, “Verily, verily I say unto thee, unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

1st Peter (3:21):
"There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;"

1st Corinthians (6:11): "11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Eucharist saves:
John (6:53-58): "53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Matthew (26:28):"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

1st Corinthians (11:27-30): "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died."

On this last passage I would take verse 29 and look at it from another point of view. I could - based on what St.Paul wrote - conclude that if anyone eats and drinks while accurately discerning the Body of the Lord, that one would be eating and drinking salvation on themselves. If you do not like the word "salvation" as an antonym for "judgement" just pick another...
And if eating and drinking the Eucharist kills one or causes one to by sick among those who disbelieve, then the one believing would have potential healing and would not die. The Eucharist is salvific and the Lord Himself said so.
The Lord was born in Bethlehem. Look up the word "Bethlehem".

 

[BarnyFyfe]

There is obviously a difference, otherwise there is no way to square what St.James wrote about "works" and what St.Paul wrote about "works" and the "works of the law":

And here we go.
There is not obviously a difference, otherwise there is no way to square what St.James wrote about "works" and what St.Paul wrote about other stuff like:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

Good works are a product of conversion. Not the means of conversion.
Ordinances don't save. Jesus saves.
When James says justified, he doesn't mean converted.
unamsanctamcatholicamdotcom/apologetics/86-contra-protestantism notwithstanding.

Let us just stick to what Paul means by works of the Law and works of the Spirit.

 

[1213]

I know, I'm asuming something here. Let us just stick to what Paul means by works of the Law and works of the Spirit. As always, be kind to each other, and encourage each other in faith.

I understand it so that ”works of the law” means one does what the law requires, because he must do so. And “works of the spirit” means one does what is right, because he understands it is good and he freely wants to do what is good and right. Other is based on compulsion and force, and the other is voluntary and based on right understanding.

 

[Deus Vult!]

And here we go.
There is not obviously a difference, otherwise there is no way to square what St.James wrote about "works" and what St.Paul wrote about other stuff like:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

Good works are a product of conversion. Not the means of conversion.
Ordinances don't save. Jesus saves.
When James says justified, he doesn't mean converted.
unamsanctamcatholicamdotcom/apologetics/86-contra-protestantism notwithstanding.

And I'm not getting into a Luther at the Diet of Worms-type thing so:
Over-And-Out.

What an irony! The one who claims that there is no difference between the works that St.Paul references in Romans (3:28): " 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

- and the works that St.James references in James(2:24-26):"

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
- and yet apparently does not advocate for the Mosaic Law, yet still holds the Sabbath as the seventh day and not on the day of the Lord, the eighth day, Sunday...
You are given over to confusion trying to follow the traditions of men rather than the Sacred Tradition of our Lord and His Church.

But you should have remembered this-:
1st Peter (5:5-6):
5 Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”

6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time"

- And not given yourself into the "rebellion of Korah".
St.Jude verse 11.

Side Question: What is this warning against those going in the "rebellion of Korah"? Please do not google some erroneous protestant interpretation of it, I want your answer from your heart. It is okay if you want some time to read it again to form an opinion; but I want your answer what this rebellion could mean?
How was the rebellion of Korah applicable to some of the first century Christians? How is it applicable to many Christians even today?

 

[BarnyFyfe]

Erga nomou is essentially the Levitical law, not the moral law.

I guess the Gentiles spoken of in Romans 2:15 somehow got the Levitical law written in their hearts.

 

[Deus Vult!]

I understand it so that ”works of the law” means one does what the law requires, because he must do so. And “works of the spirit” means one does what is right, because he understands it is good and he freely wants to do what is good and right. Other is based on compulsion and force, and the other is voluntary and based on right understanding.

Study the New Testament in its full context.
There are "works" that profit nothing. These "works" are the attempt of fulfilling all the ordinances of the Mosaic Law, i.e, ceremonial washings, celebratory feast days, circumcision, sacrificial offerings,etc.

There are "works" that profit everything. These "works" are the weightier matters of the law: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith," i.e, showing mercy, keeping faith in Christ's Diety, keeping faith in the resurrection of Jesus, keeping the faith until you die, Baptism, reception of Eucharist, prayer, speaking the truth, honoring your parents, etc.
We are instructed to by St.Paul: "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"-Phil (2:12)

 

[BarnyFyfe]

yet still holds the Sabbath as the seventh day and not on the day of the Lord, the eighth day, Sunday...

I can't find any "eighth day" on the calendar.

You are given over to confusion trying to follow the traditions of men rather than the Sacred Tradition of our Lord and His Church.

The tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God = "the traditions of men." Got it. You kinda outed yourself with your contra-protestantism link. I hope you're not treading near to forum rule violation.

 

[Deus Vult!]

I guess the Gentiles spoken of in Romans 2:15 somehow got the Levitical law written in their hearts.

Exactly ! you are proving my point, that the word: "works" applies to two different things in the Scripture.
A.) The following of the Mosaic Law.
B.)Following of commands of Christ.

You proved it with your quote from Romans 2:15, and yes the Levitical Law was fulfilled in Christ, following the commands of Christ is a perfect answer to the precepts of the Mosaic Law.

 

[BarnyFyfe]

Exactly ! you are proving my point, that the word: "works" applies to two different things in the Scripture.
A.) The following of the Mosaic Law.
B.)Following of commands of Christ.

You proved it with your quote from Romans 2:15, and yes the Levitical Law was fulfilled in Christ, following the commands of Christ is a perfect answer to the precepts of the Mosaic Law.

You're welcome.

 

[Deus Vult!]

I can't find any "eighth day" on the calendar.

The tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God = "the traditions of men." Got it. You kinda outed yourself with your contra-protestantism link. I hope you're not treading near to forum rule violation.

"I can't find any "eighth day" on the calendar."-Are you implying that you can find the "seventh day" on the calendar? Laughable defense.

"The tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God = "the traditions of men."- They amount to the traditions of men many Levitical priests added approx 613+ other commands that the adherents to the Torah had to follow in addition to the Decalogue. You know this already.
This was part of our Lord's mission on earth. To answer the commands of the Torah and to show Himself "Lord even of the Sabbath"…7 "If only you had known the meaning of ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
We Christian gather on the Lord's Day. This "Lords Day" to a Jew in the first century of Christianity would have been to them the eighth day, the day after the Sabbath, which was the seventh day.
The reason that this day since the very birth of Christianity became our Holy Day of rest is because our Lord rose from the dead on this day. I could give you many references in the book of Acts where the Apostles and those converting to Christ began gathering and keeping holy the Lords Day=Sunday, and gave up the Sabbath.
The entire history of Christianity attests to this fact.
Go figure some obscure "christian" sect that began within 150 years ago claims they got it all figured out now and that all the Christian faithful that preceded them have been wrong and they are right.
In this you are guilty of following the tradition of men, in that you follow some sect that began teaching something different than what the ancient Church has always believed and taught.
Here goes a quick google search:
Q. Who founded Seventh Day Adventist Church and when?
A. Founded: May 21, 1863, Battle Creek, MI
Founders: Ellen G. White, James Springer White, Joseph Bates, J. N. Andrews

Q. Who founded Catholic Church?
A. Founder: Jesus Christ
Founded: c. AD 30 / 33https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus#cite_note-8
(aged 33–36)
Jerusalem, Judea, Roman Empire

 

[d taylor]

Works of the law is what a unbelieving Jew does to try and gain Eternal Life.

Works of the spirit is the work of the Holy Spirit does in a believer. Just like everything (miracles) Jesus did was not of His own power but by the Holy Spirit.

 

[BarnyFyfe]

"I can't find any "eighth day" on the calendar."-Are you implying that you can find the "seventh day" on the calendar? Laughable defense.

"The tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God = "the traditions of men."- They amount to the traditions of men many Levitical priests added approx 613+ other commands that the adherents to the Torah had to follow in addition to the Decalogue. You know this already.
This was part of our Lord's mission on earth. To answer the commands of the Torah and to show Himself "Lord even of the Sabbath"…7 "If only you had known the meaning of ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
We Christian gather on the Lord's Day. This "Lords Day" to a Jew in the first century of Christianity would have been to them the eighth day, the day after the Sabbath, which was the seventh day.
The reason that this day since the very birth of Christianity became our Holy Day of rest is because our Lord rose from the dead on this day. I could give you many references in the book of Acts where the Apostles and those converting to Christ began gathering and keeping holy the Lords Day=Sunday, and gave up the Sabbath.
The entire history of Christianity attests to this fact.
Go figure some obscure "christian" sect that began within 150 years ago claims they got it all figured out now and that all the Christian faithful that preceded them have been wrong and they are right.
In this you are guilty of following the tradition of men, in that you follow some sect that began teaching something different than what the ancient Church has always believed and taught.
Here goes a quick google search:
Q. Who founded Seventh Day Adventist Church and when?
A. Founded: May 21, 1863, Battle Creek, MI
Founders: Ellen G. White, James Springer White, Joseph Bates, J. N. Andrews

Q. Who founded Catholic Church?
A. Founder: Jesus Christ
Founded: c. AD 30 / 33
(aged 33–36)
Jerusalem, Judea, Roman Empire

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is one of the approved Christian Faith Groups on the list maintained by the forum administrators. You are becoming increasingly polarizing and you are treading on thin ice with the forum rules by advancing your anti-Protestant agenda as well. Fair warning given.

 

[Deus Vult!]

The Seventh-day Adventist Church is one of the approved Christian Faith Groups on the list maintained by the forum administrators. You are becoming increasingly polarizing and you are treading on thin ice with the forum rules by advancing your anti-Protestant agenda as well. Fair warning given.

Do you even recognize how polarizing "protestantism" itself is?
Do you even recognize that protestantism is by definition anti-Catholic?
Do you see how being "anti-protestant"= Catholicism?
I have no "anti-protestant" agenda, I have a Catholic agenda, it appears that I am against you now because the reality is that the founders of protestantism separated from and pitted themselves against the Church.
The word "Protestant" comes from: "one who is protesting".
The word "Catholic" comes from two Greek words: "Kata" translating as "according to", and "Holos" translating as "whole".
"Catholic" coming from the Greek conjunction "Katholikos" literally translates as "according to the whole".


Protestant
Prot·es·tant
/ˈprädəstənt

1. a member or follower of any of the Western Christian churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church and follow the principles of the Reformation, including the Baptist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran churches.

Origin

Catholic
noun
Cath·o·lic | \ ˈkath-lik , ˈka-thə- \
Definition of Catholic (Entry 2 of 2)

1: a person who belongs to the universal Christian church
2: of, relating to, or forming the ancient undivided Christian church or a church claiming historical continuity from it
History and Etymology for catholic
Adjective

Middle English catholik, from Middle French & Late Latin; Middle French catholique, from Late Latin catholicus, from Greek katholikos universal, general, from katholou in general, from kata by + holos whole — more at CATA-, SAFE

 

[BarnyFyfe]

The unadulterated pre-modern meaning of the word "protest" is "in favor of testing." Catholics were persecuted by Protestants in the U.S. in the early 20th century. I know the history but I wasn't there. I have never been anti-Catholic myself but I am in favor of testing doctrine. You can pontificate all you want. You're not fooling anyone.

 

[Deus Vult!]

The unadulterated pre-modern meaning of the word "protest" is "in favor of testing." Catholics were persecuted by Protestants in the U.S. in the early 20th century. I know the history but I wasn't there. I have never been anti-Catholic myself but I am in favor of testing doctrine. You can pontificate all you want. You're not fooling anyone.

If sharing the truth is "pontificating" then so be it. You should not accuse someone - who out of pure love for the Christian's - of trying to "fool" people... but I forgive you totally. I used to say similar things to the Catholics before I converted out of the "Lutheran" Church. In fact I said worse. So you are very blessed in this... but no I fear that should I be a teacher I face a stricter judgement, and should I teach lies or error I would fall headlong into hell. I risk my own eternity for being a teacher to my fellow Christian's.
I fear my own words, I fear that by every word I speak or write I will be judged.
What a shame, that I hold myself this way and then when I share my pearls and Holy things I am accused of attempting to fool you or anyone reading through this thread.
I dont judge you at all however in this. I forgive you with a happy heart. I speak all whatbj wrote soft spoken and in humility. I never wish to be concluded as pontificating. But emotion and zeal is lost through text on a screen...
Peace of Christ Jesus be with you forever.