What is the difference between Mormons and Jehovah's witness?

[ldsfaqs]

I understand the differences between the Witness view of Jesus (Arian heresy) and orthodox Christianity (Trinitarian) view.

I also agree that the NWT is a flawed translation in a few notable places. Nevertheless, the JW's do consider the Bible to be the final authority on matters of faith and doctrine where they fall short is in their reliance on Watchtower publications to understand or explain the Bible.

Witnesses who instead choose to rely on the Bible itself and apply literal hermeneutics invariably leave the Witnesses and very often become ardent born again Christians. Very often they do this through the use of the NWT itself. I know, I did.

The fact is I was born, raised, baptized, ordained, and married LDS and later became a JW after studying the Bible with them in an attempt to "witness" to them the truth of the "restored church" aka The Mormons.

Instead I became convinced that the Bible was the inerrant word of God and the other LDS "Scripture" were demonically inspired man made pale imitations of the real thing.

So, I became a Witness. However, being somewhat hardheaded and very mistrustful of man made doctrines and teachings after a lifetime of being LDS I began to read the Bible (NWT) without the aid of Watchtower publications and over a period of time without even being aware of it I became an orthodox believer of the reformed variety and left the Witnesses.

This is what I meant when I said that JW's can be led to Christ through the Holy Spirit more easily than LDS', it is because the Bible IS the cornerstone of their faith albeit a flawed version and the Watchtower publications are an adjunct to aid understanding not authoritative in and of themselves.

You changed religions..... You didn't move to the ultimate truth.

On the other hand LDS' tend to rely far more heavily on other "Scripture" considering it to be authoritative making them far less likely to become true Christians as a result.

This is something that always fascinates me about those who leave religions and following the doctrines of men to be enemy's of their past Faith. They loose all ability to accurately represent their old Faith. Because what you just stated is COMPLETELY FALSE.

While we do tend to focus on Latter-day Revelations a bit more for obvious reasons, we consider ALL scripture as authoritative, and equally work between them. For example, if your views of us were accurate, if there was something in the Bible that contradicted something of Mormonism, we would believe Mormonism over it. However, there is no such thing in the Church. ALL Biblical scripture goes hand in hand with other LDS scripture and LDS teachings. YOU not understanding how or why, thus not understanding and now having "different" interpretations of scripture yourself, is not the same as not being in conformative to the Bible.

Although some do; Praise God!

Recently several of my family members (born under the covenant) have left the Mormon Church after reading the Bible and praying for guidance.

So? People in your religions do the same when they join the Church.
They are people like me, and even Joseph Smith, who see these religions, see problems and things missing, and then come upon Mormonism, and discover all the questions are answered, all the holes are filled, and God's Kingdom is again on the earth.

So, even Mormons can be led out of the darkness by the Holy Spirit when they put their faith in Christ alone, read the Bible, and allow the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth. They leave however with a whole lot more unscriptural baggage to jettison than do the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Problem with your judgment here is that the same occurs with us when getting out of YOUR religions and dogma..... We are led out of ACTUAL darkness to the fullness of the Light.

 

[Conor B]

LDS indeed "don't" consider the Bible to be the authoritative word of God, we consider the Word of God to be the Word of God, in which the Bible also contains. We are not Bible "idol" worshipers.

We do not worship the Bible, its just a book we worship the God the Bible reveals to man through the word of God.

1. "Without basis"....? Be careful of your words. We don't believe anything without basis.

Really? I don't consider 1 Nephi 13:26-29 to be much of a basis considering the BOM has very little internal and no external evidence of its veracity whereas the Bible has a plethora of both.

Actually, a hard look at the evidence conclusively demonstrates that the New Testament and Old Testament manuscripts are amazingly accurate and eminently very trustworthy.

I've little doubt you'll start talking about the many "variants" among the texts as evidence the Bible has been altered but of these variants virtually all of them simply involve a missing letter in a word; some involve reversing the order of two words (such as "Christ Jesus" instead of "Jesus Christ"); some involve the absence of one or more insignificant words (usually the result of a damaged text). When all the facts are put on the table, only about 50 variants out of the the original 150,000 variants have any real significance at all, and even then, no doctrine of the Christian faith or any moral commandment is effected in any way shape or form by these few remaining variants.

In more than ninety-nine percent of the cases the original text can be reconstructed with certainty. Even in the few cases where some perplexity remains, this does not impinge on the meaning of Scripture to the point of clouding a single tenet of the Christian faith.

We have today without a doubt the very Word of God, as it was first conveyed to us by divine inspiration.

2. LDS do not consider ANY scripture to be perfect. Even the Book of Mormon Joseph said it was the "most correct" book, because it was pure revelation and hadn't been in mans hands much to mess much up. But even it he didn't say was "perfect".

Joseph Smith claimed it was the "most correct" book but there is no evidence whatsoever beyond his say so that it is either correct or revealed beyond the testimony of the "Three Witnesses" or the "Eight Witnesses" whose testimony is also highly suspect for numerous reasons.

3. LDS recognizing that men with their own designs over 2,000 years both compiled what was an wasn't scripture (several times mind you, adding and removing things), and the many translations, and we know things are missing, etc. etc. Doesn't mean LDS don't consider the Bible to also contain the word of God. Heck, just translation alone, which translation is the "true" translation? Especially the modern ones? I've seen specific examples of how the NIV the most popular Evangelical version corrects some things, but entirely perverts others, and even inserts Evangelical interpretation into the Word. Which Bible? The Orthodox Bible, the Catholic Bible, the Protestant Bible??? You do know each one has different books of scriptures etc. in them??? So get off your high horse that LDS actually know the Bible for as it is.... It is the Word of God and the Correct Interpretation of it that is Key. It as a book is not "divine".

Canonicity is an entirely different issue, all traditions accept the core 66 books as inspired some canons choose to include Deutero-canonical and/or apocryphal books as worthy of study but with very few exceptions not as authoritative in matters of faith or doctrine.

4. Revelation from God is not "man-made". Just because YOU have been told to believe in the man-made doctrine that there will never be revelation, scripture, etc. again, doesn't make it true. The Bible doesn't say that anywhere, yet you choose to believe that man-made doctrine.

I've been told a whole LOT of man-made doctrine (mostly LDS and JW) which I've since jettisoned because I know for a certainty isn't true. However, I've never believed there will never again be revelation from God. God can and will reveal whatever He chooses whenever He chooses, I don't believe I've ever met a Christian whose stated otherwise

The difference is Christians know that no new revelation or prophecy from God will contradict currently revealed Scripture; if it does its not from God.

Let me tell you a little secret.... Mormons also use the Bible as a stone in our Faith. In fact, of the 4 years of our Sunday School scripture rotation we spent 2 years on the Bible.

Key words are "a stone in our faith". Problem is its a small stone. Starting in primary and Sunday School almost all cited Scriptures come from the BOM, PGP, D&C, etc. and only a very few cherry picked verses from the Bible.

Most LDS kids and adults for that matter struggle to find the different books in the Bible but have no problem flipping right to Helaman or Ether.

Have you even ever stepped into an LDS Church to even know what you are talking about? Clearly you haven't.

Clearly you haven't a clue. I attended SS, Sacrament Meeting, Priesthood Meeting, Primary, Mutual, ad nauseum for almost thirty years and I will be attending them again in a couple of weeks as I will be visiting one of my brothers in Southern Utah.

I know LDS doctrine very well indeed which is why I'm absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is untrue.

We don't have any "lessons" saying what is and isn't "corrupt" with the Bible.

I know.

However article eight of the Articles of Faith states:

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

That coupled with some statements of past Presidents (most notably Brigham Young) leads to a heavy reliance on other than Biblical Scripture in teaching and forming doctrine.

The Bible is equal, hand in hand with our other scripture.

No its not. If it were more LDS would know their way around the Bible better than they do and they would be able to quote more than a handful of verses. Most LDS' have a passing familiarity with the Bible at best.

We study the Bible just as anyone studies the Bible.

No you don't. Most Christians do not cherry pick verses and apply them out of context in order to proof text a distinctive doctrine the way the church does. Most Christians also don't read the Bible with a critical eye wondering which verse they are reading might be translated incorrectly.

There is nothing in Mormonism that conflicts with the Bible, if it did, we wouldn't be mormon.

That's so untrue I don't even know where to begin...

Further, me as a convert to mormonism, I know for a fact it doesn't conflict. But I also know that all your religions DO in fact conflict with it. I spent years in your religions, being beholden to NONE of their biases and interpretations. I just read the book for myself. And because of being in so many of your religions, it was easy to see all the man-made interpretations, the omissions, the perversions, etc. Only when I later came upon Mormonism did a religion in FULL and Accurately fit what the Book in Full said.

True Christians all belong to the Church of Jesus Christ and there is only one Christian religion. Granted, there are different denominational distinctives and levels of understanding and/or error separating congregations but there is only one Church; The Church of Jesus Christ. You are either a part of it or you are not.

Sadly, I'm convinced Latter Day Saints are not and my life's purpose is to try and change that one member at a time. I praise God that this effort is finally beginning to bear fruit.

All scripture and truth is the cornerstone of our Faith, and Jesus Christ is the CHIEF Cornerstone....

I agree that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of our faith. I wish it were true for LDS' as well.

 

[Skip Sampson]

I also agree that the NWT is a flawed translation in a few notable places. Nevertheless, the JW's do consider the Bible to be the final authority on matters of faith and doctrine where they fall short is in their reliance on Watchtower publications to understand or explain the Bible.

I'm not sure you can split that hair. The Watchtower leadership is the final authority, though they do pay lipservice to the Bible. It is the reason they use their own materials during services and study groups. They dare not rely upon bible study alone.

This is what I meant when I said that JW's can be led to Christ through the Holy Spirit more easily than LDS', it is because the Bible IS the cornerstone of their faith albeit a flawed version and the Watchtower publications are an adjunct to aid understanding not authoritative in and of themselves.

Ok, that's a fair point. Cordially, Skip.

 

[ldsfaqs]

We do not worship the Bible, its just a book we worship the God the Bible reveals to man through the word of God.

<Staff Edit>

Really? I don't consider 1 Nephi 13:26-29 to be much of a basis considering the BOM has very little internal and no external evidence of its veracity whereas the Bible has a plethora of both.

Says you.... I however have studied and learned plenty otherwise.

Actually, a hard look at the evidence conclusively demonstrates that the New Testament and Old Testament manuscripts are amazingly accurate and eminently very trustworthy.

If you actually think there aren't "differences" is translations, you are clearly uninformed. An entire doctrine is able to be entirely changed depending on WHO is translating it. I've personally seen several NIV verses which have been translated in an Evangelical view, contrary to what the actual translation should say, which in some cases is saying something completely different.

<Staff Edit>

I've little doubt you'll start talking about the many "variants" among the texts as evidence the Bible has been altered but of these variants virtually all of them simply involve a missing letter in a word; some involve reversing the order of two words (such as "Christ Jesus" instead of "Jesus Christ"); some involve the absence of one or more insignificant words (usually the result of a damaged text). When all the facts are put on the table, only about 50 variants out of the the original 150,000 variants have any real significance at all, and even then, no doctrine of the Christian faith or any moral commandment is effected in any way shape or form by these few remaining variants.

Again, clearly you don't know the issues. Your statement here is a complete cop-out and rationalization which ignores TONS of problems.

In more than ninety-nine percent of the cases the original text can be reconstructed with certainty. Even in the few cases where some perplexity remains, this does not impinge on the meaning of Scripture to the point of clouding a single tenet of the Christian faith.

Really? What's the proper method of Baptism?
Why is there not one baptism?

We have today without a doubt the very Word of God, as it was first conveyed to us by divine inspiration.

Joseph Smith claimed it was the "most correct" book but there is no evidence whatsoever beyond his say so that it is either correct or revealed beyond the testimony of the "Three Witnesses" or the "Eight Witnesses" whose testimony is also highly suspect for numerous reasons.

Actually there is plenty of evidence. <Staff Edit>
And the Witnesses is some of the best evidence out there. <Staff Edit> Read the book "Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses". <Staff Edit>

Canonicity is an entirely different issue, all traditions accept the core 66 books as inspired some canons choose to include Deutero-canonical and/or apocryphal books as worthy of study but with very few exceptions not as authoritative in matters of faith or doctrine.

Fact is there are differences, other than just "Apocryphal" as well. For example, the Orthodox Church has books not contained in either. Further, there was no "one" Bible when it was started to being compiled. There are books there were in it, books removed, put back in, and taken out. There are book not in the Cannon in which still exist that Christ and others even quote from. There are so many issues and problems, I won't get into them here,<Staff Edit> Even when Christ was on the earth and for some time after. He's ALWAYS had his authorized servants to expound His Truths.

<Staff Edit>

I've been told a whole LOT of man-made doctrine (mostly LDS and JW) which I've since jettisoned because I know for a certainty isn't true. However, I've never believed there will never again be revelation from God. God can and will reveal whatever He chooses whenever He chooses, I don't believe I've ever met a Christian whose stated otherwise

Again, your opinion..... My experience is well more informed and balanced. So, I trust my judgment over yours. Oh, plenty of Christians believe the Cannon is closed, that the heavens are closed, no new prophets, apostles, etc.

The difference is Christians know that no new revelation or prophecy from God will contradict currently revealed Scripture; if it does its not from God.

No, it's not a difference because nothing of mormonism does contract currently revealed scripture. As a convert I actually know. Yes, you believe differently. But you've just traded one belief for another. Me, I've actually been in an objective and balanced position with ALL major/minor beliefs out there to compare. I didn't accept any...... I read the book for myself.<Staff Edit> And it was easy to see that when Mormonism came along, it was the ONLY ONE to fully and accurately fit.

Key words are "a stone in our faith". Problem is its a small stone. Starting in primary and Sunday School almost all cited Scriptures come from the BOM, PGP, D&C, etc. and only a very few cherry picked verses from the Bible.

2 years out of 4 of Bible study is not "cherry picking" verses of the Bible.
<Staff Edit>

Most LDS kids and adults for that matter struggle to find the different books in the Bible but have no problem flipping right to Helaman or Ether.

That is a little bit true..... First it's smaller, thus obviously easier to find, and second, yes, there is a little more of an emphasis on the "Restored" aspect of the Gospel. After all, everyone has a Bible..... But they don't have the fullness. Thus yes, there is a little more emphasis on what is new compared to the old, but that's only because God is again speaking in Our Day, and it's something the world doesn't have. The world has a Bible already. It doesn't have the Restored Gospel. Did Christ and the Apostles go around teaching the Old Testament....? Nope..... They focused much more on the NEW..... the teachings of Christ.

Thus, you shouldn't condemn Mormons for being a little more focused on the new.

Clearly you haven't a clue. I attended SS, Sacrament Meeting, Priesthood Meeting, Primary, Mutual, ad nauseum for almost thirty years and I will be attending them again in a couple of weeks as I will be visiting one of my brothers in Southern Utah.

I know LDS doctrine very well indeed which is why I'm absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is untrue.

As someone who is not only a convert but also left the Church once, I actually know without a doubt that you are wrong. Again, my witness is More Sure than yours.

However article eight of the Articles of Faith states:

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

That coupled with some statements of past Presidents (most notably Brigham Young) leads to a heavy reliance on other than Biblical Scripture in teaching and forming doctrine.

Notice the words..... "as far as translated correctly"...???
Everything LDS teach comes from the scriptures, and nothing contradicts other scripture. Yes, if you quote mine scripture and otherwise like you guys do with the "God is spirit" scripture, or "Grace Alone" scriptures, then yes, we seem to teach differently. But, the entire Bible actually teaches more <Staff Edit>.

No its not. If it were more LDS would know their way around the Bible better than they do and they would be able to quote more than a handful of verses. Most LDS' have a passing familiarity with the Bible at best.

LDS not being familiar with YOUR ideology's and interpretations of Biblical scripture is not the same thing with LDS not being familiar with them.

Further, ALL religions have their "experts", and those who have other talents and interests. We have mormons such as I who know the Bible very well.

No you don't. Most Christians do not cherry pick verses and apply them out of context in order to proof text a distinctive doctrine the way the church does. Most Christians also don't read the Bible with a critical eye wondering which verse they are reading might be translated incorrectly.

Makes me laugh..... LDS don't cherry pick anything<Staff Edit>. We follow and believe every word of the Bible, though more so the New Testament. <Staff Edit> I don't see any Apostles, which clearly were needed and replaced. I don't most of you following the process of both Baptism and Ordaining of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, both by those in authority as the New Testament states.<Staff Edit>

Second, that is a complete lie that LDS read the Bible and wonder what's translated incorrectly etc. LDS read it for as it is. Yes, we have some little help-mates with the JST, but other than that, we just read it. Well, the layman anyway.... The scholar on his own might get more into the scholarship, history, etc., which by the way even most non-LDS Christian scholar's acknowledge many LDS claims as to there being problems with the Bible. Anyway, as a Church, we just read the Bible.... You claim to have been Mormon, yet you clearly weren't if you believe that we look at the Bible wondering what is wrong with it. I've NEVER known anyone in the Church to do that..... And I've attended some 40 different Wards over the years in different areas, states etc., about 15 long term, and I've NEVER seen any mormon read the Bible the way you claim.

Again,<Staff Edit>as I've stated, those who leave the Church and become enemy's of it, lose all understanding of what they once knew. And guess who causes that? The Devil.... He is the great perverter of truth.

That's so untrue I don't even know where to begin...

Nope, it is true.... Your interpretations and theology from the Bible is not the same as the Bible itself, nor are your interpretations and perversions of Mormonism actually Mormonism as compared to the Bible. Mormonism is in complete conformity to the Bible. Again, I should know from my experiences both before being mormon, and after, as I've already shared.<Staff Edit>

True Christians all belong to the Church of Jesus Christ and there is only one Christian religion. Granted, there are different denominational distinctives and levels of understanding and/or error separating congregations but there is only one Church; The Church of Jesus Christ. You are either a part of it or you are not.

Nope.... That's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches an authoritative and organized literal Church. This is ONE of the reasons why I recognized Mormonism as being the actual Biblical Church, and none of the others, because it was the only one that perfectly mimicked what the Bible said the Church should look like. Yes, anyone who believes is of Christ (per Mark 9 & Luke 9), and also his, but that is not the same as being in His Church. Catholics and the Orthodox lost much over the years, but THEY ARE an example of the standard that Christ established.

Sadly, I'm convinced Latter Day Saints are not and my life's purpose is to try and change that one member at a time. I praise God that this effort is finally beginning to bear fruit.

Sad.... But, I won't condemn anyone wanting to come to Christ.
<Staff Edit> You my not take the name, but you do EVERYTHING that a Prophet does. <Staff Edit>Even if we are false in the end, at least we ATTEMPT to follow the pattern set. <Staff Edit>

I agree that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of our faith. I wish it were true for LDS' as well.

<Staff Edit>
The entire restoration is about Christ, His Gospel, in contrast to men.
Everything we are and do is an extension of him. It's HIS Work and Glory, not ours.

 

[Rescued One]

Let me tell you a little secret.... Mormons also use the Bible as a stone in our Faith. In fact, of the 4 years of our Sunday School scripture rotation we spent 2 years on the Bible.

Spending time on the Bible is not the same as actually seeing what it teaches.

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

The LDS declare orthodox interpretations of very clear verses to be incorrect:

"Isaiah 44:6 reads:

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

"Passages such as Isa 44:6,8 and 45:5,21 that read "no God beside me" or a variation of that phrase are traditionally interpreted by mainstream anti-Mormons as meaning that other than Yahweh no form of deity exists at all, including exalted men. This type of interpretation at first seems obvious, but after considering similar passages in other parts of scripture it is clear that this interpretation is incorrect. "
(Bold mine)
Mormonism and the nature of God/"No God beside me" - FAIRMormon

An index to the Old Testament LDS-style:

Old Testament Student Manual Genesis - 2 Samuel

Who is God according to LDS?

&#8220;The name Elohim . . . is expressive of supreme or absolute exaltation and power. Elohim, as understood and used in the restored Church of Jesus Christ, is the name-title of God the Eternal Father, whose firstborn Son in the spirit is Jehovah &#8212;the Only Begotten in the flesh, Jesus Christ.&#8221; ( Jesus the Christ, p. 38.)

It is vital to remember the place of God the Father: He is the Father of our spirits (see Hebrews 12:9 ) and is our God. The existence of other Gods cannot alter that fact. He is the author and sponsor of the eternal plan of salvation. It is equally essential to note, however, that the agent by whom He administers His affairs on this earth is His Firstborn Son, known as Jehovah in the Old Testament. He gave Jesus the full &#8220;Fatherly&#8221; authority to organize and govern the earth, then through the Atonement Jesus became the Father of the faithful. The Savior thus became the chief advocate of the Father&#8217;s plan.

Old Testament Student Manual Genesis - 2 Samuel - A - Enrichment Section - Who Is the God of the Old Testament?


More LDS brainwashing against both Jewish and orthodox Christian beliefs concerning God:

(A-3) Jesus Christ: The God of This World
There was confusion in the minds of the later Jews, Jesus&#8217; own people, regarding the identity of their God because they no longer understood their own scriptures. That is likewise the problem today with most of the Christian world. The mystery of understanding the identity of the God of the Old Testament arose in both cases because of wickedness and the loss of many plain and precious truths from the scriptures. By contrast, Jesus said that life eternal consisted of gaining a full knowledge of the Father and the Son (see John 17:3 ). In the final analysis the individual comes to know the true God through experiences that train him to be like Him, and thus he understands, or knows, Him (see 1 John 2:3 ; 3:1&#8211;2 ; Ether 2&#8211;3 ).

By the time Christ came, the Jews had lost the knowledge of the three distinct members of the Godhead. They had lost the truth that Jehovah, who had given them the law of Moses, would come into the world as the Redeemer of all mankind, even though the prophets had clearly taught this principle (see 1 Corinthians 10:4 ; 3 Nephi 15:10 ; Isaiah 41:14 ; 44:6 ).
http://www.institute.lds.org/manuals/old-testament-institute-student-manual-1/ot-in1-02-gen-a-A.asp


LDS, particularly here at CF, complain bitterly about non-LDS views of their beliefs, but their own lesson manuals are replete with criticisms of non-LDS beliefs!

 

[ldsfaqs]

LDS have less of a problem with others being critical of our beliefs, than we are with others misrepresenting those beliefs.

We don't expect you to believe the same, we only expect honesty.

Further, whatever "in general" that exists in mormonism that is critical of other beliefs (as we are explaining our beliefs) is nothing like that exists in what our enemy's do.

The very nature of "belief" is the fact and reality that you are going to be "contrary" to the beliefs of others.

Frankly, it really fascinates me that you people can't understand the "difference" between what LDS do, and what you do. Take your last quote above..... There is nothing in that that is similar to what you all do, it's simply a statement of belief. We believe there was a loss of truth for various reasons, and we give the solutions. That's NOTHING like the criticism you all do to us. We don't claim you believe something, and then when you disagree we call you a liar, saying we "hide" our beliefs, etc. We don't unfairly degrade in the way our enemy's do. We don't call Luther a false prophet...... even though technically he was. <Staff Edit>

 

[he-man]

Spending time on the Bible is not the same as actually seeing what it teaches.Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
The LDS declare orthodox interpretations of very clear verses to be incorrect: "Isaiah 44:6 reads: "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
"Passages such as Isa 44:6,8 and 45:5,21 that read "no God beside me" or a variation of that phrase are traditionally interpreted by mainstream anti-Mormons as meaning that other than Yahweh no form of deity exists at all, including exalted men. This type of interpretation at first seems obvious, but after considering similar passages in other parts of scripture it is clear that this interpretation is incorrect. "
(Bold mine)

Matthew 26:27-29
(27) Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. (28) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (29) But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

OK Let us look at other scripture:
&#1488;&#1514;&#1501; &#1506;&#1491;&#1497; &#1504;&#1488;&#1501;-&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; &#1493;&#1506;&#1489;&#1491;&#1497; &#1488;&#1513;&#1512; &#1489;&#1495;&#1512;&#1514;&#1497; &#1500;&#1502;&#1506;&#1503; &#1514;&#1491;&#1506;&#1493; &#1493;&#1514;&#1488;&#1502;&#1497;&#1504;&#1493; &#1500;&#1497; &#1493;&#1514;&#1489;&#1497;&#1504;&#1493; &#1499;&#1497;-&#1488;&#1504;&#1497; &#1492;&#1493;&#1488; &#1500;&#1508;&#1504;&#1497; &#1500;&#1488;-&#1504;&#1493;&#1510;&#1512; &#1488;&#1500; &#1493;&#1488;&#1495;&#1512;&#1497; &#1500;&#1488; &#1497;&#1492;&#1497;&#1492;
Which Hebrew words do you not agree with and tell me what the word or words should mean in the following:
Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.
1* Hebrew &#1497;&#1492;&#1497;&#1492; to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

&#1488;&#1504;&#1499;&#1497; &#1488;&#1504;&#1499;&#1497; &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; &#1493;&#1488;&#1497;&#1503; &#1502;&#1489;&#1500;&#1506;&#1491;&#1497; &#1502;&#1493;&#1513;&#1497;&#1506;
11 I am GOD; and without1 me there is no saviour.
1* Hebrew &#1502;&#1489;&#1500;&#1506;&#1491;&#1497; without

&#1488;&#1500;-&#1514;&#1508;&#1495;&#1491;&#1493; &#1493;&#1488;&#1500;-&#1514;&#1512;&#1492;&#1493; &#1492;&#1500;&#1488; &#1502;&#1488;&#1494; &#1492;&#1513;&#1502;&#1506;&#1514;&#1497;&#1498; &#1493;&#1492;&#1490;&#1491;&#1514;&#1497; &#1493;&#1488;&#1514;&#1501; &#1506;&#1491;&#1497; &#1492;&#1497;&#1513; &#1488;&#1500;&#1493;&#1492; &#1502;&#1489;&#1500;&#1506;&#1491;&#1497; &#1493;&#1488;&#1497;&#1503; &#1510;&#1493;&#1512; &#1489;&#1500;-&#1497;&#1491;&#1506;&#1514;&#1497;
Is 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

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Isa 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God.

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Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
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Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

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prep. except, but for, besides


Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides me.

 

[Skip Sampson]

All of this however is contrary to what the Bible and Christ taught as the pattern. His Pattern was that the truth was to be known through the Prophets, Apostles, and other authorized administers of the Faith, so we would not be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, and that there would be a unity.

That's circular reasoning: "since the LDS church is led by a Prophet, it must be what God wanted since time immemorial." It's also wrong.

If what you say is true, Jesus would have come back as a member of the priesthood, not as someone outside the fold, so to speak. As well, one only need read Hebrews to understand the concept of the priesthood of the believer, and to understand how the lds view of the melchizedek priesthood is totally wrong. Finally, bear in mind that the veil in the temple was split upon Jesus' death, meaning that the Holy of Holies was open to everyone, not just those admitted by a corrupt gerontocracy.

Even saying, that Old Wine could not be placed into a New Jar?

It's actually new wineskins, which you'd have known had you read the Bible.

You don't hold the truth, but especially the fullness thereof as you believe.

"Fullness thereof..." More circular reasoning, and also wrong. Cordially, Skip.

 

[ldsfaqs]

That's circular reasoning: "since the LDS church is led by a Prophet, it must be what God wanted since time immemorial." It's also wrong.

Sorry, no circular reasoning involved. Christ himself while on the earth established an authoritative Church and leadership. We are only following what the New Testament actually states.

If what you say is true, Jesus would have come back as a member of the priesthood, not as someone outside the fold, so to speak.

Not what I said at all.... Because he didn't re-establish the Church in our day that way either. It was restored through an outsider.

As well, one only need read Hebrews to understand the concept of the priesthood of the believer, and to understand how the lds view of the melchizedek priesthood is totally wrong.

Problem with that statement is that it's not actually talking about the "actual" Priesthood, it's talking about the unity of Faith and Spirit that is among the believers of the Church itself. It's similar to how everyone in our Church is also "Priests" and "Priestesses", even though only the men hold the actual Priesthood at whatever level.

Further, the other problem is you quote mine that one verse and create an entire doctrine from it while ignoring all the other scriptures which entirely show an Official and Authorized Priesthood and Authority in Christ's day, clearly debunking your Hebrews interpretation of what the actual doctrine of Christ is.

Even further, the Priesthood of all Believers idea NEVER EXISTED historically until 1400 years AFTER Christ when Martin Luther created it to justify his separation from the Holy Sea. In other words, it's an entirely man-made doctrine.

Finally, bear in mind that the veil in the temple was split upon Jesus' death, meaning that the Holy of Holies was open to everyone, not just those admitted by a corrupt gerontocracy.

That's right, the veil is torn, which is why every member of the Church is able to go though it in the modern day House of the Lord.

It's actually new wineskins, which you'd have known had you read the Bible.

DUH...! Wineskins ARE "jars" my friend. No difference in meaning, just different terms.

"Fullness thereof..." More circular reasoning, and also wrong. Cordially, Skip.

Just because you don't know it and see it, doesn't make it not true and not exist.

 

[RufustheRed]

text omitted for brevity​

Even further, the Priesthood of all Believers idea NEVER EXISTED historically until 1400 years AFTER Christ when Martin Luther created it to justify his separation from the Holy Sea. In other words, it's an entirely man-made doctrine.

Just curious, but can you tell us what a "Holy Sea" is? Where is this body of water that you are referring to?

Like I said, just curious

Happy New Year,

Rufus

 

[timbo3]

The difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons is like the difference between day and night. Mormons believe that "Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God."(preface, The Book of Mormon) Jehovah's Witnesses recognize Jesus own words, that "the Father is greater than I am".(John 14:28)

Jesus further said to the Jews: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know concerning the teachings whether it is from God or ("or", Greek e, a conjunction used to link two or more alternatives, Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) I speak of my own initiative."(John 7:16, 17) Thus, the word "or" used by Jesus provides a clear distinguishing line between himself and God.

Furthermore, on the night before his death, Jesus said in prayer to his Father: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."(John 17:3) And just a few days prior to this, he said that "concerning that day and hour (of the exact time when the great tribulation would begin) nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."(Matt 24:36)

And of his being "the Eternal God", Jesus said that he is "the beginning of the creation by God."(Rev 3:14) Though Jesus is living forever (Rom 6:9), he is not "the Eternal God", but was created by God, for Proverbs 8:22 says of him as wisdom personified, that "Jehovah himself produced ("produced", Hebrew qanah, meaning "to erect, i.e. create, to procure", Strong's H7069) me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago."

In what some call to "canvas doors, stop people on streets and present a new gospel", again the difference is like day and night. Jehovah's Witnesses follow Jesus words "to go, preach, saying: ' The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near...Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving and stay there until you leave. When you are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the peace is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you."(Matt 10:7, 11, 12)

During his (invisible) "presence" ("presence", Greek parousia, Matt 24:3, 27, 37, 39), Jesus further said that "this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."(Matt 24:14) Jehovah's Witnesses are following this command strictly, doing this assigned work in some 235 lands and islands of the sea.

Though Mormons do travel, even doing missionary work, they do not direct people's attention toward God's kingdom. In addition, it is usually only for a 2 year term that 2 young men or women serve (and perhaps some older adults). Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand, follow in Jesus "footsteps" in which everyone (1 Pet 2:21), from small child to old person that qualifies, go from "house to house" providing a witness concerning God's kingdom, with no specific age or time limit.(Acts 20:20; Matt 21:16)

Psalms 110:3 says that Jehovah's "people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force (since his enthronement as king in 1914, Rev 6:2)." Most all of Jehovah's Witnesses, regardless of age, are willingly involved in the global preaching and teaching work in these "last days", either in their local territory or in another area or perhaps far away from their home.

The Mormons place The Book of Mormons as having more weight scripturally than the Bible. Former LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley (1910-2008) wrote in the pamphlet What of the Mormons? (1976) that the "Bible is the Word of God. It is a basic Mormon teaching. But the Latter-day Saints recognize that errors have crept into this sacred work because of the manner in which the book has come to us. Moreover, they regard it as not being complete as a guide", and that the numerous different sects and churches &#8220;bear witness to the inadequacy of the Bible.&#8221;

However, Jehovah's Witnesses recognize that the Bible is God's word alone, that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17) The Bible is not ' inadequate', but can assist anyone to "be fully competent (Greek artios, meaning "complete"), completely equipped (Greek exertismenos, meaning "to equip fully as a teacher", base word exartizo, Strong's G1822) for every good work".

Jehovah's Witnesses fully recognize that God's name is Jehovah, with now there being a new King James Bible that has God's name Jehovah within the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly called the Old Testament, 6, 972 times instead of just the four times in the original edition. It is called The Divine Name King James Bible. The Mormons, nor do the churches, give loyal recognition to that name as God's. Moses was told by Jehovah, that "this is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation."(Ex 3:15; Isa 42:8)

The Mormons believe in the trinity, for Bruce McKonkie (1915-1985), member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, wrote that "three personages - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - comprise the Godhead."(Mormon Doctrine, A Compendium of the Gospel, 1958, pg 577)

On the other hand, Jehovah's Witnesses see Jehovah as the "one true God"(John 17:3) who has neither beginning nor end (Ps 90:2, KJV, Rev 15:3, New World Translation), and Jesus as his "only-begotten Son" (John 3:16, 18), who is "the beginning of the creation by God" and the holy spirit (not holy ghost) as Jehovah's active force or applied power (Luke 1:35; Gen 1:2) that he used in creating all things, for Psalms 104:30 says that "if you send forth your spirit, they are created; and you make the face of the ground new."

 

[Mordecai Anielewicz]

"The Mormons believe in the trinity, for Bruce McKonkie (1915-1985), member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, wrote that "three personages - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - comprise the Godhead."

Mormons do not believe in the Trinity per se, they believe God the Father and Jesus Christ each have bodies of flesh & bone sans blood with the Holy Spirit existing in spirit form only. This makes them three separate "Gods" united in purpose as a "Godhead".

This is not the triune God of the Trinity which is comprised of three co-eternally existent persons all of whom are one God.

 

[Rescued One]

The difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons is like the difference between day and night. Mormons believe that "Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God."(preface, The Book of Mormon) Jehovah's Witnesses recognize Jesus own words, that "the Father is greater than I am".(John 14:28)

Allow me to give you a little clarification on this topic:


Three glorified, exalted, and perfected personages comprise the Godhead or supreme presidency of the universe. . . . They are: God the Father; God the Son; God the Holy Ghost.
Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 319; also Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, God the Eternal Father, Chapter Three, p. 8


D. God is the Supreme Being in the universe.
1. God the Father is greater than all (see Ephesians
4:6; John 10:29).
2. As the Supreme Being, God the Father should be
the object of our love and worship (see D&C 18:40;
20:29; Joshua 22:5; Mark 12:30; D&C 4:2; Luke 4:8).
3. God created all things through His Son (see
Hebrews 1:1–2; Moses 1:32–33; 2:1).

E. The Father presides over the Godhead.
1. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are the
members of the Godhead (see Articles of Faith 1:1;
1 John 5:7; Alma 11:44).
(Bold mine)
Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, God the Eternal Father, Chapter Three, p. 6

LDS do not believe in the Trinity and reject the Nicene Creed as well as other creeds that were in existence in 1830.

Joseph Smith taught:
“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372; History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476)

 

[Rescued One]

Though Mormons do travel, even doing missionary work, they do not direct people's attention toward God's kingdom.

What is your definition of "God's kingdom?" Do Catholics and Protestants direct people towards God's kingdom?

The LDS do invite people to become members of what they regard God's kingdom:

The Book of Mormon is tangible evidence that Joseph Smith was chosen by the hand of the Lord to restore the Church of Jesus Christ to the earth in these latter days. As stated in the introduction to the Book of Mormon, 'Those who gain [a] divine witness from the Holy Spirit [of the divinity of the Book of Mormon] will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth.' "
Craig C. Christensen, "A Book with a Promise," Ensign, May 2008, 107


Kingdom of heaven or kingdom of God. These terms are used in various combinations and with varying meanings. Generally speaking, the kingdom of God on the earth is the Church. It is a preparation for the greater kingdom&#8212;the celestial or kingdom of heaven. This is the manner in which these terms are used in D&C 65. However, kingdom of heaven is sometimes used in scripture to mean the Church (as in Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 13; and 25:1&#8211;13), meaning that the true church on the earth is the path to heaven, and is the kingdom of heaven on earth.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the kingdom of God on the earth, but is at the present limited to an ecclesiastical kingdom. During the millennial era, the kingdom of God will be both political and ecclesiastical (see Dan. 7:18, 22, 27; Rev. 11:15; JST Rev. 12:1&#8211;3, 7; D&C 65), and will have worldwide jurisdiction in political realms when the Lord has made &#8220;a full end of all nations&#8221; (D&C 87:6).
Kingdom of heaven or kingdom of God

 

[Skip Sampson]

Just curious, but can you tell us what a "Holy Sea" is? Where is this body of water that you are referring to?

I think it's what he pours into his new jars. Cordially, Skip.

 

[he-man]

What is your definition

See below in My Father's kingdom."

Spending time on the Bible is not the same as actually seeing what it teaches.Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
The LDS declare orthodox interpretations of very clear verses to be incorrect: "Isaiah 44:6 reads: "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
"Passages such as Isa 44:6,8 and 45:5,21 that read "no God beside me" or a variation of that phrase are traditionally interpreted by mainstream anti-Mormons as meaning that other than Yahweh no form of deity exists at all, including exalted men. This type of interpretation at first seems obvious, but after considering similar passages in other parts of scripture it is clear that this interpretation is incorrect. "
(Bold mine)

Matthew 26:27-29
(27) Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. (28) For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (29) But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

OK Let us look at other scripture:
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Which Hebrew words do you not agree with and tell me what the word or words should mean in the following:
Is 43:10 You are My witness, said GOD, and servant who I have chosen: so that you may know and believe Me, to understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there exist1 after Me.
1* Hebrew &#1497;&#1492;&#1497;&#1492; to be, exist, be present; happen, occur, take place: become, turn into

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11 I am GOD; and without1 me there is no saviour.
1* Hebrew &#1502;&#1489;&#1500;&#1506;&#1491;&#1497; without

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Is 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God besides me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

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Isa 44:6 Thus saith the Lord, the King of Israel, and the redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the only first, and I am the last; and besides me is no God.

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Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
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Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

&#1492;&#1490;&#1497;&#1491;&#1493; &#1493;&#1492;&#1490;&#1497;&#1513;&#1493; &#1488;&#1507; &#1497;&#1493;&#1506;&#1510;&#1493; &#1497;&#1495;&#1491;&#1493; &#1502;&#1497; &#1492;&#1513;&#1502;&#1497;&#1506; &#1494;&#1488;&#1514; &#1502;&#1511;&#1491;&#1501; &#1502;&#1488;&#1494; &#1492;&#1490;&#1497;&#1491;&#1492; &#1492;&#1500;&#1493;&#1488; &#1488;&#1504;&#1497; &#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492; &#1493;&#1488;&#1497;&#1503;-&#1506;&#1493;&#1491; &#1488;&#1500;&#1492;&#1497;&#1501; &#1502;&#1489;&#1500;&#1506;&#1491;&#1497; &#1488;&#1500;-&#1510;&#1491;&#1497;&#1511; &#1493;&#1502;&#1493;&#1513;&#1497;&#1506; &#1488;&#1497;&#1503; &#1494;&#1493;&#1500;&#1514;&#1497;
prep. except, but for, besides

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else besides me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none besides me.

 

[Skip Sampson]

Christ himself while on the earth established an authoritative Church and leadership.

Who did he place in charge? And by what means would said authority transfer? And when was it 'lost' so that Smith could 'find' it again?

Problem with that statement is that it's not actually talking about the "actual" Priesthood, it's talking about the unity of Faith and Spirit that is among the believers of the Church itself. ... Even further, the Priesthood of all Believers idea NEVER EXISTED historically until 1400 years AFTER Christ when Martin Luther created it to justify his separation from the Holy Sea. In other words, it's an entirely man-made doctrine.

That's not true; you are confusing the title of the concept itself for its biblical support. Luther certainly used the idea to put distance between himself and Rome, but the idea has strong scriptural support which predates his title (emphasis added):

As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. ... But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Peter 2:4 & 9)

The introduction to Hebrews in my NIV speaks to the entire priesthood issue. It's worth repeating here:

The theme of Hebrews is the absolute supremacy and sufficiency of Jesus Christ as revealer and as mediator of God's grace. The prologue (1:1-4) presents Christ as God's full and final revelation, far surpassing the revelation given in the OT. The prophecies and promises of the OT are fulfilled in the "new covenant" (or "new testament"), of which Christ is the mediator. From the OT itself, Christ is shown to be superior to the ancient prophets, to angels, to Moses (the mediator of the former covenant) and to Aaron and the priestly succession descended from him. ... The readers are told that there can be no turning back to or continuation in the old Jewish system, which has been superseded by the unique priesthood of Christ. God's people must now look only to him, whose atoning death, resurrection and ascension have opened the way into the true, heavenly sanctuary of God's presence.

Hebrews also addresses the issue directly is in its discussion of the Melchizedek priesthood, which it clearly indicates is possessed by Jesus and is not transferable. Compare this with the structure you and the JW's have in place:

If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. For it is declared: “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.”

The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’”

Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever. (Heb 7:11-28)

Mormons and JW's, and Catholics as well, have ignored that section of Hebrews. This is so their leadership could exercise power over their members under the guise of OT practices. But the Christian knows who his mediator is, and focuses on him alone. Lastly, compare the real Melchizedek Priesthood to that corruption given most LDS boys out of high school and you'll see why I hold LDS beliefs and practices in such contempt. Nothing personal, you understand.

It's similar to how everyone in our Church is also "Priests" and "Priestesses", even though only the men hold the actual Priesthood at whatever level.

So women are Priestesses, but hold no Priesthood? That about par for the course for Mormons.

Further, the other problem is you quote mine that one verse and create an entire doctrine from it while ignoring all the other scriptures which entirely show an Official and Authorized Priesthood and Authority in Christ's day, clearly debunking your Hebrews interpretation of what the actual doctrine of Christ is.

Feel free to start, or refer to, a thread that shows where I have it wrong. I think it better said that you are able to misinterpret Bible verses to prove that which you must prove.

That's right, the veil is torn, which is why every member of the Church is able to go though it in the modern day House of the Lord.

No, it was torn in the Temple to show that one no longer needed a HP, or a Temple, to intercede with God for him. All believers now had Jesus to do the intercessions. It is a specific change to a specific OT practice for a specific reason.

I hope you are not referring to the LDS Temple ceremonies in your comment. It would be hard to fathom a comparison more inept than that would be.

Wineskins ARE "jars" my friend. No difference in meaning, just different terms.

There sure is a difference in their biblical usage, especially in John 2, whcih applies. The jars were of stone and the 'jars' you mistakenly refer to were animal skins. The issue of new wine in new skin refers to the expansion that occurs. Putting new wine into an old skin would probably burst it. I don't believe that happens in stone jars. Maybe Joseph Smith had a revelation on that topic.

I really would suggest becoming more familiar with the Bible, and not just how Mormon commentators misinterpret it. Cordially, Skip.

 

[ldsfaqs]

The difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons is like the difference between day and night. Mormons believe that "Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God."(preface, The Book of Mormon) Jehovah's Witnesses recognize Jesus own words, that "the Father is greater than I am".(John 14:28)

Actually we believe BOTH, because that is what the scriptures teach, including the Bible.
If you are only believing what you stated and not the first, then you follow man-made doctrine, rather than what the Bible in full teaches.

Jesus further said to the Jews: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do his will, he will know concerning the teachings whether it is from God or ("or", Greek e, a conjunction used to link two or more alternatives, Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) I speak of my own initiative."(John 7:16, 17) Thus, the word "or" used by Jesus provides a clear distinguishing line between himself and God.

That's right, which along with the above and more, we are not Trinitarians but believe Christ and the Father are "separate beings".

Furthermore, on the night before his death, Jesus said in prayer to his Father: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."(John 17:3) And just a few days prior to this, he said that "concerning that day and hour (of the exact time when the great tribulation would begin) nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."(Matt 24:36)

Right, ditto above....

However, it's funny you quote that, because multiple times the leaders of your religion HAS said when Christ would come, and they were wrong, clearly you thus belong to a religion of men, not Gods literal Church. No LDS has ever made such a statement. (although our enemy's do pervert one of Joseph's statements and the history trying to make such a claim, but that's their lying, not the actual facts and truth).

And of his being "the Eternal God", Jesus said that he is "the beginning of the creation by God."(Rev 3:14) Though Jesus is living forever (Rom 6:9), he is not "the Eternal God", but was created by God, for Proverbs 8:22 says of him as wisdom personified, that "Jehovah himself produced ("produced", Hebrew qanah, meaning "to erect, i.e. create, to procure", Strong's H7069) me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago."

Well, yes, he is a "spirit son" of God, as we all are, but he also is one of the Godhead, thus "God" in that sense, when he acts on the Fathers Will. He also is the Only Begotten Son, meaning the only Spirit Child of His to be sirred by him as a mortal. Not through sex like our enemy's pervert, but through the Holy Ghost, i.e. Father's seed placed into Mary or similar.

In what some call to "canvas doors, stop people on streets and present a new gospel", again the difference is like day and night. Jehovah's Witnesses follow Jesus words "to go, preach, saying: ' The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near...Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving and stay there until you leave. When you are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the peace is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you."(Matt 10:7, 11, 12)

How's the difference night and day? We do the same as you.

During his (invisible) "presence" ("presence", Greek parousia, Matt 24:3, 27, 37, 39), Jesus further said that "this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."(Matt 24:14) Jehovah's Witnesses are following this command strictly, doing this assigned work in some 235 lands and islands of the sea.

Yep, and so do LDS.

Though Mormons do travel, even doing missionary work, they do not direct people's attention toward God's kingdom. In addition, it is usually only for a 2 year term that 2 young men or women serve (and perhaps some older adults). Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand, follow in Jesus "footsteps" in which everyone (1 Pet 2:21), from small child to old person that qualifies, go from "house to house" providing a witness concerning God's kingdom, with no specific age or time limit.(Acts 20:20; Matt 21:16)

Buzz wrong, we do direct to the Kingdom, we ARE the Kingdom of God restored to the earth, we have all the backing to prove it. Your removing and adding some scriptures to the Bible, and having no Prophets, Apostles etc., revelations, new scripture, angels, father and son, etc., doesn't demonstrate your authority. Your's is just another man-made religion "guessing".... With all due respect. Sincere, but still guessing and assuming authority never given by God.

Psalms 110:3 says that Jehovah's "people will offer themselves willingly on the day of your military force (since his enthronement as king in 1914, Rev 6:2)." Most all of Jehovah's Witnesses, regardless of age, are willingly involved in the global preaching and teaching work in these "last days", either in their local territory or in another area or perhaps far away from their home.

LDS are the same. Only difference is that some are specifically called to the Work just as the Bible also teaches.

The Mormons place The Book of Mormons as having more weight scripturally than the Bible. Former LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley (1910-2008) wrote in the pamphlet What of the Mormons? (1976) that the "Bible is the Word of God. It is a basic Mormon teaching. But the Latter-day Saints recognize that errors have crept into this sacred work because of the manner in which the book has come to us. Moreover, they regard it as not being complete as a guide", and that the numerous different sects and churches “bear witness to the inadequacy of the Bible.”

Buzz false.... All scripture has equal weight to LDS. Recognizing how the Bible came to be, how it's not the end all to God's word, nor perfect in his word, doesn't mean it's not just as important. Yes, other scripture and revelations clarify some things, but not the same thing. Further, who are you to talk? You've removed whole sections of the Bible simply because you didn't like them.

However, Jehovah's Witnesses recognize that the Bible is God's word alone, that "all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17) The Bible is not ' inadequate', but can assist anyone to "be fully competent (Greek artios, meaning "complete"), completely equipped (Greek exertismenos, meaning "to equip fully as a teacher", base word exartizo, Strong's G1822) for every good work".

haa haa.... You say it's "God's word ALONE", and then you quote a scripture that says "ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God....."
Problem here is that the Bible doesn't say anywhere that it is ALONE, or the end all to God's Word. Your scripture quote even implies such.

BTW, the "Bible" didn't exist when that statement was made.
Again, it refers to ALL scripture, not the Catholic Bible, the Orthodox Bible, the Protestant Bible, the JW Bible, and the million and one translations which often corrupt the scripture.

Jehovah's Witnesses fully recognize that God's name is Jehovah, with now there being a new King James Bible that has God's name Jehovah within the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly called the Old Testament, 6, 972 times instead of just the four times in the original edition. It is called The Divine Name King James Bible. The Mormons, nor do the churches, give loyal recognition to that name as God's. Moses was told by Jehovah, that "this is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation."(Ex 3:15; Isa 42:8)

Ya, that's actually Christ speaking to Moses with the name Jehovah.
Elohim is actually the Father's official name.
You guys misinterpret the scripture.

The Mormons believe in the trinity, for Bruce McKonkie (1915-1985), member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, wrote that "three personages - Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - comprise the Godhead."(Mormon Doctrine, A Compendium of the Gospel, 1958, pg 577)

We believe in three that is the Godhead, as the Bible teaches.
We don't believe in the Nicene Trinity. It's non-Biblical.

On the other hand, Jehovah's Witnesses see Jehovah as the "one true God"(John 17:3) who has neither beginning nor end (Ps 90:2, KJV, Rev 15:3, New World Translation), and Jesus as his "only-begotten Son" (John 3:16, 18), who is "the beginning of the creation by God" and the holy spirit (not holy ghost) as Jehovah's active force or applied power (Luke 1:35; Gen 1:2) that he used in creating all things, for Psalms 104:30 says that "if you send forth your spirit, they are created; and you make the face of the ground new."

If Jehovah is that, then who is "Elohim".....?
Again, you misinterpret the scripture, and it's one of the reasons why you don't recognize Jesus as ALSO "God" when he's serving in the Godhead as Jehovah, relating to the first section of my comments to you, and just above.

Anyway, hope I've clarified some things for you....

 

[ldsfaqs]

Who did he place in charge? And by what means would said authority transfer? And when was it 'lost' so that Smith could 'find' it again?

- The Apostles and other officers of the Church.
- Laying on of Hands by the Priesthood of Melchizedek which Priesthood Christ held after the Order Of. And when one Apostle was lost they were replaced. There are 8-10 known replacements after the original 12.
- The deaths of the Apostles.

That's not true; you are confusing the title of the concept itself for its biblical support. Luther certainly used the idea to put distance between himself and Rome, but the idea has strong scriptural support which predates his title (emphasis added):

I understand that there is a "little" scriptural support for an idea similar to that, but it's exactly the idea that LDS also practice and have, outside of the Official Priesthood. It's NOT an actual Priesthood which gives you any authority whatsoever to proclaim, direct, lead, etc. At most it gives you some authority and power in BELIEF ONLY.

The introduction to Hebrews in my NIV speaks to the entire priesthood issue. It's worth repeating here:

If you know the Greek and Hebrew a bit better, it's not speaking of the Priesthood that various people officially were given. It's speaking of a "spiritual" authority outside of the official authority, as I explained above. Anyone that comes unto Christ and the Father becomes of a "priestly/royal" line. This is why LDS don't have ministry's against other Faiths and the Faithful, because we follow Christ's command in this matter per Mark 9 & Luke 9 concerning believers not with the Church and not with God's Authority.

Hebrews also addresses the issue directly is in its discussion of the Melchizedek priesthood, which it clearly indicates is possessed by Jesus and is not transferable. Compare this with the structure you and the JW's have in place:

Why don't you read you own words here more carefully.
You just state Christ has the "Melchizedek" Priesthood, but then state it's not transferable. How did Christ get it then? How did Melchizedek get it then?

The Priesthood WAS/IS transferrable, same as the Priesthood of Aaron was.
Christ gave his authority to the Apostles, which is why they were able to preach HIS Gospel with Authority and Truth.

Mormons and JW's, and Catholics as well, have ignored that section of Hebrews. This is so their leadership could exercise power over their members under the guise of OT practices. But the Christian knows who his mediator is, and focuses on him alone. Lastly, compare the real Melchizedek Priesthood to that corruption given most LDS boys out of high school and you'll see why I hold LDS beliefs and practices in such contempt. Nothing personal, you understand.

Nope, as I've said, LDS do not ignore it. Yes, you are correct maybe that other ignore it, or should I say "lost" it in the Apostasy, but LDS most certainly do practice it. However, YOU do indeed ignore the official priesthood and authority indicated through the entire New Testament. There is one especially clear example of authority in the Bible. Some leaders of the Church baptized some people. They had the authority to do that. But, they had to wait for someone else to come who had the authority to give the Gift of the Holy Ghost, if I'm remembering right, it was an Apostle the one that came. The are others, but that's a clear example of authority that you assume, not given you.

The Priesthood with LDS boys is a wonderful thing.... This thing alone helps our young men become greater men of God, and greater men of society. You call it evil, I call it wonderful, for I see the fruits of that Priesthood.

So women are Priestesses, but hold no Priesthood? That about par for the course for Mormons.

Are you calling us "sexist"? If so, you know nothing about us.
Was all those in scripture sexist and racist when they restricted things?

Feel free to start, or refer to, a thread that shows where I have it wrong. I think it better said that you are able to misinterpret Bible verses to prove that which you must prove.

The Priesthood of all Believers concept is an example of my point.
You take one scripture, and create an entire doctrine around it, entirely ignoring the actual pattern of the Priesthood system that existed both in the Old Testament AND in the New Testament. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches while having lost a lot, etc., that's one thing that has been mostly the same from the beginning. They didn't make up their Priesthood systems later. Christ Himself and His Apostles established them. And guess what, the LDS system is almost entirely the same, with only some minor differences due to 2,000 years of apostasy.

No, it was torn in the Temple to show that one no longer needed a HP, or a Temple, to intercede with God for him. All believers now had Jesus to do the intercessions. It is a specific change to a specific OT practice for a specific reason.

That's right, and no LDS needs a High Priest to intercede between them and God. Every LDS is able to go to God themselves. The Priesthood isn't about getting in-between man and God, you have that wrong from the get go. It wasn't even that way before. It's about God's organization and doctrines on the earth. God has always had his Watchmen..... be it Prophets of Old, or the Apostles and other officers of the Church.

I hope you are not referring to the LDS Temple ceremonies in your comment. It would be hard to fathom a comparison more inept than that would be.

What's "inept" about it? When we do our ceremony every member is able to cross over the veil. In other words, the veil IS torn.

There sure is a difference in their biblical usage, especially in John 2, whcih applies. The jars were of stone and the 'jars' you mistakenly refer to were animal skins. The issue of new wine in new skin refers to the expansion that occurs. Putting new wine into an old skin would probably burst it. I don't believe that happens in stone jars. Maybe Joseph Smith had a revelation on that topic.

I understand what you are saying, but that wasn't my point.
So stop changing the subject getting into irrelevant to my point minutia.
My point was simply that even Christ didn't insert himself into and with authority into the "existing" Church, he created an entirely NEW one, hence the point of the analogy. Thus, why would anyone expect if he established his Church yet again in the last days as prophesied, he would do anything different?

I really would suggest becoming more familiar with the Bible, and not just how Mormon commentators misinterpret it. Cordially, Skip.

Sorry, would recommend YOU get familiar with what the Bible actually states instead of what your religion tells you it states. I knew the Bible well before being mormon, and it's the only religion that in full and accurately fits the book. Again, your religion tells you a Priesthood of all Believers and nothing else, you ignore the rest of the New Testament which clearly teaches different. Your religion and others have all kinds of doctrines they's created by quote mining a scripture or two, and completely ignoring other scriptures which contradict such an interpretation.

So sorry.... It's you my friend that really need to learn your Bible.

 

[Mordecai Anielewicz]

"Elohim is actually the Father's official name.
You guys misinterpret the scripture."

&#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; transliterated as "Elohim" Is not a name it is a title and means "The God" when it is used with singular verbs or adjectives. When it is used with plural verbs and adjectives it means "gods" or "powers".

Nowhere in the Tanakh or in any other Hebrew sacred writings is "Elohim" ever used or even considered as a name.

The only proper name for God is &#1497;&#1456;&#1492;&#1465;&#1493;&#1464;&#1492; which out of respect we usually don't voice instead using the words &#1488;&#1458;&#1491;&#1465;&#1504;&#1464;&#1497; Adonai (lord) or &#1488;&#1457;&#1500;&#1492;&#1460;&#1497;&#1501; Elohim (God) and some Orthodox even go so far as to say simply &#1492;&#1513;&#1501; HaShem (The Name) in order to not use the name of God disrespectfully.

If your church cannot even interpret this simple Hebrew word correctly why should we believe anything else your religion has to say?