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What is the Day of the Lord?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Quasar92, Jul 28, 2017.

  1. claninja

    claninja Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on hal, lighten up a bit. I apologize for reading you wrong. As you like to call others names, I thought you wouldn't mind a little sarcasm. I had no intention of influencing your thinking. Your mind appears made up already. My only intention was to get you to think about spiritual life and spiritual death.
     
  2. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Understanding the Day of the Lord

    1 Thessalonians 5:1-9

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

    2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    The key in being able to better understand how God’s final judgement is going to unfold in these last days, and when it begins, can easily be found by first looking at what the Bible refers to as, ‘the day of the Lord.’ It is absolutely necessary that we know the meaning of it, what it’s consequences on the world are going to be, and what we need to be doing right now in order to prepare ourselves for it so that we don’t have to go through it.

    Before I began my own research on this subject only a couple of weeks ago, I had no idea what it was all about other than knowing that it’s going to be a horrible time for anyone unfortunate enough to be here when it comes I knew it was God’s judgement on an unbelieving and wicked world but there is so much more to know about it than that. It is my hope and prayer that people take this message seriously and begin making their own preparations so they can avoid it. Jesus Himself described it this way in Matthew 24:21: “For then shall there be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

    In order for me to get a better grasp of what the ‘day of the Lord’ is, I decided to look up other verses that talk about it and it didn’t take long for my eyes to be opened. As soon as I began reading them the scales fell away from my eyes and God showed me exactly what I was looking for. Things just began falling into place for me as far as being able to better understand God’s timing regarding certain events which are about to take place. There is no ‘secret knowledge’ involved in any of what God showed me because it is all found in His written Word.

    The following are verses that helped me the most in my study and I want to share them with you. There are many others that also talk about it but I wanted to limit how many I included for the sake of time and space. Here they are:

    Isaiah 13:6 – Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
    Isaiah 13:9 – Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    Ezekiel 30:3 – For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
    Joel 1:15 – Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
    Amos 5:18 – Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.
    Obadiah 1:15 – For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

    What stands out for me more than anything else is the unmistakable clarity as to who the ‘day of the Lord’ is intended. It’s purpose is to ‘destroy the sinners’ and it is ‘the time of the heathen.’ The day of the Lord will be accompanied by ‘wrath and fierce’ anger. That leaves all of us out who have made our preparations ahead of time for not having to be included in this time of judgement by repenting of our sins and asking Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. We have asked for His forgiveness for all of our many sins and have received the gift of eternal life. There is no longer the danger of having to experience God’s wrath:

    1 Thessalonians 5:9 – For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,”

    Romans 5:1 – “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Peace with God means that He no longer has anything to be angry with us about or to judge us for because Jesus took our punishment upon Himself on the cross.)

    2 Corinthians 5:21 – “For he hath made Him to be sin for us: who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

    Ellicott’s Commentary defines the ‘day of the Lord’ as being “a fixed time for vengeance to be taken upon the heathen.” It also defines it as a “general day of judgement for mankind.”

    Meyer’s New Testament Commentary (which also includes some of the Hebrew words) defines it as the “near impending period, when the present order of the world will come to an end, and Christ in His glory will return to earth for the resurrection of the dead, the general judgement, and the completion of the kingdom of God;”

    And finally, gotquestions.org, which I have always found to be a good and reliable source of information, defines it this way: “The phrase “day of the Lord” usually identifies events that take place at the end of history and is often closely associated with the phrase “that day.” One key to understanding these phrases is to note that they always identify a span of time during which God personally intervenes in history, directly or indirectly, to accomplish some specific aspect of His plan.”

    To recap: The day of the Lord will cover a span of time, it is intended for all those who never gave their lives to Christ, and will be all inclusive in that it will include all of the various elements (more on these shortly) of God’s judgement for the purpose of the destruction of sinners. That sounds pretty horrible, and it is, which is why we need to keep sharing the gospel of love to the people we come into contact with and pray for them!

    Now that we have all of this information before us, the question to be asked is, when does it start? That can be found in the following verse:

    1 Thessalonians 5:2,3 – 2 “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

    There you have it. The Rapture of the Church is what ushers in the ‘day of the Lord’ and is the first judgement to take place in it and is accompanied by ‘sudden destruction’ which is actually triggered by the Rapture itself. Think about it, the world will be turned on it’s head after the Rapture occurs.

    Since we know the Rapture (or the “catching away of the believers”) is what ushers in the ‘day of the Lord’, then that means the Rapture will be the first element of God’s judgement that all of those who were left behind will have to deal with, as well as the sudden destruction which goes hand in hand with it. Further, it also means that all of the other elements that make up this time of judgement which are to follow the Rapture, such as the arrival of the Antichrist, the signing of a peace agreement and rebuilding of the third temple, the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl judgements included in the 7 year Tribuation period, and anything else I failed to mention here, have absolutely nothing to do with those of us who are saved because we will be in heaven when they take place. That means the whole debate about whether the Rapture of the Church is a pre/mid/post tribulation event has now become a moot point for us. The 7 year Tribulation period is what makes up the heart of the day of the Lord and as we’ve learned we will have no part in it. We won’t even be around it.

    The Tribulation, as most people refer to it as, is also called ‘the time of Jacob’s trouble’ and it is during this 7 year period that God is going to restore His relationship with the Jewish people. It is during this period that they will finally come to believe that Jesus Christ really is their long awaited Messiah. It is not going to be an easy time for either the Jews or the world while all this is going on. God’s wrath and anger are going to be poured out like no one has ever seen before and will never be seen again.

    Let’s take a quick look at Revelation 4:1,2 so that we can bring this to a close:

    1 “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

    What many scholars and teachers have believed all along, is true, that John was allowed to witness and record the actual Rapture event itself. The similarities between these verses in Revelation 4 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 are undeniable. I believe that our Rapture experience is going to be the same as what John experienced in his vision and that we are going to see the same things that he saw which is why God had him record it. What John recorded in Revelation 4:1 is what takes place in 1 Thessalonians 5:2. The statement God made to John, “…and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter” is to further establish what we’ve already learned and that is that first comes our departure and then comes judgement.

    To sum it all up, I think that the confusion and controversy regarding our blessed hope (Titus 2:13) may be caused by the fact that there is no mention of ‘the day of the Lord’ in our Rapture discussions. You can’t have one without the other. Just focusing on the Rapture event itself has caused so much confusion through the years that it’s created major divisions in the Church. God, as we know, isn’t the author of confusion so He made clear in His Word exactly how and when it’s going to happen.

    I think that Isaiah 28:9-13 (google it) applies quite well here but you will need a commentary to really understand it. From Forerunner Commentary; “This is very similar to Jesus’ explanation of parables. God says He scatters understanding on any given subject throughout the Bible, and our job is to put it all together and see the amazing truth that results. Therefore, parables cannot be interpreted alone; they rely on the revelation of the rest of Scripture.” – Richard T. Ritenbaugh, Parables and Prophecy

    It’s time to make our preparations for the coming of the ‘day of the Lord’ and the only way we can do that is to be absolutely certain that our relationship with God is where it needs to be. Simply believing that God exists isn’t enough (James 2:19). “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” – John 3:3

    By Chuck Steele


    Quasar92
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Based on the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, the timing of the resurrection event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5.

    We have the same language in 2 Peter 3:10-13, and Revelation 16:15-16, which shows it to be an event which occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.

    This was the understanding of the Church for the first 1800 years of its history.

    However, that was before John Nelson Darby showed up in America with his Two Peoples of God doctrine, about the time of the Civil War.
    Later Darby's doctrine was printed in the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible.
    This doctrine then spread like a virus through the modern evangelical Church.


    .
     
  4. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The events of 1 Thess.4:16 are not the Day of the Lord. They are the day of Christ. The Day of the Lord is the day of God's wrath, as depicted in Mt.24:21. The worst the world will ever experience. Fully described in Rev.6 through 19. Prove the verse is a rapture. Jesus let John know, the resurrection seven years later, of the tribulation martyrs is the FIRST one.


    Quasar92
     
  5. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Act 2:36  "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 

    .
     
  6. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Remembering our revealed context of condemning "Babylon", so Rev 16:15 alludes to Isaiah 47:3, describing God stripping, exposing, & uncovering "Babylon" for unfaithfulness (utilizing a then-common Middle Eastern practice of shaming adulterers by physically removing all of their clothing).

    Recall, the True Church is the faithful "Bride of Christ" and "virtuous woman" (Rev 12), e.g. the Apostles including St. Paul, whereas those who rejected Jesus as Messiah, due to compromises with secular influences such as the 1st century AD pagan Roman empire are, per the usual OT metaphor, described oppositely, as "whores & adulterers", namely "Babylon... the mother of harlots" (Rev 17-18).

    So Rev 16-18 describes a Judgement-like day to befall "Babylon", the Spiritual image of 1st century AD Jerusalem, which had caused the Crucifixion. It echoes Matt 24-25, en route to and upon the Mount of Olives, when Jesus foretold the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in 70 AD, with the words "no stone shall remain upon another" and "this generation shall not pass away before all these things come to pass".

    Rev 16:15 was a reminder to 1st century AD Christians not to fall away & be deluded or Deceived by the many false prophets & tribulations to come (Matt 24-25) between the Crucifixion in c.30 AD and the destruction the Temple in 70 AD. Josephus describes those numerous "Messianic claimants" and the many minor miracles they purported to have demonstrated, including the false Messiahs who incited Judaea to rebel against Rome.

    The eventual day of Doom in 70 AD did surprise the 1st century AD Jewish rebels, because it had looked like Rome had retreated and succumbed to internal dissentions after the death of emperor Nero in 68 AD. But the "wounded" pagan empire "miraculously healed" and returned in 70 AD to sack the city and topple the Temple. Many of the original Christians were still alive, e.g. the Apostle John, and no stone remained upon another, so vindicating the Prophesy of Jesus as Divine. Knowing and heeding Matt 24-25, they "ran to the mountains" and found refuge in Pella, just outside of Roman reach. The rest followed the Zealots & false Messiahs, and were crushed by emperor Vespasian and his son Titus.

    Scripture describes numerous "days of judgement" and even numerous "resurrections", but they do not all refer to "The" singular "Judgement Day" at the end of this present world's timeline of existence at the "Lord's Arrival" (Rev 20:10ff).
     
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever" at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.

    Rev 11:15  Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 


    Shortly after the 7th trump we find "the time of the judgment of the dead".

    Rev 11:18  The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." 

    This time of judgment is described below by Christ as occurring at the time of the bodily resurrection of "all" the dead.

    Joh 5:27  and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 
    Joh 5:28  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 

    Joh 5:29  and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 

    Joh 5:30  I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. 


    This is the end of the story and proves that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
    It is a series of overlapping visions given to the Apostle John.


    Chapter 12 begins with a review of Church history, including the birth and death of the "man-child", who is Christ, based on Psalm 2.


    Attempting to understand the Book of Revelation has produced tremendous confusion in the modern Church.
    Many have chosen the confusion of Futurism, while others have chosen the confusion of extreme Preterism.
    The truth is somewhere in between these two.


    .
     
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  8. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What is the difference between the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord?

    A number of references are made in the NT to the Day of Christ or the Day of the Lord Jesus. The Apostle Paul seeking to encourage the Philippian Christians stated in Phil.1:6 “Being confident of this very thing that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” He would go on to exhort them to “approve the things that are excellent that ye might be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ.” (v. 10). Later in this same epistle, Paul stated that he hoped they would hold forth the Word of life so that he might rejoice in the day of Christ, so that he would not have run in vain neither labored in vain. (2.16) Likewise, to the Corinthian assembly — an assembly known for it’s blatant carnality, he could positively affirm the sanctifying work that the Lord would ultimately accomplish in their lives when he reminded them: “He shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor. 1.8)


    In each of these instances and more in the NT, the Day of Christ has only positive connotations for the Christian. It is that period of time in biblical prophecy that will commence the long-awaited for union in heaven of the Church, the Bride of Christ with her Bridegroom, the Lord Jesus. It is the culmination of the “blessed hope” of the believer (Titus 2.13), a hope that has been operative through the centuries (though obscure at times) ever since the days of the Thessalonians who eagerly waited for the Son from heaven (1 Thess. 1.10) It will begin when the Church is raptured from this scene to meet the Lord in the air to ever be with Him (1 Thess. 4.13-17) It will also begin the judgment seat of Christ in which each Christian’s life and works will be reviewed and rewarded in accordance with faithfulness to the Lord. Because this judgment is one of evaluation rather than punishment, it will not deal with the issue of salvation, but instead with the issue of service for the Lord — reward for proper motives in ministry and the loss of reward for improper motives. (1 Cor. 3:14-15) The judgment seat of Christ will apparently conclude before the Tribulation period begins since the twenty-four elders in Rev. 4-5 viewed by many as the representative of the Church are described as being in heaven and crowned.

    …edification

    The Day of Christ is contrasted in Scripture with the Day of the Lord — a period of time referred to many times in the OT (Joel 2.11; Zeph. 1.14; Mal. 4.5 etc.) In biblical chronology, the Day of the Lord follows the Day of Christ. Whereas the Day of Christ has particular reference to the blessing of the Church in heaven, the Day of the Lord refers to the time of unparalleled judgment upon Israel and the nations on earth — a time referred to in Scripture as the time of “Jacob’s trouble” (Jer. 30:7) and “the great day of His (the Lord’s) wrath” (Rev. 6.17). Though the initial period of the Day of the Lord will be horrific — a seven-year period of intense Tribulation on earth, it will also include the Millennium — a 1000 year reign of peace and prosperity under the rule of the Prince of Peace. This period of time though peaceful, is included in the Day of the Lord since it will witness the direct intervention and judgment of the Lord in the affairs of man as He rules in righteousness. During this time, He will immediately put down all sin and rebellion in contradistinction to the grace and long-suffering that He demonstrates today as He patiently waits for men and women to repent and turn to Him in faith. The Day of Christ is also contrasted to the Day of God (2 Peter 3.12) a reference to eternity which will occur at the conclusion of the Day of the Lord when the elements will melt with fervent heat in preparation for “new heavens and a new earth in which dwelleth righteousness” (v.13)

    and exhortation…..

    How am I to live in the light of this teaching about the Day of Christ?

    1 John 3.3 reminds us of the practical side of this NT truth: “And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.” The return of the Lord which begins the Day of Christ should occupy the heart of every believer. Just as Abraham “looked for a city which hath foundations whose builder and maker is God” (Heb. 11.10) so too every Christian should be looking for “that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2.13) As we do, we will become less enamored with the things of this world and focus on what really matters in life — matters such as the salvation of the lost, good works, and personal holiness. Instead of living carelessly as to our Christian responsibilities, we will be abiding in Him and doing “those things that are pleasing in His sight” (1 John 3.22). Consequently, we will “have confidence and not be ashamed at His coming” (1 John 2.28). The reality of the truth of His imminent return if adhered to will be a purifying hope in the life of the believer and valuable in conforming us to the image of Christ. \

    …and comfort.

    Why can I look forward to the Day of Christ?

    One reason to look forward to the Day of Christ is that it will conclude the difficulties and struggles with sin that we have known all too often in our walk with the Lord. The snares and hindrances that have often prevented our full enjoyment of the Lord will forever be put away. There will be a new perspective and a new freedom in our worship of Him. Not only will we be reunited with others who have gone before us — family and friends in the Lord — but we will see face to face the One whom we have been serving by faith through the years. At that time, our faith will give way to sight and our joy will be boundless as we begin to understand more fully the way in which He led us in life, including answers to some of the questions we may have had through the years, such as “why” and “how come”. The secret things that belong to the Lord (Deut. 29.29) will be made known to us and as the Apostle Paul said “we shall know, even as we are known” (1 Cor 13.12) Certainly, it will be a day of rejoicing!

    “When we all get to heaven,
    what a day of rejoicing that will be,

    When we all see Jesus,
    we sing and shout the victory!”


    Quasar92
     
  9. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There are twelve "minor" prophets that are yet to be really discovered by most Christians. (They are called "minor" simply because they are smaller - shorter, more terse, and concise.) Yet they contain some of the most fascinating and provocative prophecies you'll find anywhere in the Scriptures. Here's a glimpse of two of them.

    Joel:
    Joel is a short book (only three chapters, 73 verses) devoted almost entirely to the most climactic period in all Scripture: "The Day of the Lord," the final climax that we all anticipate. It's surprising that even students of prophecy seem to overlook this little gem. The very name Joel means, "Yahweh is God." As we learn to recognize that Revelation 9 - 19 has Israel as its primary focus, we should not be surprised that most of what we know about that period is from the Old Testament, and much of that from this fascinating little book.

    The Day of the Lord:
    The primary theme in the book of Joel is The Day of the Lord. It's an important book because it records Israel's place in God's program: from Babylon all the way through to the Millennium. Joel also has a lot to say about the Gentile nations and their collision course to Armageddon. Joel's second chapter reads like news camera footage of modern combat helicopters and troops in action! Except the cosmic effects are most terrifying: [font='HELVETICA NEUE', HELVETICA, ARIAL, SANS-SERIF]
    "The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." -Joel 2:10, 31

    Peter also recognized that the astonishing events of Pentecost in Acts Chapter 2 were ushering in the preparation for the end times, and he quoted from Joel to make his point (Acts 2:15-21, quoting Joel 2:28-32). (However, the sun did not darken; the moon did not turn to blood; and the Lord didn't appear with wrath against the nations.) Peter knew well that the Day of the Lord had not come yet: he says so in 2 Pet 3:10. Pentecost was a fulfillment in miniature: Joel saw the end point of the whole process; Peter focused on the onset. This was a guarantee that God would complete the entirety: an inauguration; the firstfruits. (Notice: There is no reason to restrict Peter's statement about the gifts of the Spirit to one particular occasion. If the Spirit was given at Pentecost, and Joel described it to include the final Day of the Lord, there is no basis to exclude the gifts today - since we are certainly still between these two points of time!) Joel also includes some timely details of the climax:
    "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land." - Joel 3:2
    "Scattered among the nations," we understand; but "parted my land"? That sure has implications for our current news headlines! (Zechariah 12:2, 3) [/font]

    Amos:
    People always ask me, where is the United States in prophecy? I usually point them to Amos (and Hosea). Amos was a sheepherder from Tekoa (6 miles south of Bethlehem) in the Southern Kingdom, but he was sent to carry the Lord's message to the Northern Kingdom (Israel). (Joel is quoted in Amos 1:2 (Joel 3:16, 18), which means his book was already in existence when Amos wrote.)

    Jeroboam II (793-753 B.C.), 4th king of the Jehu dynasty, ruled in Samaria, the capital of the Northern Kingdom, which was experiencing a boom of prosperity from his father Joash/Jehoash (2 Kings 13:25; 14:11-15). He would have a reign of 41 years (2 Kings 14:23). His military strength had prospered the Northern Kingdom: the Lebanon coastal plain had been retaken from Syria; Damascus itself was subjugated. He controlled pagan Moab to the southeast. Jeroboam II's father, Jehoash (Joash) had defeated Judah in war and Jeroboam II retained strength over the Southern Kingdom (Judah) to the south (2 Kings 14:11-14, 23-28).

    Thus, Jeroboam II's strategic position was ironclad: Syria was a buffer against Assyria to the east, Judah a buffer against Egypt to the south, and the Mediterranean to the west. They enjoyed peace and the power of conquest for over 41 years, with new markets and trade in every direction; a growing wealthy class with summer and winter homes; and, a BMW in every garage... From their point of view, "it was the best of times."

    Idolatry:
    However, Jeroboam I (931-910 BC) had instituted idolatry 150 years earlier at Dan and Bethel (1 Kings 12:26-33) (analogous to Aaron's golden calf 700 years earlier). From God's point of view, however, it was a time of idolatry, sexual immorality, violence, injustice and oppression of the poor. From God's point of view, "it was the worst of times." They did not welcome the uninvited prophet from the south. After a brief survey of the horizon of six surrounding heathen nations, and his own region of Judah, Amos then zeroes in on the Northern Kingdom with a message somewhat comparable to that of his contemporary, Hosea. He detailed God's indictment against the nation that had abandoned its heritage. Failing to heed Amos' warnings resulted in the destruction of the entire nation. Samaria, their capital, fell to their enemies the Assyrians in 722 B.C.

    The parallel to the United States is most disturbing: even during this difficult time of oil spills and economic turmoil, we still have a tremendously high standard of living. We still can enjoy our summer cookouts and days at the beach. However, we have abandoned our heritage. We regard homosexuality as simply an alternative lifestyle. We change marriage partners like fashion statements. We murder babies that are socially inconvenient. Our entertainment industry celebrates violence, immorality, sexual aberrations of every imaginable kind, and every conceivable form of evil. We have become the primary exporters of everything God abhors! From God's point of view, "it is the worst of times." Amos' indictment and summons are very timely for us today.

    Rather than pointing fingers at everybody else, though, the change needs to start at home with ourselves. Are we honest in our work practices? Do we lay down our lives for each other? Are we looking at pornography and treating our spouses with selfishness, or do we love each other as Christ has loved us? Do we treat our kids as inconveniences or as precious children of God into whom we get the honor of pouring our lives? Do we do those things we hate, that God hates? Or, do we wake each morning and say, "I'm yours, Father. Thank you so much for your great love for me. Keep me in the crosshairs of Your will today for Your joy and glory."

    Whether our circumstances look good or not, may our lives always be the "best of times" in the eyes of God. And may we remember the words of Thomas Jefferson, who said, "I tremble for my country when I recall that God is just, and that His justice will not sleep forever."


    Quasar92
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    When Paul wrote the first letter to the Thessalonian church there were no chapters or verses.
    It was one letter.
    Some of us attempt to disconnect chapter 4 from chapter 5 to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.
    However, the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 reveal that chapter 5 and chapter 4 are referring to the same event.
    The timing of the resurrection event at the end of chapter 4 is revealed in the first two verses of chapter 5.
    The word "But" in 1 Thessalonians 5:1 reveals that Paul connected the two chapters.


    1Th 4:13  But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 
    1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 
    1Th 4:15  For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 
    1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 
    1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 
    1Th 4:18  Therefore comfort one another with these words. 
    1Th 5:1  But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 
    1Th 5:2  For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. (See 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16)
    1Th 5:3  For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 
    1Th 5:4  But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 
    1Th 5:5  You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 
    1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 
    1Th 5:7  For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 
    1Th 5:8  But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 
    1Th 5:9  For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 
    1Th 5:10  who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 
    1Th 5:11  Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.


    "faulty hermeneutics" is anything that does not agree with the doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America, about the time of the Civil War...

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    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  11. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're basing your views on 1 Thess.4 and 5 on faulty hermeneutics. Chapter 4 is about the Day of Christ, His return to rapture the Church. Chapter 5 is about the Day of the Lord, when the day of His wrath will come, like a thief in the night, the Great Tribulation.

    The Day of the Lord

    1 Thess.5:1 "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape".

    4"But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing."

    In the above, verses 1 and 2 refer to the believers of 1 Thess.4. While verse 3 refers to non-believers who will go through the tribulation/Day of the Lord. Verses 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are contrasted between the believer and the non-believer. Verse 9 affirms the believer does not go through the tribulation/Day of the Lord. In verse 10, reference is to the believer, in which the word we stands for the believer, with reference to whether we are awake or asleep, having previously died in Him, as in 1 Thess.4:14 and 15, we will live with Christ.

    The term 'sleep' and 'asleep' in verses 6 and 7, mean just that, sleeping. in contrast to verse 10, which uses Paul's term asleep, for those who previously died in Christ.

    Hope that helps.


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  12. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From a preterist perspective, the "two witnesses" in "the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified", clearly references 1st century AD Jerusalem, during the Roman siege of the same, when two witnesses walked the walls of the city for days, wailing for the sins of the same, until they were struck down by Roman catapult stones.

    The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple liberated the Christians, as with Moses delivering Israelites from Egypt or Cyrus liberating the Jews from Babylon. Once the physical temple was destroyed, it was a foregone conclusion that Christianity would inexorably rise to prominence across the Roman world.

    The 7 trumpets all refer to the 70 AD destruction of the physical Temple of Jerusalem.
     
  13. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Who are the "two witnesses" in Revelation 11:3-6 ? Moses, Elijah and Enoch are the most likely candidates for Revelation's two witnesses, with most scholars believing the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah. In Matthew 17, when Jesus took Peter, James, and John to the mount and was transfigured in front of them, Moses and Elijah appeared with Him. Enoch was not there. The transfiguration can be seen as a picture of the coming of the two witnesses--Moses and Elijah.

    Malachi 4:5 predicts that Elijah will come as one of the two witnesses: "See I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and dreadful day of the Lord comes." Elijah was taken up into heaven by a whirlwind and chariot of fire (see 2 Kings 2:9-11); he did not physically die. Likewise, Moses, did not die a normal death. The Bible tells us that God preserved Moses' body (see Deuteronomy 34:5,6; Jude 9). The accounts of their deaths further corroborate the selection of Moses and Elijah as the two witnesses.

    The powers given these two witnesses in Revelation 11:3-6, are the very same ones they were each given during their lifetime. The power to shut up the sky so it didn't rain was given to Elijah in 1 Kings 17:1. Moses was given the power to turn water into blood, in Exodus 7:17.


    Quasar92
     
  14. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The identity of the two witnesses is clearly revealed in the New Testament by Paul and Christ.

    They are a symbol of the New Covenant Church.

    Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

     
    Rom 11:24  For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
     

    Rev 1:20  The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. 

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  15. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The fact of the matter is, Rev.11:15 on is a parenthetic scenario that will not take place until Jewsus second coming to the earth WITH HIS CHURCH, as recorded in Rev.19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5. It is at that time, immediately at the ending of the tribulation, Jesus will fight the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven, against the two beasts, i.e. the Antichrist, the False Prophet and the ten horns/nations. The Antichrist and the False Prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire and the armies of the ten horns/nations, destroyed, ending the tribulation, as follows:

    Rev.19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Defeat of the Beast and False Prophet

    17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

    19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."

    There are two general resurrections recorded in the Bible, the one in Rev.20:4, of the tribulation martyrs/saints, is the first one, the rest of the dead do not come to life for another 1,000 years, at the GWTJ, recorded in Rev.20:11-15.

    Reference to the interpretation of Revelation is properly left to those who have been given the gift of prophecy by the Holy Spirit. All others who have not been given the gift of prophecy, should stay out of attempting to interpret it, and let those who are qualified, to do so


    Quasar92
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    So if it does not fit the timing of the doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America, about the time of the Civil War, then is must be a "parenthetic scenario".

    That is an interesting way to claim the text does not mean what is says...

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  17. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Prove what I posted is not what the Scriptures say! The ongoing unsupported opinion will never be a source of verification of your claims!


    Quasar92
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    That will not be difficult.

    Paul said we will be changed at "the last trumpet" in 1 Corinthians chapter 15.
    The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the Bible.


    The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.
    The timing of the resurrection event at the end of 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 is revealed in the first two verses of chapter 5 on "the day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief".
    The same language is found in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16.
    This makes it an event that occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.


    The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found in the same time frame at the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:18. This judgment and bodily resurrection of "all" the dead is described by Christ in John 5:27-30.


    The Second Coming of Christ is found in multiple passages in the Book of Revelation.

    We find it in those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb at the end of chapter 6.

    At the 7th trumpet and wrath and judgment at the end of chapter 11.

    At the "harvest" of chapter 14.

    When He comes "as a thief" at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16.

    When He comes in chapter 19.

    And at the end of chapter 20, when He comes in "flaming fire", described in 2 Thessalonians chapter 1.

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  19. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Show me what John Darby has to do with my post # 135. Your use of him over and over again is a broken crutch of unsupportable personal opinion. Which you use to try fielding an argument against the Scritural teachings I use to refute them.

    Your claim the seventh trumpet is the last one is also false. When you review 1 Cor.15:51-52, you'll see that Paul is referring to the trumpet call of God, not of either angels or of man. You DO NOT know what the last trump of God will be. At the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4, or at the last one, recorded at the last resurrection, in connection with the GWTJ, recorded in Rev.20:11-15.

    FYI, you have proven nothing I have posted to be false. No matter how much or how long you write.


    Quasar92
     
  20. Quasar92

    Quasar92 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The issues pertaining to 1 Thess.4 and 5 were completely explained to you in my post #131. It's lonf past time to start reading and to stop typing.


    Quasar92
     
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