What is the CONTEXT of 1Tim2:1-4?

[kel32]

Good Sir,

i strongly recommend that you take remedial courses in English grammar and syntax before you presume to instruct from scriptures that strongly contradict your claims.

CDL,

I believe that a claim such as this should follow with proof of contradiction.

~peace always~

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Good Sir,

i strongly recommend that you take remedial courses in English grammar and syntax before you presume to instruct from scriptures that strongly contradict your claims

Ya figure so eh?

Aside from that, the rest of your "pick and choose" eisegesis is absolutely meaningless. The Plain reading of Ephesians 1 CLEARLY demonstrate that we were chosen in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world. In other words, the text clearly demonstrates that God chose US from before the foundation of the World, election is ANTICEDENT to belief.

When were you found to be in Christ, Good Sir?

Let's get that cleared up first okay? Provide proof please.

While you are at it please explain what those people in the Bible were doing being converted into Christ.

Okay?

Jesus My Wisdom

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

CDL,

I believe that a claim such as this should follow with proof of contradiction.

~peace always~

The passage quoted was Ephesians 1:4-6. The contradiction between what the passage says and what the gentleman claimed it says is self evident and needs no further explanation.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Ya figure so eh?

Yes, i "figure", and the passsage demonstrates.

When were you found to be in Christ, Good Sir?

Relevance to the present discussion on Ephesians 1:4-6?

Let's get that cleared up first okay? Provide proof please.

Proof of what? You need to make your anticedent/ relative pronoun constructions a little less vague.

While you are at it please explain what those people in the Bible were doing being converted into Christ.

Define the term "into Christ" please.

 

[kel32]

The passage quoted was Ephesians 1:4-6. The contradiction between what the passage says and what the gentleman claimed it says is self evident and needs no further explanation.

self-evident to whom?

~peace~

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Yes, i "figure", and the passsage demonstrates.

You are confusing your misguided interpretation of the passage with the passage itself.

Relevance to the present discussion on Ephesians 1:4-6?

Ephesians 1:5 says "chosen in him before the foundation of the world." It is quite relevant as you can see.

Proof of what? You need to make your anticedent/ relative pronoun constructions a little less vague.

LOL. I have no problem with the grammar as you will discover.

Define the term "into Christ" please.

A common New Testament term for motion into the body of Christ. One is "in Christ" becasue one has been converted INTO Christ.

Were you "in Christ" before you were born again?

Jesus My Wisdom

 

[drstevej]

self-evident to whom?

~peace~

To me, for one.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

self-evident to whom?

~peace~

Self evident to anyone who reads the passage. If you have any disagreements based on the passage itself, in context, get back to me and we'll discuss them.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

To me, for one.

Voting on truth now?

Looks like Christianity is out then.

JMW

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Self evident to anyone who reads the passage. If you have any disagreements based on the passage itself, in context, get back to me and we'll discuss them.

When were you found to be in Christ?

Simple question.

JMW

 

[drstevej]

Voting on truth now?

Looks like Christianity is out then.

JMW

Wisdom will die with you, eh?

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Wisdom will die with you, eh?

Fraid not. I died with him.

"But to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. " (1 Cor 1:24).

So do you know what this wisdom of God is?

Can we get back to the subject matter now?

JMW

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

You are confusing your misguided interpretation of the passage with the passage itself.

Begs the question. You presume that the "interpretation" is misguided in order to assert confusion on my part. Not quite cricket. Can you even state what my "interpretation" entails? Please limit discussion to Ephesians 1.

Ephesians 1:5 says "chosen in him before the foundation of the world." It is quite relevant as you can see.

Which of course, does not disprove the assertion made, based on the above quoted text, that choosing proorivsa" (proorisas), aorist participle of proorivzw (proorizoo, predestine, choose) sets a definite order of events.

LOL. I have no problem with the grammar as you will discover.

We'll just have to see, won't we? ~mh; kauch/, ajdelfev.~

A common New Testament term for motion into the body of Christ. One is "in Christ" becasue one has been converted INTO Christ.

Define in your own words what "converted INTO Christ" entails.

Were you "in Christ" before you were born again?

Jesus My Wisdom

Let's see now...did Levi actually pay tithes to Melchizadek through his father Abraham? Is Adam's sin my actual sin? Answer me those.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Begs the question. You presume that the "interpretation" is misguided in order to assert confusion on my part. Not quite cricket. Can you even state what my "interpretation" entails? Please limit discussion to Ephesians 1.

Sure you think God specifically chose you to become a Christian before the foundation of the world. As for the "in him" part that is unpredictable among Calvinists. Perhaps you might say you were in "the mind of God" or something along those lines.

Which of course, does not disprove the assertion made, based on the above quoted text, that choosing proorivsa" (proorisas), aorist participle of proorivzw (proorizoo, predestine, choose) sets a definite order of events.

Really? Does 1 Corinthians 6:11 set a definite order of events too?

I'll just bet it doesn't in your mind.

Yes God did his choosing BEFORE the creation of the world.

Does that help?

We'll just have to see, won't we? ~mh; kauch'tai, ajdelfev.~

oh yes we will

Define in your own words what "converted INTO Christ" entails.

Sure it means that you were existing in your old humanity and were transferred into the new humanity. How that occurs is irrelevant to the question at hand.

Let's see now...did Levi actually pay tithes to Melchizadek through his father Abraham?

Yes. We ARE our ancestors, flesh of their flesh.

Is Adam's sin my actual sin? Answer me those.

Yes. We ARE our ancestors flesh of their flesh.

Now let's move on. Were you in Christ before you were born again?

JMW

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Sure you think God specifically chose you to become a Christian before the foundation of the world. As for the "in him" part that is unpredictable among Calvinists. Perhaps you might say you were in "the mind of God" or something along those lines.

No, not quite. The passage explicitly states that the believers that Paul addresses were chosen before the foundation of the world. As for your second answer, perhaps, perhaps not. It differs among Christians, both Calvinist/Reformed, and Non-Calvinist.

Really? Does 1 Corinthians 6:11 set a definite order of events too?

Not a valid example in terms of Grammar alone. The three Aorist verbs are indicative mood, compared to the imperfect indicative intransitive verb h\te The example in Ephesians 1:4 consists of a Aorist participle. Contextually speaking, yes in both cases i'd have to say there is a distinct temporal order. Syntax might also provide a basis for a temporal order in I Corinthians 6:11 as well. The different aktionsart of the verbs is interesting.

I'll just bet it doesn't in your mind.

You should not gamble.

Yes God did his choosing BEFORE the creation of the world.

Why, thank you. i'm happy that we finally got that one out of the way. Now i'm curious as to what you think that being Chosen by God entails. If you're going where i think you're going with this, your answer should provide some interesting discussion. i suspect that we've probably read some of the same authors.

Sure it means that you were existing in your old humanity and were transferred into the new humanity. How that occurs is irrelevant to the question at hand.

Actually it is quite relevant. There is great potential for mischief with a 'mechanism' that has been left undefined. It can be the difference between the Eastern Orthodox view of "deification" and the heresy of panentheism, among other issues.

Yes. We ARE our ancestors, flesh of their flesh.
....(combined by Calvinist Dark Lord for brevity)...
Yes. We ARE our ancestors flesh of their flesh.

Really? It would seem that such matters are Volitional actions.

Now let's move on. Were you in Christ before you were born again?

Let's put it this way: Would it have been possible that i or anyone else, if Chosen by God before the foundation of the World, would have been capable of doing OTHER THAN what God Chose? i'd really like to hear your answer to that one.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Not a valid example in terms of Grammar alone. The three Aorist verbs are indicative mood, compared to the imperfect indicative intransitive verb h\te The example in Ephesians 1:4 consists of a Aorist participle. Contextually speaking, yes in both cases i'd have to say there is a distinct temporal order. Syntax might also provide a basis for a temporal order in I Corinthians 6:11 as well. The different aktionsart of the verbs is interesting.

Interesting problem that creates for you.

Why, thank you. i'm happy that we finally got that one out of the way. Now i'm curious as to what you think that being Chosen by God entails. If you're going where i think you're going with this, your answer should provide some interesting discussion. i suspect that we've probably read some of the same authors.

I doubt it. It has nothing to do with "authors." One only has to read with common sense.

Actually it is quite relevant. There is great potential for mischief with a 'mechanism' that has been left undefined. It can be the difference between the Eastern Orthodox view of "deification" and the heresy of panentheism, among other issues.

Yeah whatever. You go ahead and define it then and we will see where we are. Make a starting point.

Really? It would seem that such matters are Volitional actions.

They sure are.

Let's put it this way: Would it have been possible that i or anyone else, if Chosen by God before the foundation of the World, would have been capable of doing OTHER THAN what God Chose? i'd really like to hear your answer to that one.

You sure don't want to answer than question do you? I keep asking and asking but you avoid it like a plague. Seems you are afraid to answer. And such a simple question!

God did His choosing before the foundation of the world
God did not choose you before the foundation of the world

Now, were you "in Christ" before you were born again?

Jesus My Wisdom

 

[CCWoody]

I see nobody has bothered to try and explain the context of this verse. Yes, one poster did mention something about Paul encouraging Timothy to pray for "high officials." But, why would Paul need to do this in the first place, especially if it was self evident that the Lord desires the salvation of all men everywhere without any exception?

The answer is because of a particular belief of the day, which was common among the people where Timothy was raised. And, as I've said, verse 5 is the key to unlocking this mystery.

So, if anyone would actually care to attempt to explain why Paul would need to encourage Timothy do pray for all manner of men, THEN, and only then, might we actually make some sense out of what Paul is teaching in these verses. Until then, well, this is nothing more than watching the non-Calvinists here fumble around in the dark with nary a clue about the real meaning of this passage.

I'll be back later when I have some more time and answer a few of the individual posts....

 

[Ben johnson]

Paul encouraging Timothy to pray for "high officials." But, why would Paul need to do this in the first place, especially if it was self evident that the Lord desires the salvation of all men everywhere without any exception?

Because "prayer moves God", because "the effective prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much" (Jms5:16). Because it was "in order that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity." (1Tim2:2) In other words, that leaders would, through the power of prayer, be led to God and godliness in their authority...

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Interesting problem that creates for you.

Only in your imagination.

I doubt it. It has nothing to do with "authors." One only has to read with common sense.

And if somebody else reaches a conclusion different from your conclusion based on their common sense reading of the passage you are then on the horns of a dilemma. Perhaps you should include a course in basic hermeneutics in your studies. If you did, you'd know how typically novice your statement appears.

Yeah whatever. You go ahead and define it then and we will see where we are. Make a starting point.

i don't think so. CC Woody started the thread, and i notice that you're awful shy about attempting to answer HIS questions, prefering to toy with other posters, much like i'm toying with you at present.

They sure are.

Which undermines your ultimate position if you extend the idea to it's conclusion.

You sure don't want to answer than question do you? I keep asking and asking but you avoid it like a plague. Seems you are afraid to answer. And such a simple question!

No, i like to play with my prey before finishing it off.

God did His choosing before the foundation of the world
God did not choose you before the foundation of the world

Oh Joy! That long-ago-refuted nonsense. You don't think that we've heard that one a few times? Well, this will no doubt get amusing.

Now, were you "in Christ" before you were born again?

Jesus My Wisdom

You already have enough information to form my answer. All you need do is read the exchange with common sense.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

By definition, Election is UNTO salvation. Not BECAUSE of salvation.

That would be YOUR definition, not the Biblical definition.

In the Bible we are elect when we are in union with the elect one of God

according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved. (Eph 1:4-6)

You've got a lot to learn. Go learn it before you make statements like that.

NO mistakes here. Are you willing to listen yet? When you are, I will show you how this works.

Here is your error. You think this passage is saying that before the foundation of the world God predestined you to be a Christian. So when you read the words, "predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself"
as you quoted you think it is saying just that. However, you are very wrong and this is proven over andn over in the context of this chapter.

Here is what Paul is really saying here:

"predestined you Christians to the sonship of resurrection glory"

Same idea as Romans 8:23.

"And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. "

IN fact, you might want to recheck your chronological points of reference at Romans 8:29-30 now too which happens to be in the same context or Romans 8:23. Wonder why it mentions glory in verse 30? You ain't glorified yet nobodysfool.


That is when we will be holy and blameless before him. Same idea at later in the same letter at Ephesians 5:27.

"He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. "

which is the same idea also as that expressed in the sister letter to Ephesians:

He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast (Col 1:23).

So you see, you have made a big mistake. He is not referring to predestining anyone to become a Christians but is referring to Christians being predestined to resurrection glory. Your timeframe and chronological points of reference are completely out of whack. In other words, Paul is saying the body of Christ will receive the inheritance of sonship when Jesus comes. The bride of Christ has always been predestined to resurrection glory. To be "in him" means to be in the body of Christ.

Now, when were you first in the body of Christ?

JMW