What is the CONTEXT of 1Tim2:1-4?

[CCWoody]

So, is there a single non-Calvinist taker who wants to directly address... the historical context of [1Timothy 2:1-4]?

Perhaps on this thread someone might want to answer my question about the historical context of 1 Ti 2:1-4????

Ahhh! I found my thread. I'll be back later to see if anyone has attempted to answer this very important question about this verse, but let me give a little more information:

A great many people complain that we Calvinists dare to point out that the proper translation/ interpretation of the Greek pas in verse 4 is all manner of men without any distinction, not without any exception. We are opposed by those who wish to impose their own presumptions onto the Scriptures.

Yet, the very context of this verse demonstrates that we Calvinists are right. Why do I say that.... Well, if you knew the context of the verse and the reason why Paul even addresses it in the first place, you would know.

So, here is my challenge: If you think that your interpretation of this verse is correct, you shouldn't have any problems reconciling that with the context of the verse. Simply tell me the context and then reconcile that with your interpretation.
​

Simple!!!

Hint: Verse 5 contains the key to unlocking the mystery. The very first word of the verse "For" lets you know that this is a continuation of an idea from previous verses.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, CC

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Peace to u,

BBAS

 

[christian-only]

(1 Tim 2:4) "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Pet 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise (of returning), as some count slackness, but is longsuffering (patient) toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Is Jesus being slack in not returning right now? No. He's giving men time to repent because he does not want any to perish. Nevertheless many will perish, for although God desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth not all men desire to do the same.

(BTW, I'm not a Calvinist.)

 

[nobdysfool]

(1 Tim 2:4) "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." (2 Pet 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise (of returning), as some count slackness, but is longsuffering (patient) toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Is Jesus being slack in not returning right now? No. He's giving men time to repent because he does not want any to perish. Nevertheless many will perish, for although God desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth not all men desire to do the same.

(BTW, I'm not a Calvinist.)

2Peter 3:9 is in the midst of a teaching on the end-times. Not the same context as 1 Tim 2:4, which is concerned with the here and now.

Besides, if your read 2 Peter 3, you will find that Peter is addressing Christians, and not mankind in general. The patience shown by the Lord in verse 9 is directed toward the Elect. To say that the Lord is giving men time to repent because He doesn't want any to perish is to say that the Lord will never come back, because there will always be men who need to repent. As long as men and women procreate, there will be more who need to repent.

However, if you understand rightly that Peter is speaking of the Elect here (as evidenced by who he is directing the letter to: Us-ward, or toward us Christians, those who are of the Elect), then it is understood that when the full number of the Elect have come to repentance and have been born again, then the Lord can and will return to execute Judgment on the Earth.

Like it or not, there is a finite number of people who will be saved. Saved people are the Elect of God, chosen before the foundation of the world. God has never purposed to save every last man woman and child who has ever lived, or will live, or is living now. All throughout the bible, God has chosen a remnant, a portion, and not the whole. He told Elijah that He had reserved a number who had not bowed the knee to Baal. Out of all the number of humans on the Earth, he chose Israel, one of the smallest groups of men, and they came from ONE MAN (Abraham). Out of all the humans on Earth before the Flood, God chose ONE MAN (Noah), and saved him and his family from the destruction of the entire human race.

The pattern and precedent is clear. God is not man that He should lie, nor the son of man that He should repent. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. As He has done, so shall He do. As He has said, so shall it come to pass.

 

[ksen]

Is Jesus being slack in not returning right now? No. He's giving men time to repent because he does not want any to perish. Nevertheless many will perish, for although God desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth not all men desire to do the same.

Great! So....just what is it that causes a man to desire to "come to the knowledge of truth?"

I hope God is a little more successful in keeping His saints secure, a thing He desires, than He is in bringing all men to a knowledge of Him, a thing you say He desires but does not get.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

Perhaps on this thread someone might want to answer my question about the historical context of 1 Ti 2:1-4????

Ahhh! I found my thread. I'll be back later to see if anyone has attempted to answer this very important question about this verse, but let me give a little more information:

A great many people complain that we Calvinists dare to point out that the proper translation/ interpretation of the Greek pas in verse 4 is all manner of men without any distinction, not without any exception. We are opposed by those who wish to impose their own presumptions onto the Scriptures.

Yet, the very context of this verse demonstrates that we Calvinists are right. Why do I say that.... Well, if you knew the context of the verse and the reason why Paul even addresses it in the first place, you would know.

So, here is my challenge: If you think that your interpretation of this verse is correct, you shouldn't have any problems reconciling that with the context of the verse. Simply tell me the context and then reconcile that with your interpretation.
​

Simple!!!

Hint: Verse 5 contains the key to unlocking the mystery. The very first word of the verse "For" lets you know that this is a continuation of an idea from previous verses.

Sure, I would be glad to do just that.

Paul wants us to pray for people in high positions. Why? Because God desires all men to be saved, not just certain classes of men. Jesus is the mediator of all humanity and gave himself as a ransom for all.

JMW

 

[Ben johnson]

The patience shown by the Lord in verse 9 is directed toward the Elect.

I've never understood that interpretation. God WAITS, so that the ELECT will be saved; won't they be saved anyway? Why do you suppose He WAITS rather than just save them NOW? Unless you assume that "some-elect aren't BORN yet"; but that begs the question, "why not? Isn't it better if they be born NOW, then all the sorrow and pain of the world can END, PROMPTLY? I don't beleive God WANTS pain and suffering to continue...


My interpretation (but you all knew this), is that "God does not BOULEMAI-DECREE any to perish, but CHOREO-MAKES-ROOM for all to repent".

And the context of 1Tim2 seems to be saying that "God wants all LEADERS to BE saved" --- do you all think He only allows ELECT, to BECOME leaders?

again...

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

2Peter 3:9 is in the midst of a teaching on the end-times. Not the same context as 1 Tim 2:4, which is concerned with the here and now.

Besides, if your read 2 Peter 3, you will find that Peter is addressing Christians, and not mankind in general. The patience shown by the Lord in verse 9 is directed toward the Elect. To say that the Lord is giving men time to repent because He doesn't want any to perish is to say that the Lord will never come back, because there will always be men who need to repent. As long as men and women procreate, there will be more who need to repent. .

No it isn't. It took a long time for the gospel to be preached throughout the world. We still aren't quite there yet.

And no one is elect before they are born again. No, Eph 1:4 doesn't indicate that either.

Jesus My Wisdom

 

[nobdysfool]

I've never understood that interpretation. God WAITS, so that the ELECT will be saved; won't they be saved anyway? Why do you suppose He WAITS rather than just save them NOW? Unless you assume that "some-elect aren't BORN yet"; but that begs the question, "why not? Isn't it better if they be born NOW, then all the sorrow and pain of the world can END, PROMPTLY? I don't beleive God WANTS pain and suffering to continue...

Do you think that the Elect are saved automatically? That smacks of a Deist view of things, i.e. God sets things into motion, like winding up a clock, and then just sits back and let's things happen. I know you don't believe that, Ben. Somebody once said that God created time so that everything wouldn't happen all at once. I'm not saying that as an answer, just trying to get you to think. Be careful that you don't project your desires and view of things onto God, and call them His desires.

We know that God has said every man has an appointed time to die, so wouldn't it be reasonable to believe that they also have an appointed time to be born, and to be saved (speaking of the Elect here)? We are involved in going through the process, while God has already determined and decreed exactly how, when, and where things will happen, including the time of Christ's return. (Ecclesiastes 3:1-8)

Peter is speaking to the Elect from our perspective, saying that until all of those that God has chosen (the Elect) are born, and in the appointed time for them, saved, we can and should see God's seeming delay of the consummation of all things as patience and long-suffering toward us. While we long to see the Return of Christ, some whom God has chosen have not yet, in time, come the the appointed hour of their salvation. Until they have all, in time, actually been saved, God holds back the Return of Christ, and the consummation of all things, for the Love He has for His Elect.

My interpretation (but you all knew this), is that "God does not BOULEMAI-DECREE any to perish, but CHOREO-MAKES-ROOM for all to repent".

Ah, but if you're taking that view from this passage of scripture, the context in which it is written is just as important as the meaning of the Greek words themselves. In that context, God does not decree any of the Elect to perish, but makes room (waits for their appointed time) for all of them to repent. That is the point that Peter is making here. He is referring to the Elect.

And the context of 1Tim2 seems to be saying that "God wants all LEADERS to BE saved" --- do you all think He only allows ELECT, to BECOME leaders? again...

Wouldn't it be great if all LEADERS (Heads of State, all in temporal authority) WERE saved??? Paul encourages us to pray that God would order their actions so that we may live a quiet and peaceable life. I don't believe that God allows only the elect to become leaders, that's obviously not true. By no stretch of the imagination could you say that Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Khomeini, etc,. were Elect. They all had a part to play in God's Plan, but Election is unto salvation.

It is axiomatic that those in authority affect the lives of others by their actions and decisions, and Paul's charge to Timothy is pray that their actions will be such that God's Word may be given opportunity to be spread, and that God's People be allowed to live their lives in peace. We know that no one is placed in authority except by God's appointment (Rom 13:1, Col 1:16)(this fact sends the Democrats into orbit vis-a-vis GWB), and we know that God controls their actions (Prov 21:1).

As I said, the context of 2 Pet 3 and 1 Tim 2 are different, not the same, and you cannot combine them to be the same, without violating good Biblical interpretation.

 

[nobdysfool]

And no one is elect before they are born again. No, Eph 1:4 doesn't indicate that either.

By definition, Election is UNTO salvation. Not BECAUSE of salvation.

according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved. (Eph 1:4-6)

You've got a lot to learn. Go learn it before you make statements like that.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

By definition, Election is UNTO salvation. Not BECAUSE of salvation.

Ummm... no.

according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He has made us accepted in the One having been loved. (Eph 1:4-6)

"We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." (Rom 8:23).

You've got a lot to learn. Go learn it before you make statements like that.

Start with the words "in Him" at Ephesians 1:4. Why are those words there? Would it make any difference if those words were not there? Then you will begin to learn.

Jesus My Wisdom

 

[nobdysfool]

Ummm... no.

"We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." (Rom 8:23).

Election occurred before the foundation of the world. To be Elect is to be chosen. That choosing, by God, happened before the world was. Because the Elect are chosen, they are predestined UNTO adoption as sons, in Christ. Our salvation has past, present, and future components. Adoption refers to the redemtption of our bodies, which is yet future. Our souls have already been redeemed, but the redemption of our bodies is at the time of Christ's return.

Start with the words "in Him" at Ephesians 1:4. Why are those words there? Would it make any difference if those words were not there? Then you will begin to learn.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2Co 5:17)

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (Joh 6:37)

By definition if one is a Christian, he is IN CHRIST. IN HIM.

God chooses the elect IN CHRIST, because that's where the Elect reside after salvation.

Their Election is prior to their salvation, and is what brings them to salvation.

What you are wrongly trying to say is that God chooses those who choose Him. That would necessarily mean that God shows partiality, and chooses people based on their actions, and not the good pleasure of His own Will. That is scripturally untrue, and you know it.

As I said before, you've got a lot to learn. Go learn it before you make a fool of yourself.
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[Jesus My Wisdom]

Election occurred before the foundation of the world.

Yes it did.

To be Elect is to be chosen.

Yes it is.

That choosing, by God, happened before the world was.

Yes it did.

Because the Elect are chosen,

Here is where you go wrong. God did not elect any of us before the creation of the world to become Christians. Find out why it says "in him."

they are predestined UNTO adoption as sons, in Christ.

In this passage, the elect are those who are in the Elect One, Jesus Christ and as such are predestined to resurrected glory at the end of the age, that is, the sonship of resurrection glory.

Our salvation has past, present, and future components. Adoption refers to the redemtption of our bodies, which is yet future. Our souls have already been redeemed, but the redemption of our bodies is at the time of Christ's return.

Whatever. In this passage, the sonship is a reference to what is ahead for Christians.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2Co 5:17)

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (Joh 6:37)

By definition if one is a Christian, he is IN CHRIST. IN HIM.

By definition we become sons of God by virtue of our union with the Son of God.
In the same way, we become chosen by virtue of our union with God's Chosen One.

God chooses the elect IN CHRIST, because that's where the Elect reside after salvation.

Sorry, but Ephesians 1:4 does not say, "He chose us to be in him." Were you in Christ before creation?

Their Election is prior to their salvation, and is what brings them to salvation.

No, God's calling through the gospel is what brings people to be saved.

What you are wrongly trying to say is that God chooses those who choose Him.

God has already chosen to offer salvation to all through his Son, the Chosen One, the Elect One of God.

That would necessarily mean that God shows partiality, and chooses people based on their actions, and not the good pleasure of His own Will. That is scripturally untrue, and you know it.

No, it would mean that some people choose to receive God's gift of grace and others do not.

As I said before, you've got a lot to learn. Go learn it before you make a fool of yourself.
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Uh huh. We will see about that won't we?


Jesus My Wisdom

 

[Mr.Cheese]

I find it interesting that Nero was emperor when this was written.
Verse 2 qualifies the "all" in verse 1. Verse 4 reiterates the universality of God's grace. God even wants such as Nero to be saved.
Verse 4 "pas" is used without an article, in the plural, and with a noun: pantes anthropoi, meaning "all people/men, everyone."

Of all the passages of scripture I can't see how on earth you can take a Calvinist interpretation on these four verses.
Pray for NERO?!
Besides setting Rome on fire and blaming it on the Christians, Nero executed both Peter and Paul. I don't see Nero among the "elect."
But the letter commands people pray for Nero because God desires all men to be saved, throughy Jesus Christ, who, once again in verse six, gave himself as a ransom for all.

 

[RVincent]

Good Mr. Cheese.

Furthermore, if some people insist on taking the strict context of First and Second Peter into consideration as far as who it is addressing, then we would have to say that it is not addressing all Christians, but only those of the diaspora - the scattered of the House of Israel. (1 Pet:1:1. 2 Pet. 3:1).

(I know that this thread is about Timothy, but someone mentioned 2 Pet 3 earlier.)

That might leave out a lot of Calvinists!

Then there's Ezek. 18:

(Ezek 18:4) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

(Ezek 18:21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
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And then there is God's pardon of the Ninevites in the book of Jonah, no Christians in that group. Or Calvinists either!

 

[Ben johnson]

Do you think that the Elect are saved automatically?

Well, (per Calvinism) YES! Doesn't Calvinism assert that "God unilaterally regenerates them, before they repent and before they ask"? Isn't the timing (per Calvinism) all God's plan?

Good posts, Cheese & RVincent!

 

[nobdysfool]

By definition we become sons of God by virtue of our union with the Son of God. In the same way, we become chosen by virtue of our union with God's Chosen One.

According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His Will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Eph 1:4-6)

You are saying that God chooses us based on our union with Christ. Who is doing the choosing here? If it is we ourselves, then God shows partiality toward us. However, if He chooses us based on His own Will (as the verses plainly state), then we are fulfilling what He has determined beforehand to happen, by His own Will.

You are trying to build a case for the Elect referring only to Jesus. Scripture does not bear that out. 1 Peter 1:2 is one proof of that. Peter addresses himself to the "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to YOU (the elect) and peace be multiplied." Sanctification and obedience and the sprinkling of the Blood refer to Elect believers, not to Jesus, unless you want to argue that Jesus sprinkles His own Blood on Himself.

Therefore, as elect ones of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassions, kindness, humility, meekness, long-suffering, bearing with one another and forgiving yourselves, if anyone has a complaint against any; even as Christ forgave you, so also you should forgive. (Col 3:12-13)

[size=+0]Paul is not referring to Christ here, but to Christians. The Elect ones. [/size]
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Sorry, but Ephesians 1:4 does not say, "He chose us to be in him." Were you in Christ before creation?

"According as He has chosen us IN HIM"....doesn't seem to support your contention, JMW...it plainly states just that. As far as God is concerned, from His viewpoint, yes, I was in Christ before creation. "He has chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world". God's Purpose and Plan was fully formed and complete in the mind of God before he created anything.

He calls those things that be not, as though they are. And in so doing, THEY ARE.

God is not subject to the limitations of time and sequence of events, as we are. He controls those things, he owns them. They are His and unfold at His command and according to His will.

No, God's calling through the gospel is what brings people to be saved.

The gospel is the means by which people believe on Jesus, but Election assures that they will be brought to hear the gospel. Election doesn't save, it brings the person to the point of being saved, but it is faith in Christ, imparted through the hearing of the word, through the agency of the Grace of God in the person's heart, that saves.

God has already chosen to offer salvation to all through his Son, the Chosen One, the Elect One of God.

What about those who die never having heard the Gospel? If God desired all to be saved, all WOULD be saved. They obviously are not. You want to lay the blame for that at their feet, as though they could truly choose. But that necessitates a belief in an unfettered free will on man's part. How about explaining to us how a man who is in bondage to sin, a slave to sin, a hater of God, has a free will?


The Elect are Christians, chosen by God In Christ, before the foundation of the world. Get used to it. It's Gospel. It's the Truth.





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[nobdysfool]

Well, (per Calvinism) YES! Doesn't Calvinism assert that "God unilaterally regenerates them, before they repent and before they ask"? Isn't the timing (per Calvinism) all God's plan?

Good posts, Cheese & RVincent!

Once again, Ben, you MISREPRESENT Calvinism. Will you ever learn? Your version of Calvinism is NOT Calvinism. This has gone on long enough. Either learn it correctly, or quit embarrassing yourself by making untrue statements about something which you demonstrably don't understand.

Smilies don't make up for intentional misrepresentation.

 

[Jesus My Wisdom]

[/font]
According as He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His Will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Eph 1:4-6)

You are saying that God chooses us based on our union with Christ.

No, I am saying God chose His only Son. When we become members of his body we therefore become chosen being in him who is the Elect One. It is the same way we become sons of God.

Who is doing the choosing here?

God.

If it is we ourselves, then God shows partiality toward us. However, if He chooses us based on His own Will (as the verses plainly state), then we are fulfilling what He has determined beforehand to happen, by His own Will.

God shows partiality to one person, his Son Jesus Christ.

You are trying to build a case for the Elect referring only to Jesus.

Um no. And I don't have to "build" anything. I simply have to discover the truth which I have done.

We are sons of God by virtue of being members of the body of Christ, the Son of God. We are elect in the same way. There are now many sons of God and many elect, all those in the son of God, the Chosen One.

Scripture does not bear that out. 1 Peter 1:2 is one proof of that. Peter addresses himself to the "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to YOU (the elect) and peace be multiplied." Sanctification and obedience and the sprinkling of the Blood refer to Elect believers, not to Jesus, unless you want to argue that Jesus sprinkles His own Blood on Himself.

Yes, they are elect because they have been sprinkled by the blood of the Chosen One and are in the Chosen One, Jesus. See verse 3, they have been born again.

The precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake. (1:19-20).

Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in Chosen in the sight of God and precious (2:3).

But you are a CHOSEN race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy. (2:9-10).

Therefore, as elect ones of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassions, kindness, humility, meekness, long-suffering, bearing with one another and forgiving yourselves, if anyone has a complaint against any; even as Christ forgave you, so also you should forgive. (Col 3:12-13)

[size=+0]Paul is not referring to Christ here, but to Christians. The Elect ones. [/size]

Elect because they are "in him" the Elect One of God.
Sons of God because they are "in him" the Son of God.

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"According as He has chosen us IN HIM"....doesn't seem to support your contention, JMW...it plainly states just that. As far as God is concerned, from His viewpoint, yes, I was in Christ before creation.

No you weren't. To be "in Christ" means to be in the body of Christ, in body of the risen Christ. You were not in him until here:

"You also hearing the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and having believed in him, were sealed in him with the promised Holy Spirit" (1:13).

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. "

"But I, brethren, could not address you as spiritual men, but as men of the flesh, as babes in Christ"

Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation."

So when were you a new creation?

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. "

"He has chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world". God's Purpose and Plan was fully formed and complete in the mind of God before he created anything.

You are just imagining up what you want God to have been thinking before he created the world. God chose his Son before creation and because we have become members of the body of His Son we become part of that which was chosen before creation.

He calls those things that be not, as though they are. And in so doing, THEY ARE.


God is not subject to the limitations of time and sequence of events, as we are. He controls those things, he owns them. They are His and unfold at His command and according to His will.

Uh huh, but we are subject to them. You are just imagining things up again for your own convenience.

The gospel is the means by which people believe on Jesus, but Election assures that they will be brought to hear the gospel. Election doesn't save, it brings the person to the point of being saved, but it is faith in Christ, imparted through the hearing of the word, through the agency of the Grace of God in the person's heart, that saves.

Election simply means that we enjoy the present favor of God being chosen for his divine work, just as Israel was God's chosen to carry out the task of bringing the messiah to us through the Law.

What about those who die never having heard the Gospel?

To whom much is given, much is required. To whom little is given, little is required.

If God desired all to be saved, all WOULD be saved. They obviously are not. You want to lay the blame for that at their feet, as though they could truly choose.

They can. God does not want unwilling lovers.

But that necessitates a belief in an unfettered free will on man's part. How about explaining to us how a man who is in bondage to sin, a slave to sin, a hater of God, has a free will?

Sure that is easy. We are souls of flesh by nature. Our flesh can do nothing good. But we souls can do good because we are made alive by spirit and God is the father of all spirits and good originates with God in this way. However, we can take no responsibility or reward for that good because it did not originate in us who are flesh. Being flesh, we were in bondage to sin because we are flesh by nature. Jesus changed all that. Those souls who have died with Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. It is not a matter of a soul's will but the fact that we souls were flesh by nature. Yet, we souls could choose to do good long before we became Christians by following the spirit within. Paul says so.

The Elect are Christians, chosen by God In Christ, before the foundation of the world. Get used to it. It's Gospel. It's the Truth.

There were no Christians before Pentecost much less before the foundation of the world.

You were not in him at the creation of the world. Get used to it.

Jesus My Wisdom

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

No, I am saying God chose His only Son. When we become members of his body we therefore become chosen being in him who is the Elect One. It is the same way we become sons of God.

Good Sir,

i strongly recommend that you take remedial courses in English grammar and syntax before you presume to instruct from scriptures that strongly contradict your claims.

Aside from that, the rest of your "pick and choose" eisegesis is absolutely meaningless. The Plain reading of Ephesians 1 CLEARLY demonstrate that we were chosen in Christ BEFORE the foundation of the world. In other words, the text clearly demonstrates that God chose US from before the foundation of the World, election is ANTICEDENT to belief.