What is the Church's relationship to Israel?

[HumbleServant94]

I am curious what the general results of this poll might be. Supersessionism/Replacement Theology is an abomination to Messianic Jews, and we try to educate the Christian churches regarding this. It is this doctrine which fostered the appearance and growth of anti-Semitism in the Christian world, leading directly to the suffering and deaths of COUNTLESS Jews. It is, for us, not an abstract theological issue, but the painful reality of how bad doctrine results in evil.

Comments?

Shalom

The suppression/replacement theology is an outright lie from the devil. It lead the way for God's chosen people to be butchered throughout history.
It is an anti-semitic lie, and I hope it will be disregarded completely in the future.

 

[bugkiller]

I agree with a ton of what you said there. but remember that yes we were grafted into the olive tree.the olive tree is singular and the passage says that perhaps jews will be "grafted back in"no person I dont care what their ethnicity if they reject Christ gets a free pass.israel is the Church of christ

I think the scripture says we partake of the Root and share the blessings of the tree. We draw our life support from Jesus Christ not Israel. Jesus is not Israel. I further question because in Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek (pagan gentile). If there is no Jew in Christ,how can there be an Israel in Jesus Christ?

bugkiller

 

[Zeena]

I am curious what the general results of this poll might be. Supersessionism/Replacement Theology is an abomination to Messianic Jews, and we try to educate the Christian churches regarding this. It is this doctrine which fostered the appearance and growth of anti-Semitism in the Christian world, leading directly to the suffering and deaths of COUNTLESS Jews. It is, for us, not an abstract theological issue, but the painful reality of how bad doctrine results in evil.

Comments?

Shalom

I voted 'other' and will explain;

We are BOTH grafted into Christ.
He is the vine, we are the branches.
One stick in His hand.

 

[Hairy Tic]

I am curious what the general results of this poll might be. Supersessionism/Replacement Theology is an abomination to Messianic Jews, and we try to educate the Christian churches regarding this. It is this doctrine which fostered the appearance and growth of anti-Semitism in the Christian world, leading directly to the suffering and deaths of COUNTLESS Jews. It is, for us, not an abstract theological issue, but the painful reality of how bad doctrine results in evil.

Comments?

Shalom

## Israel is a secular state - the Church is the New Israel, as it includes all Israel "according to the promise": a (very small) part of which is also (part of) Israel "according to the flesh".

Whether Messianics like that or not could not matter less - the Jews were not exactly keen to accept a crucified Messiah, but that is the only Messiah on offer. The sufferings of the Jewish people over many centuries at the hands of Christians is a fact, and a scandalous and shameful one; but it cannot be allowed to shame Christians into distorting the Christian Faith in order to placate their critics, because that Faith is not their property. The identity of the Church is not exactly "an abstract theological issue" for its members.

There is no logical or necessary or inevitable connection between the Church's traditional understanding of itself as being the New Israel, and Judaeophobia. And there is certainly no need to treat Jews as uniquely victims - they themselves are by no means innocent of bloodshed.

As for "bad doctrine" - what is "Messianic Judaism" ?

 

[Constantine_Orthodox]

## Israel is a secular state - the Church is the New Israel, as it includes all Israel "according to the promise": a (very small) part of which is also (part of) Israel "according to the flesh".

Whether Messianics like that or not could not matter less - the Jews were not exactly keen to accept a crucified Messiah, but that is the only Messiah on offer. The sufferings of the Jewish people over many centuries at the hands of Christians is a fact, and a scandalous and shameful one; but it cannot be allowed to shame Christians into distorting the Christian Faith in order to placate their critics, because that Faith is not their property. The identity of the Church is not exactly "an abstract theological issue" for its members.

There is no logical or necessary or inevitable connection between the Church's traditional understanding of itself as being the New Israel, and Judaeophobia. And there is certainly no need to treat Jews as uniquely victims - they themselves are by no means innocent of bloodshed.

As for "bad doctrine" - what is "Messianic Judaism" ?

Well said!!!

 

[student4YHWH]

The "Israel" of God, Romans 9:6

 

[darjohns]

Jesus is the true Israel. This can be seen clearly in Galatians 3:16 and other passages like Matthew 2:15 which quotes Hosea 1:11, which alludes to Exodus 4:22, 23. Jesus is the true vine in John 15 which is another reference to Israel. Jesus comes out of Egypt (like Israel), goes through the water (like Israel), is tempted in the wilderness (like Israel) and suffers exile (at the cross when he cries "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" He is the true Israel and according to Galatians 3 and 6, all those who believe in him (or are baptized into him) are by virtue of being in Jesus are in the true Israel. What someone is ethnically, classwise, or Genderwise does not matter.

 

[darjohns]

Jesus is the true Israel. This can be seen clearly in Galatians 3:16 and other passages like Matthew 2:15 which quotes Hosea 1:11, which alludes to Exodus 4:22, 23. Jesus is the true vine in John 15 which is another reference to Israel. Jesus comes out of Egypt (like Israel), goes through the water (like Israel), is tempted in the wilderness (like Israel) and suffers exile (at the cross when he cries "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" He is the true Israel and according to Galatians 3 and 6, all those who believe in him (or are baptized into him) are by virtue of being in Jesus are in the true Israel. What someone is ethnically, classwise, or Genderwise does not matter.

 

[grabsuccess]

View Poll Results: What is the relationship of the Church to Israel?

God divorced Israel. The Church is now Israel.
Israel is ever God's Covenant People, but the Church is the New Israel.
The Church is grafted onto Israel, becoming Israel as well.
Israel is ever Israel. The Church is the People of God, not Israel.
Same as above, but Jews within the Church are also still Israel
Other (please explain)

I pick Other!

The Church is a wild olive tree grafted into the original olive tree of the chosen ones (Israel), not just the Jews. This makes the Church (mostly gentiles) spiritual brothers of Israel and thus becoming the legal heirs of Christ as the Children of God with Israel.

Jews that believe upon the Name of Jesus before the rapture of the Church are part of the Church (The Bride of Christ), Jews that believe that Jesus or Yeshua is the True Messiah are known as Messianic Jews. They are still Jews and will always be Jews but now they believe in their true Messiah and become part of the Church (The Bride of Christ).

The Jews that believe in Jesus or Yeshua after the Church is Raptured will not be part of the Church because the Church is taken away.

Israel to me is The Whole House of Israel which incorporates all of the 12 Tribes of Israel. Jews can only be considered to be 3 of those tribes: Jews of Judah of course, the tribe of Benjamin was in South with Judah, and the Tribe of Levi for priests.

Any questions on anything above can be proved by your Holy Bible if you will just look it up.

The following is just my opinion:

I still believe in the lost Northern 10 Tribes will be found. America, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand and parts of South Africa after many migrations might be composed of parts of these lost tribes.

Warning: Don't ever go to a Jewish Forum and discuss what you believe in as a Christian. They think all of us are Roman Catholic torturers and murderers, and pagan people that worship idols as well. Some non-messianic Jews think Christians worked with the Nazis to kill them, well the Roman Catholics did but Protestants did not. Look that History up "Nazis and the Roman Catholic Church".

 

[bbbbbbb]

View Poll Results: What is the relationship of the Church to Israel?

God divorced Israel. The Church is now Israel.
Israel is ever God's Covenant People, but the Church is the New Israel.
The Church is grafted onto Israel, becoming Israel as well.
Israel is ever Israel. The Church is the People of God, not Israel.
Same as above, but Jews within the Church are also still Israel
Other (please explain)

I pick Other!

The Church is a wild olive tree grafted into the original olive tree of the chosen ones (Israel), not just the Jews. This makes the Church (mostly gentiles) spiritual brothers of Israel and thus becoming the legal heirs of Christ as the Children of God with Israel.

Jews that believe upon the Name of Jesus before the rapture of the Church are part of the Church (The Bride of Christ), Jews that believe that Jesus or Yeshua is the True Messiah are known as Messianic Jews. They are still Jews and will always be Jews but now they believe in their true Messiah and become part of the Church (The Bride of Christ).

The Jews that believe in Jesus or Yeshua after the Church is Raptured will not be part of the Church because the Church is taken away.

Israel to me is The Whole House of Israel which incorporates all of the 12 Tribes of Israel. Jews can only be considered to be 3 of those tribes: Jews of Judah of course, the tribe of Benjamin was in South with Judah, and the Tribe of Levi for priests.

Any questions on anything above can be proved by your Holy Bible if you will just look it up.

The following is just my opinion:

I still believe in the lost Northern 10 Tribes will be found. America, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand and parts of South Africa after many migrations might be composed of parts of these lost tribes.

Warning: Don't ever go to a Jewish Forum and discuss what you believe in as a Christian. They think all of us are Roman Catholic torturers and murderers, and pagan people that worship idols as well. Some non-messianic Jews think Christians worked with the Nazis to kill them, well the Roman Catholics did but Protestants did not. Look that History up "Nazis and the Roman Catholic Church".

Sadly, the State Evangelical (Lutheran) Church of Germany was taken over by Hitler and his cronies so that many patriotic German Protestants ended up serving the Nazi regime. It is true that some evangelicals such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer did resist the Nazis, but they were either murdered in the concentration camps or were otherwise marginalized. It is also true that Catholic priests who resisted Hitler were murdered in the concentration camps. The general who bravely attempted to assassinate Hitler in 1944 was a devout Roman Catholic. He was immediately murdered when the attempt failed.

 

[Heavens]

There is only one Israel.

(Exo 4:22) And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

(Mat 2:15) And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Can anyone guess His Name?

 

[Hismessenger]

God never truly divorced Israel. Part of the problem with the understanding is that the people Israel are no more or less than we the gentile. The word makes this quite clear when it says there is no Jew or Gentile. The true Israel is and has always been the people of promise, old testament and new. Too many won't open their eyes to this truth and thus we have this debate about replacement theology. There is no replacement, there is only and once again always has been the Israel of God. The ethnic people were chosen just like a peat tree dish for others to see the results brought about by either their willingness to follow God or follow their carnal hearts. All Israel will be saved but only those who have a heart for God. Some will fall just like their gentile counter parts and be lost for eternity. That is what truly makes you the Israel of God. A heart that longs for him in all your ways.

hismessenger

 

[cajunhillbilly]

A little Scripture on where Israel stands;

“On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphra'tes, the land of the Ken'ites, the Ken'izzites, the Kad'monites, the Hittites, the Per'izzites, the Reph'aim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Gir'ga[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es and the Jeb'usites.” (Gen. 15:18-21).

“Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land which he swore to give to their fathers; and having taken possession of it, they settled there” (Jos. 21:43).

“But if you turn aside from following me, you or your children, and do not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them, then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and the house which I have consecrated for my name I will cast out of my sight; and Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples. And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone passing by it will be astonished, and will hiss; and they will say, `Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?' Then they will say, `Because they forsook the LORD their God (Yeshua) who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore the LORD has brought all this evil upon them.’” (1 Kings 9:6-9).

The Old Covenant that God entered into with the Jews has been superseded by the New Covenant of Christ (the Church calls this doctrine “supercessionism”). This happened the moment that God tore the curtain of the Jewish Temple in two (Matt. 27:51). When we speak of the “Old Covenant,” we are referring to the “Mosaic covenant,” that is, the law that God gave the Jews through Moses (see 2 Cor. 3:14). We are not referring to the Abrahamic covenant which, because it was based on grace through faith, was incorporated into the New Covenant of Christ. This is why Paul says that Abraham is the father of the children of the New Covenant (see Rom. 4:16; 9:7; Gal. 3:29; James 2:21; see also Gal. 3:9,14,16,18).

This means that the Jews are no longer in a saving covenant with God until they renounce Judaism and are baptized into Jesus Christ. The Church has affirmed this fact throughout her history. Thus, even though the Church affirms a person’s civil (but not moral) right to religious liberty, its taught that the Church must preach the gospel to the Jews, as she does to everyone else (Nostra Aetate, 23).

God establishes His New Covenant at the First Coming of Christ, not the Second Coming. As we see with Hebrews 9:27-28, when Christ comes the second and final time, He will not come to establish a covenant or forgive sin. He will come to judge sin according to the covenant He has already established at His First Coming.

Peace.

I agree with you on this.

 

[Heavens]

God never truly divorced Israel. Part of the problem with the understanding is that the people Israel are no more or less than we the gentile. The word makes this quite clear when it says there is no Jew or Gentile. The true Israel is and has always been the people of promise, old testament and new. Too many won't open their eyes to this truth and thus we have this debate about replacement theology. There is no replacement, there is only and once again always has been the Israel of God. The ethnic people were chosen just like a peat tree dish for others to see the results brought about by either their willingness to follow God or follow their carnal hearts. All Israel will be saved but only those who have a heart for God. Some will fall just like their gentile counter parts and be lost for eternity. That is what truly makes you the Israel of God. A heart that longs for him in all your ways.

hismessenger

Yes God truly divorced Israel;

(Jer 3:8) And I saw, when, for this very cause that backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah her sister feared not; but she also went and played the harlot.

(Isa 50:1) Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, wherewith I have put her away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities were ye sold, and for your transgressions was your mother put away.

God said "she is not my wife";

(Hos 2:2) Plead with your mother, plead; for she is not my wife, neither am I her husband: and let her put away her whoredoms from her face, and her adulteries from between her breasts;

But He promised that He would remarry Her in His coming New Covenant;

(Hos 2:14) Therefore, behold, I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfortably unto her.
(Hos 2:16) And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi (HUSBAND); and shalt call me no more Baali.

He would Marry Her by "Betrothing Himself to the 'beasts of the field, creeping things of the earth and fowls of Heaven";

(Hos 2:18) And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the land, and will make them to lie down safely.
(Hos 2:19) And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Which was fulfilled in the New Testatment, WORD FOR WORD;

(Act 10:12) wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts and creeping things of the earth and fowls of the heaven.
(Act 10:13) And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill and eat.
(Act 10:14) But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common and unclean.

Peter KNEW that the fulfillment of Hosea to ISRAEL was to the "common unclean gentiles";

(Act 10:28) and he said unto them, Ye yourselves know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to join himself or come unto one of another nation; and yet unto me hath God shewed that I should not call any man common or unclean:

As per the Holp of Israel, fulfilled!

(Act 10:34) And Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
(Act 10:35) but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him.

(Act 10:36) The word which he sent unto the children of Israel, preaching good tidings of peace by Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all)––

Which is ALL CHRISTIANS

(Gal 6:16) And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The Abrahamic Covenant fulfilled in Christ!

(Gal 3:16) Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Married now!

(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

This is us!

(Heb 12:22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Born sons of God out of the New Jerusalem, Christ's Wife;

(Gal 4:26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Gal 4:28) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
(Gal 4:29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
(Gal 4:30) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
(Gal 4:31) So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Blessings in Christ

 

[Hismessenger]

Heavens; you did not read far enough in the book of Hosea for God will never fully divorce His people. He puts us through a time of testing as attested to in Hosea but He waits with open arms for our return. Does not the word say that if there is a divorce The parties must be reconciled to each other for to do otherwise is adultery. Else they must remain celibate.

Hsa 2:19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

Hsa 2:20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.

Hsa 2:21 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;

Hsa 2:22 And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.

Hsa 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to [them which were] not my people, Thou [art] my people; and they shall say, [Thou art] my God.

When you truly love someone, can you ever really give up on them?

hismessenger

 

[Beautiful Ignorance]

I voted other. I think that Judaism and Christianity are two entirely different but equally valid religions for two entirely different groups of people.

 

[RefCath]

Jesus is the true Israel and all who are baptised into him are Israel or the Church.

 

[Rant]

What is EKKLESIA?

 

[WisdomTree]

The poll is rather confusing...

 

[Simonline]

I am curious what the general results of this poll might be. Supersessionism/Replacement Theology is an abomination to Messianic Jews, and we try to educate the Christian churches regarding this. It is this doctrine which fostered the appearance and growth of anti-Semitism in the Christian world, leading directly to the suffering and deaths of COUNTLESS Jews. It is, for us, not an abstract theological issue, but the painful reality of how bad doctrine results in evil.

Comments?

Shalom

I concur.

The best books I've read on the subject to date are Israel and the Church by Ronald E. Diprose http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Church-Ronald-E-Diprose/dp/1884543979 ; Future Israel by Barry Horner http://www.futureisraelministries.org/ and Our Hands are Stained with Blood by Michael L. Brown http://www.amazon.com/Our-Hands-Are-Stained-Blood/dp/1560430680

The Gentile Christian Church has much both in the past and present of which she needs to be ashamed and for which she desperately needs to repent. The antichristic/antisemitic spirit of the age is rampant within the Church and many Biblically and theologically ignorant believers and adherents are being swept along both by and with it.

Simonline.