What is the Church's relationship to Israel?

[GeratTzedek]

I am curious what the general results of this poll might be. Supersessionism/Replacement Theology is an abomination to Messianic Jews, and we try to educate the Christian churches regarding this. It is this doctrine which fostered the appearance and growth of anti-Semitism in the Christian world, leading directly to the suffering and deaths of COUNTLESS Jews. It is, for us, not an abstract theological issue, but the painful reality of how bad doctrine results in evil.

Comments?

Shalom

 

[KSA]

I would like to quote something here:

Dispensationalists speak of "Israel" and the "Church" as two distinct peoples of God. While all true members of the "Church" are saved, and will be resurrected at the resurrection of the just, this is not the case with Israel. Traditional Dispensationalists are comparing apples to oranges here, when they refer to two different peoples of God. Israel is a "nation," not a spiritual entity. Dispensationalists fail to address the fact that the Old Testament promises to Israel will be fulfilled literally in the Millennium, but ONLY by the righteous remnant who are raised at the resurrection of the Just. [Daniel 12:1-3,13, Mal. 3:16 - 4:3, Rom. 11:2-5]. Most of Israel is lost. This has been true throughout their entire history. The unfaithful majority of Israel will not be resurrected or inherit anything in the Kingdom. Dispensationalists speak of "Israel" as a nation, yet they fail to clearly distinguish the believers from the unbelievers within Israel. Consequently, they speak of the Old Testament promises being fulfilled for "Israel" in the Millennium, yet imply that this is merely all the Jews still alive after the tribulation. They have forgotten about all of the saints of Hebrews 11 from the Old Testament, who will receive the literal fulfillment of those promises to Israel in the Millennium, in resurrected bodies.
Progressive dispensationalists have simply taken this fact to its logical conclusion. Jews saved after Christ are still as much "Jews" as are the patriarchs, and will still partake of the promises along with the patriarchs, in resurrected bodies. All saints make up the "Church." Yet, Jewish believers have special promises from the Old Testament that are not cancelled for them just because they happen to live after Pentecost.
Progressive dispensationalism maintains the distinction between Israel and the Church, not by segregating them into two separate "peoples of God." But, by nationality, and recognizing that one group is merely a nation, and the other a spiritual entity. Israel is a nation made up of believers and unbelievers. The Church is a spiritual organism made up of the remnant of Jewish believers and the remnant of Gentile believers. Consequently, we have three entities - the Jews, the Gentiles, and the Church of God - the Church having members from both groups. The Jewish Millennial inheritance will be realized by the Jewish members of the Church. And the general promises of inheritance will be realized by the whole Church.

Written by Tim Warner

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I am curious what the general results of this poll might be. Supersessionism/Replacement Theology is an abomination to Messianic Jews, and we try to educate the Christian churches regarding this. It is this doctrine which fostered the appearance and growth of anti-Semitism in the Christian world, leading directly to the suffering and deaths of COUNTLESS Jews. It is, for us, not an abstract theological issue, but the painful reality of how bad doctrine results in evil.

Comments?

Shalom

Supersessionism, or 'replacement theology,' is a complete and total strawman.

Virtually no series theologian has ever suggested that the church 'replaced' Israel. Rather, the Gentiles were grafted into a remnant of ancient Israel restored by Christ as the pentecost community, and rest of ethnic Israel remains in spritual exile. God fulfilled his promise to restore a faithful remnant, and that remnant is the core of the modern church.

 

[Melethiel]

Supersessionism, or 'replacement theology,' is a complete and total strawman.

Virtually no series theologian has ever suggested that the church 'replaced' Israel. Rather, the Gentiles were grafted into a remnant of ancient Israel restored by Christ as the pentecost community, and rest of ethnic Israel remains in spritual exile. God fulfilled his promise to restore a faithful remnant, and that remnant is the core of the modern church.

What he said.

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't even know how to define myself on this one...

I mean, I believe in dispensations per se, OT & NT, but I believe that in Christ there are no distinctions of significance like Jews or Gentiles.

So for me, Dispensationalism digresses into an entirely eschatalogical position from there.
And I see eschatology as simply a matter of preparing oneself, not date setting or defining scenarios beyond a practical spiritual preparation purpose.
I have to contextualize all my physical preparation into a Civil Defense posture to prevent Apocolyptic Paranoia feeding Imminent Danger delusions.(Remember Y2K?)

And worse, the nation Isreal, only accounts for a couple or 3 tribes, the rest having dispersed, so I appreciate the Lost Tribes stuff, but I don't buy into it making much difference about who is saved & who ain't, & I don't realy care too much exactly who the 144,000 are nationaly, or tribaly speaking - those kind of details have little relevance in my personal life.
In fact, I even believe it may be easier for a poor Muslim, Hindu, or Jew to be saved than for a rich Christian.

 

[cyberlizard]

i believe as a gentile follower of Messiah, I am grafted in to Israel. I am israel in the sense of contending with God.

That aside, the Israel, his covenant people, are and always will be his people. They are the apple of his eye (Zech.2v8).


I think most people misunderstand the word 'church' from the greek 'ekklesia' meaning to be a member of a socio-economic group, bit like a trade union. When Jesus spoke of building his church, he was referring to his 'lifestyle followers'. When he said it his target audience were jewish, hence him only being sent to the 'lost sheep of the house of Israel'.

Here's to hoping we do not get into a two house discussion.

one day soon Messiah will return and then sovereign rule will be restored in Israel, with a new king on the throne... marana'ta

 

[Rick Otto]

Amen, C-lizard.

 

[KSA]

Supersessionism, or 'replacement theology,' is a complete and total strawman.

Virtually no series theologian has ever suggested that the church 'replaced' Israel. Rather, the Gentiles were grafted into a remnant of ancient Israel restored by Christ as the pentecost community, and rest of ethnic Israel remains in spritual exile. God fulfilled his promise to restore a faithful remnant, and that remnant is the core of the modern church.

But do you believe that the remnant of ethnic Israel will be saved at the 2nd coming of Christ? In other words, will natural branches be grafted back?

 

[a_ntv]

the sentences:

Israel is ever G-d's Covenant People, but Ekklesia is the New Israel.
and
Ekklesia is grafted onto Israel, becoming Israel as well

are almost the same think

Please have a look to what is a olive-tree graft (I suppose that most of people here is not used to grow olives):
1 phase: cutting the old: http://www.vogliaditerra.com/ulivi/innesto/sega.JPG
2 phase : graft the new trees: http://www.vogliaditerra.com/ulivi/innesto/innesto3.JPG
3 final result: http://www.vogliaditerra.com/ulivi/i...stovecchio.JPG
The final result give you a good idea of the new Isreal (the church) on the old Israel: but the breaking point is very clear

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

But do you believe that the remnant of ethnic Israel will be saved at the 2nd coming of Christ? In other words, will natural branches be grafted back?

No, the faithful remnant of Israel that returned from exile was the remnant community identified by John's baptism and restored through the ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, and pentecost.

 

[KSA]

What do you think of Zech. 14 then? I know that some claim that this portion was fulfilled in 70 AD. However, I did not find this point of view convincing. If you believe that Zech. 14 is fulfilled, would you share your arguments?

 

[Jim1]

The Ekklhsia did not replace Israel. Rather, the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant when Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant, shed the Blood of the New Covenant on the cross, thus removing sin, and thus initiating God's New Covenant with the house of Israel, as predicted by Jeremiah. However, only part of the house of Israel accepted this New Covenant by believing in Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant. This part of the house of Israel is comprised of the saints (believers in Christ). This part of the house of Israel is the Ekklhsia. The Cornerstone of this part of the house of Israel, this Ekklhsia, is Christ, and its citizens are the saints. As Christ says in Matthew 21:42-43, the Stone (Christ) which the builders (the Jews) reject becomes the Cornerstone of the building (Israel), and the kingdom of God is taken from the Jews who do not believe in Him and given to the nation that produces the fruits of the kingdom of God, this nation being this building (Israel), or this part of the building (Israel), whose Cornerstone is Christ and whose citizens are the ones who believe in Him (the saints). The other part of the house of Israel refused this New Covenant by not believing in Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant. This part of the house of Israel chose to continue to try to reach God in the Old Covenant through the law of Moses. Thus, ever since the cross, the house of Israel has been split into two parts, and thus into two Israels. These two parts of the house of Israel are described in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, where Paul analogizes Israel in 11:25-27 as the cultivated olive tree in 11:16-24. The very same people who comprise the unbelieving part of the tree in 11:16-24 (the broken-off branches) comprise the unbelieving part of Israel in 11:25-27, and the very same people who comprise the believing part of the tree in 11:16-24 comprise the believing part of Israel in 11:25-27. Thus, the tree in 11:16-24 has to be Israel in 11:25-27; it can't be anything else. Paul says in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27 that part of the tree / Israel does not believe in Christ until Gentile believers join Jewish believers in the part of the tree / Israel that believes in Him, after which the part of the tree / Israel that had not believed in Him will likewise believe in Him and will likewise enter into the part of the tree / Israel that believes in Him, at which point all Israel (both parts) will have been saved by believing in Christ, at which point the transition of the house of Israel from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant will be complete. These two parts of the tree / Israel in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27 are differentiated as the two different Israels in 9:6-8 and in 9:31-32 and 11:7-11. The Israel in 9:6-8 is the part of the tree / Israel that believes in Christ in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, which is comprised of the saints, both Greek and Jew. As Paul says in 9:6-8, this "Israel" is comprised of "the children of the promise / the children of God," whom he identifies in 4:13-16 (4:16) / 8:14-18 (8:16) as the saints, both Greek and Jew. The Israel in 9:31-32 and 11:7-11 is the part of the tree / Israel that does not believe in Christ in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, which is comprised of the Jews (non-saints). As Paul says in 9:31-32 and 11:7-11, they stumbled on the Stone of stumbling by not believing in Him, and they did not find what they seek, whereas the election (the Israel in 9:6-8 [the saints, both Greek and Jew]) found it, and the rest (the other of the two groups in view, namely, Israel [the Jews (non-saints)]), were hardened in unbelief, the result being that salvation was given to the Gentiles (the Gentile aspect of the election) in order to make them (Israel [the Jews (non-saints)]) jealous. Paul says that same thing in 11:7-11 that he says in 9:30-32, specifically, that the Gentiles (the Gentile aspect of the election, which is the Israel in 9:6-8, which is the part of the tree / Israel that believes in Christ in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27) have received what Israel (the Israel in 9:31-32 and 11:7-11, which is the part of the tree / Israel that does not believe in Christ in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27) has not received. Paul says that one day, once the fullness (the full number) of the Gentiles has entered into the part of the tree / Israel that believes in Christ in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, which is the Israel in 9:6-8, which is the children of the promise / the children of God in 4:13-16 / 8:14-18, who are the vessels of mercy in 9:22-24, then the part of the tree / Israel that had not believed in Christ in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, which is the Israel in 9:31-32 and 11:7-11, who are the vessels of wrath in 9:22-24, will likewise believe in Christ and will likewise enter into the part of the tree / Israel that believes in Christ in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, at which point all Israel (both parts) will have been saved by believing in Christ, at which point the transition of the house of Israel from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant will be complete. Thus, the Ekklhsia does not replace Israel. Rather, the Old Covenant replaced the New Covenant at the cross, and the Ekklhsia IS the part of the house of Israel that accepts God's New Covenant with the house of Israel by believing in Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant. The part of the tree / Israel in 11:16-24 / 11:25-27 that does not yet believe in Christ will not be saved separately as broken-off branches. Rather, the unbelieving (Old Covenant) part of the house of Israel will finally believe in Christ, and they, like the believing Gentiles before them, will enter into the part of the house of Israel that believes in Christ (the Ekklhsia) as fellow saints and fellow citizens. Thus, as Paul states, "they" (the Jews [non-saints]) will become "us" (the saints, both Greek and Jew) as fellow citizens of New Covenant Israel, which is the part of the tree / Israel that believes in Christ in Romans 11:16-24 / 11:25-27, which is the Israel in Romans 9:6-8, which is the Israel of God in Galatians 6:15-16, which is the Israel in Ephesians 2:11-13 and 2:19-22, whose Cornerstone is Christ and whose citizens are the saints, both Greek and Jew. The Ekklhsia does not replace Israel. Rather, the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant at the cross, and the Ekklhsia IS the part of the house of Israel that accepts God's New Covenant with the house of Israel by believing in Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant; the Ekklhsia IS New Covenant Israel. The Jews who believe in Christ ARE the part of the house of Israel in Romans 11:25-27 that accepts God's New Covenant with the house of Israel by believing in Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant, and believing Gentiles are now joining these believing Jews as fellow saints and as fellow citizens of New Covenant Israel, which is the part of the house of Israel that accepts the New Covenant in 11:25-27, which is the Israel in 9:6-8, which is why Paul says in Ephesians 2:11-13 that now that the Ephesians believe in Christ, they are no longer excluded from the citizenship of Israel (New Covenant Israel, the part of the house of Israel that accepts God's New Covenant with the house of Israel by believing in Christ, the Mediator of the New Covenant, the Cornerstone of this New Covenant Israel being Christ Himself, and the citizens of this New Covenant Israel being the saints, both Greek and Jew).

Jim

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Supersessionism, or 'replacement theology,' is a complete and total strawman.

Virtually no series theologian has ever suggested that the church 'replaced' Israel. Rather, the Gentiles were grafted into a remnant of ancient Israel restored by Christ as the pentecost community, and rest of ethnic Israel remains in spritual exile. God fulfilled his promise to restore a faithful remnant, and that remnant is the core of the modern church.

i agree with this

 

[Diane_Windsor]

I picked other just because I like to vote in polls

 

[Brennin]

I believe Christians are God's covenant people, not Jews (except Jewish Christians).

 

[JoabAnias]

A little Scripture on where Israel stands;

“On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphra'tes, the land of the Ken'ites, the Ken'izzites, the Kad'monites, the Hittites, the Per'izzites, the Reph'aim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Gir'gashites and the Jeb'usites.” (Gen. 15:18-21).

“Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land which he swore to give to their fathers; and having taken possession of it, they settled there” (Jos. 21:43).

“But if you turn aside from following me, you or your children, and do not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods and worship them, then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them; and the house which I have consecrated for my name I will cast out of my sight; and Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples. And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone passing by it will be astonished, and will hiss; and they will say, `Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?' Then they will say, `Because they forsook the LORD their God (Yeshua) who brought their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshiped them and served them; therefore the LORD has brought all this evil upon them.’” (1 Kings 9:6-9).

The Old Covenant that God entered into with the Jews has been superseded by the New Covenant of Christ (the Church calls this doctrine “supercessionism”). This happened the moment that God tore the curtain of the Jewish Temple in two (Matt. 27:51). When we speak of the “Old Covenant,” we are referring to the “Mosaic covenant,” that is, the law that God gave the Jews through Moses (see 2 Cor. 3:14). We are not referring to the Abrahamic covenant which, because it was based on grace through faith, was incorporated into the New Covenant of Christ. This is why Paul says that Abraham is the father of the children of the New Covenant (see Rom. 4:16; 9:7; Gal. 3:29; James 2:21; see also Gal. 3:9,14,16,18).

This means that the Jews are no longer in a saving covenant with God until they renounce Judaism and are baptized into Jesus Christ. The Church has affirmed this fact throughout her history. Thus, even though the Church affirms a person’s civil (but not moral) right to religious liberty, its taught that the Church must preach the gospel to the Jews, as she does to everyone else (Nostra Aetate, 23).

God establishes His New Covenant at the First Coming of Christ, not the Second Coming. As we see with Hebrews 9:27-28, when Christ comes the second and final time, He will not come to establish a covenant or forgive sin. He will come to judge sin according to the covenant He has already established at His First Coming.

Peace.

 

[Micah68]

I am curious what the general results of this poll might be. Supersessionism/Replacement Theology is an abomination to Messianic Jews, and we try to educate the Christian churches regarding this. It is this doctrine which fostered the appearance and growth of anti-Semitism in the Christian world, leading directly to the suffering and deaths of COUNTLESS Jews. It is, for us, not an abstract theological issue, but the painful reality of how bad doctrine results in evil.

Comments?

Shalom

The church is Israel renewed and restored in Christ but now enlarged to embrace people of all nations.


My vote is not correct, I should have thought about more.

 

[Micah68]

Supersessionism, or 'replacement theology,' is a complete and total strawman.

Virtually no series theologian has ever suggested that the church 'replaced' Israel. Rather, the Gentiles were grafted into a remnant of ancient Israel restored by Christ as the pentecost community, and rest of ethnic Israel remains in spritual exile. God fulfilled his promise to restore a faithful remnant, and that remnant is the core of the modern church.

What an awesome answer!! Thanks

 

[HypoTypoSis]

The Jews are God's promised earthly people.
Those in Christ are God's promised heavenly people.

Those in Christ are engrafted onto the Jews.

The Jews preferred to live by sight having seen the miracles of God firsthand and requested instead to live by the law, thus they had not the faith (except for the prophets of old) to see the promises from afar.
Those in Christ choose to live by faith having never seen the wondrous acts of God but believing in the promises from afar.

The Jews are God's chosen people and are to be The Bride.
Those in Christ will be with Christ, in Christ, where Christ is, in The Father as the Father is in The Son.

Those in Christ that mistake their future place insisting instead they are The Bride are unknowingly settling for second best for The Bride shall rule the saved nations in the new creation's new earth while those in Christ shall rule all from within The Godhead with The Father and The Son just as The Father that bestowed upon The Son His glory the Son bestowed that very same glory upon those that believe in Him.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Supersessionism/Replacement Theology is an abomination to Messianic Jews,

• In as far as the statement goes I am in agreement.
• I would expand on that to include all Jews.
• Further, supersessionism, which later became Replacement Theology, and did not seriously begin to decline in the Catholic Church until the mid-1800's saw further decline by the end of the 1800's and was finally declared ended by the Pope in late 1960's-early 1970's despite the fact the Vatican still maintains an Office of the Inquisition (lately renamed).
• It was not until after the extremity of the Nazis that brought the horrific long standing millennia old treatment of the Jews to a culmination that the bulk of the Western World amassed enough pressure to at least tacitly officiate its end.
• In the meantime, those that left the Catholic Church circa Reformation brought with them much of the RT thinking, Luther, Calvin and others were great proponents of it at the time and we find, still, the older Catholic branches even today that still adhere to this thinking (Mel Gibson being one member of such).
• In the Mid-1800's after Darby's Dispensationalism brought much of the biblical credit for Jews to light those Protestants that still adhered to the core of this RT teaching thus spawned the Covenant Theology movement which endures in great stead to this day.
• It is herein that much of the confusion regarding the true identity of The Bride (the Jews) springs from for it is those latter day Supersessionist/Replacement Theology/Covenant Theology adherents that, in effect,
• steal all the blessings and promises made to Israel leaving the Jews only the curses which we see prominently enacted by both Catholics and Protestants variously throughout the past two thousand years.
• Today there is still a various assortment of Neo-Nazis, skinheads, Iranians, Islamics and others that still seek not just in taking Israel from the Jews but
• totally eradicating them from the face of the earth
• much as though they were (still) being controlled by Satan in a plot to destroy the very lineage that connects them to the Christ that died for all
• thereby making Him tantamount to just another man and
• His Godly attributes no more than a mythical story the same as the pagan gods of old such as Zeus, Hercules, etc
• in which case, the Original Lie, "ye shall not die" and "ye shall be as gods" gives greater impetus to all the worldwide religions then and to this day
• that have their roots in all the pagan religions spawned by Nimrod's Babylonian religion
• which is humanistic and evolutionary at its core;
• in essence, in accord with The Original Lie that man is his own god.