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Futurist Only What is the chronological order of Revelation?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Jeffwhosoever, Apr 15, 2022.

  1. Sorn

    Sorn Well-Known Member

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    I think God will like creative people & will let them create, and you'd just be coding or programming anyway.
     
  2. JulieB67

    JulieB67 Well-Known Member

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    Well, I believe the key to understanding the timeline of Revelation is this verse,

    Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

    I don't believe it was a day of the week or Sunday. No disciple including John ever called the day of the week -the Lord's day. Christ returns on the Lord's day.

    John is then told to write about the past present and future of that timeframe -the Lord's Day. So we are going to go through different orders, especially chapter 12 which covers past, present and future.

    The seals cover the entire tribulation. They aren't actions, they are stamps that we must be impressed with.

    Seal -Greek word 4973- a signet- stamp impressed (as mark of privacy- or genuineness -seal. This is knowlede that we want, this is the mark that we want.

    The seals are given in order if importance, we must know this above all as Christians -

    Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

    We have to know that the first rider on the white horse is not Christ but Antichrist/Satan.

    Paul taught this in 2nd Thessalonians and his other teachings include the fact that Satan will be disguised as an angel of light and it's only the full armour on that will cause us to be able to stand in that "evil day". When Christ returns he will have many crowns, this first rider is a fake. And he's out to conquer and deceive the nations.

    The rest of the seals covers what will happen all the way until the end,

    Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

    It's always been about one day. There's not multiple wraths, the seals aren't separate events, etc. This covers the tribulation all the way until Christ's return/God's wrath poured out.

    The 7 trumps are a call to action, events will play out during them. When the 7th trump sounds the time of this earth age is no more.

    But we can see in certain chapters that we switch back and forth between certain events, etc with the beast, the FP, etc. But it's all within the trumps. When the Lord's day happens, God's wrath, pouring of the vials and the return of Christ all happen.

    The events tend to be explained within the time frame of the trumps, here's an example,

    Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    The 7th trump has sounded, the mystery of God should be finished. But we still have 12 chapters yet. Meaning the events of of the tribulation are still being explained "within" the 7 trumps.

    In the next chapter, we see the two witnesses explained, and the 7th angel has yet to sound and 3 days later

    Revelation 11:13 "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven."

    Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

    Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

    At this point Christ has returned and the kingdoms of "this" world are become kingdoms of our Lord. Thy wrath is come, the nations are about to be judged. This is the end explained again. There are not multiple events and endings, they are the same. And we still have 11 chapters left. Meaning it's impossible for the entire book of Revelation to be in chronological order.

    Here's another example that the seals are for knowledge and cover the tribulation,

    Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

    Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

    This is the very same event.


    The seals are for knowledge, the trumps are a call to action and the events play out within them. And God's wrath (the vials, etc) happens when the Lord's day arrives which starts the 1000 year reign and then the eternity.

    I believe this as well.

    ETA, the only chapters I believe are chronological are 19-22 because we see the beast and the FP thrown into the lake of fire and in 20 they are described as being in there already after the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.




     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2022
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  3. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The church is currently in Paradise. Yes or no?
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The first four trumpets are the plagues that the two witnesses call for when they battle against the beast near the end of their 1260 days of testimony - first half of the seven years.

    The hurt the first four trumpets put on the inhabiters of the earth - is why after the beast kills them, the world rejoices and exchange presents in Revelation 11.

    Shortly afterwards, after the two witnesses come back to life and ascend to heaven, the seventh angel begins to sound his trumpet.

    The seventh trumpet lasts the entire second half - called "in the days of the seventh" trumpet in Revelation 10:7.

    The seventh trumpet sounds, signaling Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth from the second heaven.

    Woe to the inhabiters of the earth (the third mentioned woe to the inhabiters of the earth) Revelation 12:12. In Revelation 9:1 the angel fallen to earth is Satan. He is given the keys to the bottomless pit, and in his great wrath opens it to release the flesh tormenting locust (the first mentioned woe to the inhabiters of the earth).

    Near the end of the 7 years, the 200,000,000 man army destroys a third of mankind (the second mention woe to the inhabiters of the earth) - the Chinese and allies on their way to the middle east - the battles in Daniel 11:40-45.

    So in summary....

    trumpets 1, 2, 3, 4 by the two witnesses, first half of the seven years

    trumpet 7 - long lasting - across the second half of the seven years.

    1. Satan cast down to earth, 3rd woe revealed.

    a. he opens the bottomless pit, flesh tormenting locust, 5 months of terror.

    b. the four angels bound in river Euphrates (dried up in Revelation 16:12, the sixth vial of wrath) - a third of mankind killed by the Chinese army and allies. Near the end of the 7 years, the battles in Daniel 11:40-45.
     
  5. Sorn

    Sorn Well-Known Member

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    Gee, 2 questions and you come back with another, really helpful - NOT.
    No, the church is not currently in paradise but we are not currently in the 1000 year period after the GT either, whats your point??
     
  6. Sorn

    Sorn Well-Known Member

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    I don't know who the 200 million are but they are not the Chinese & their allies.
    China population is decreasing and some estimates put a 50% reduction before the end of the century.
    In any case, even if don't decrease, no one has an army that big or could get one.. Most countries have armies that are less than 1% of their population (assuming military here, all branches) if its just 'army' specifically, then less than a 1/3 of 1 %.
    200 million is currently close to 20% of Chinese population. No country would maintain the stocks of equipment necessary to equip such large proportion of their population with the gear a modern infantryman / army needs. Maybe the number is just there to signify a large army, but when you think about it, it'd be almost impossible to equip an army that big unless the effort had been taking years.
    Not even a bunch of countries combined could do this, even harder then.

    So unless this is far future stuff - a couple of centuries or more in the future perhaps when who knows what the world will be like, it's not describing reality, not this century anyway.
     
  7. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Where is the church then; dead? You think there have only been a couple hundred redeemed in the last 5,000 years, but only in the last 100 years is the "bulk" of the church?

    Are you saying only Jesus is currently in Paradise?

    If you cannot figure out where the church currently is, how will you understand where the church is after the Second Coming?
     
  8. Sorn

    Sorn Well-Known Member

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    Because where they are now may not be where they will be after the 2nd coming. This was the 1st of my fairly simple questions seeking what your opinion was. Apologies if it was too complex for you!

    So in case you feel like providing your opinion in a way that anyone can understand i'll ask the 2 questions again.
    1) Where will current Christians be during the 1000 year reign, am I right that you are saying in heaven/paradise but NOT earth?
    2) Who goes into or is alive at the start of the 1000 period to reproduce & populate the Earth once
    again? & if possible what is you justification for your position on this please
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    End of the century is 80 years away, so the 50% reduction forecast is irrelevant. The beginning of the 7 years is very close, within the next 8 years or so.

    China's current population is 1,448,471,400.

    200,000,000 army from China alone would leave them with 1,248,471,400. Include Japan and Korea, that number is not out of reach.

    The 7 years begin following the Gog/Magog event, which Russia is now setting itself up for.
     
  10. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    The church has been in Paradise since the Cross. The church will remain in Paradise until the NHNE, when Paradise comes down out of Heaven as the New Jerusalem. This is how I have always stated that fact.

    No verse in Revelation 20 states the New Jerusalem descends at a Second Coming for the 1,000 year reign on earth. The church does not leave Paradise. The church is not with Christ at Armageddon in Revelation 19. The church is not mentioned in Revelation 20:4 as those resurrected.

    Those living in the 1,000 year reign are from earth after the church has been removed at the 6th Seal. The 144k sealed between the 6th and 7th Seal are on earth. The firstfruits. The sheep in Matthew 25 are people currently alive who are not part of the church. They are of Jacob from all nations. The wheat in Matthew 13 are Gentiles currently alive, who are not the church. All these are people elect by God after the church is gone as a redeemed remnant, but not the glorified church. They are not saved by choice nor unseen faith. They are chosen by God as firstfruits. They are not past dead people. They are currently alive today.

    This is not a "second chance" "left behind" scenario. The sheep are granted eternal life by God's choice. The wheat is gathered and "put in the barn" by God's choice. Those living on earth ruling with Christ for 1,000 years are doing so by God's choice, not a free will conscious choice of faith in the Atonement. They do not change themselves. They are physically changed by God, and their sin nature removed.
     
  11. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Tim, the souls of them who have died in Christ have been in heaven since the Cross, agreed. But without their sown in weakness, raised in power, incorruptible bodies, they are not called the church.... at least not in the bible.

    They are not the church, the bride of Christ, until the rapture of the living in Christ/resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place. The church is here on earth until that day take place - when death is swallowed up in victory.

    1Corinthians15:
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2022
  12. Sorn

    Sorn Well-Known Member

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    The way Russia's military is performing, no way they can go beyond Ukraine, let alone attack Israel. Russia's population is also aging rapidly.
    Russia is at serious risk of breakup and disintegration into smaller territories as a result of the current war & its sanctions.
    No, the Gog/Magog event isn't even close yet.

    China only has just under 1 million active troops. There is no way they can field an (equipped) army even approaching the 200million any time soon. It would ruin they're economy, take all their resources and take years & it would be filled with people 40+ years old, not really the best to have march such a along distance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2022
  13. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The 200,000,000 man army will be at the end of the great tribulation and nothing in past human history can compare to what will take place at that time. It will not be a orderly build up of their military at present numbers to reach the 200,000,0000. It will be more spontaneous.
     
  14. Sorn

    Sorn Well-Known Member

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    If it were that easy to spontaneously create an army then Ukraine would now have a spontaneous army of 5 million or more and easily push 100,000 Russians out but that's not the case.
    A spontaneous army of 200million won't be an equipped army, just a rabble of peasants with at best a rifle each. There won't even be the logistics chain available to keep them fed during the march to the middle east. 200million is more people than most countries have. Many would starve to death on the way during the march.

    I'm guessing you're thinking 2030 - 2033 is the 2000 year time frame since the resurrection etc. & that's the reason for your estimates but I don't think the timings are possible at the moment.
     
  15. Sorn

    Sorn Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the explanation, in Post #45 you also state that human loss is 100% and people have to be beheaded. Who are the beheaded, are they people you say above are chosen by God to got into the new millenium? So even the chosen wheat and sheep are killed?
     
  16. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    Death is the shedding of Adam's flesh. Would you call the rapture, being "killed"? John does not tell us how the sheep get from point A to point B. Nor does Jesus. John does not define the rapture and Second Coming from the standpoint of the redeemed on earth.

    Matthew 13 declares the wheat is harvested by the angels. It would seem to me that the sheep and wheat gathered, after the Second Coming, are taken by the angels directly to the start of the Millennium. They are not placed in Death's suspension until the 42 months are over. That is why the angels are the one's doing the harvesting. Otherwise we would be told they died and are resurrected. Those beheaded during that 42 month time are resurrected. We are not told where their souls wait either, unless they are the one's on the sea of glass in Revelation 15:2. Even the sheep and wheat could be there as well. Yet we are told there is a resurrection that starts off this 1,000 year reign with Christ.
     
  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The situation in Ukraine is not comparable to the situation that will be at the end of the great tribulation. The bible gives the size of the army, not any other information, except that they will destroy a third of mankind alive at the time.

    My expectation of when is based on the parable of the fig tree, the fig tree being Jerusalem and 70 years for a generation. The forum rules prevent me from spelling it out.
     
  18. Sorn

    Sorn Well-Known Member

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    The situation in Ukraine is comparable because it highlights how difficult it is to raise a well equipped army and support it logistically. Russia has had all sorts of logistical problems and that's just for a short incursion of 150km or so into a neighboring county let alone march half way around the world!

    You are going to find your understanding or interpretation of scripture is wrong.
    I'm aware that's the size the bible gives but its not humanly possible to raise a proper army of 200 million on short notice in the next decade or so.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2022
  19. Sorn

    Sorn Well-Known Member

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    Ok, don't really with agree with your views but always open to different interpretations & the reasoning behind them.
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    You are not visualizing the world near the end of the great tribulation. The situation in Ukraine, and raising an army in the current world situation is not comparable to when the survival of all the people in a nation is imminent.

    i was in the U.S. army for three years, artillery. You are talking to me about things I know about. The bible does not go in to detail on training, logistics, armament, fuel, etc. when the time comes when God will draw all nations into the middle east, to ultimately band together to make war on Jesus.

    Zechariah 14:
    1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

    2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
     
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