What is the bottomless pit referring to in Rev 20?

[DavidPT]

Great point.

Also, Amil ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Timothy 2:18). For claiming that the Church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus Christ's Second Coming has already happened. For the Church's resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will not happen until the Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Also, Amil ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For regarding the resurrection of those beheaded by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") during the future Tribulation, and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), to say that this is already present would require that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the Tribulation (Revelation 13:4-18) has already happened.

I don't agree they have the first resurrection interpreted correctly, yet their take on this resurrection is not connected with anything in 2 Timothy 2:18. Amils are not claiming the bodily resurrection of saints is already past. They are simply saying the first resurrection in Revelation 20, that it is not meaning this bodily resurrection. Rest of your points I fully agree with though.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What is the bottomless pit referring to in Rev 20?

If you look at what the symbols represent instead of looking for the symbols to appear, it makes sense.

Hmmm, that is a "deep" subject.
Best to first look at where the well of the abyss is used in Revelation..........

G12 (YLT)
G12 matches the Greek ἄβυσσος (abyssos), occurs 9 times in 9 verses

Revelation 11
7 ‘And whenever they should be finishing their testimony,
the beast that is ascending out of the Abyss shall be doing battle with them, and shall be congering/overcoming them, and shall be killing them,
8 and their dead bodies lay upon the broad-place of the great City (that is called spiritually Sodom, and Egypt, where also our/their Lord was crucified,)

Revelation 9:
1 And the fifth messenger did sound, and I saw a Star out of the heaven having fallen to the land,
and there was given to it the key of the well/pit of the Abyss,
2 and he did open the well/pit of the Abyss, and there came up smoke out of the well/pit as smoke of a great furnace,
and darkened was the sun and the air, from the smoke of the well/pit.
11 and they have over them a King — the messenger of the Abyss —
a name [is] to him in Hebrew, Abaddon,
and in the Greek he hath a name, Apollyon/destroyer.

Revelation 17:8
‘The beast that thou didst see: it was, and is not and is being about to be ascending out of the Abyss, and to go away to perdition/destruction,
and wonder shall those dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written upon the scroll of the life from the foundation of the world,
beholding the beast that was, and is not, although it is.

Revelation 20
1 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the Abyss, and a great chain over his hand,
2 and he laid hold on the Dragon, the old serpent, who is a Devil and Satan, and did bind Him a thousand years,
3 and he cast him to the Abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him,
that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished;
and after these, it behoveth him to be loosed a little time.

The other 2 times mentioned in the NT:

In Luke 8, the event of the "kamikaze swine"

Luke 8 [Matthew 8:32 Mark 5:13]
30 And Jesus questioned him, saying, "What is thy name?"
and he said, "Legion" (because many demons were entered into him,)
31 and he was calling on Him, that He may not command them to go away to the Abyss,
32 and there was there a herd of many swine feeding in the mountain,
and they were calling on Him, that He might suffer them to enter into these, and He suffered them,
33 and the demons having gone forth from the man, did enter into the swine,
and the herd rushed down the steep to the lake and were choked.

Romans 10:7
or, 'Who shall go down to the Abyss,' that is, Christ out of the dead to be leading up.

A sketch would be;

The angel = Greek for messenger

the chain = the message (gospel); The gospel sent to the whole world.

the 1000 years = Satan bound from deceiving the elect. The saints rule over him. the 1000 years end = Satan loosed.

Note the 1000 years are not the kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when they end and he is loosed.

Satan loosed = the Post Christian era (we now live in = immanent return of Christ) the gospel message falls on deaf ears, the world assails the Church from all quarters ushering in the end.

Sounds good to me..............


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[DavidPT]

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

It seems to me, assuming Amil is correct about when the thousand years are meaning, Revelation 18:23 would have to be fulfilled during satan's little season after the thousand years. This at least would debunk the Preterist interpretation of Revelation 18:23, which is a plus. Because between Amil and Preterism, the latter is the less believable. If Preterists, too, agree that the thousand years are meaning in this age, how can they argue that Revelation 18:23 has already been fulfilled?

Compare the following----for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived----that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled

Seriously then, how can Revelation 18:23 get fulfilled apart from satan? How can----for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived----not include satan's involvement?

 

[Dave L]

Do you also believe satan can do things only God can do? Do you believe satan can be in multiple places at the same time? Isn't that exactly what Amil teaches?

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So which is it then? Is 1 Peter 5:8 currently true of satan? Or is Revelation 20:2-3 currently true of satan? Because if it's both, that clearly indicates satan must not be a created being after all, because only uncreated beings can be in multiple places at the same time. But if satan is a created being like most conclude, both passages above can't be true at the same time.

Satan is bound from deceiving by the preaching of the gospel. But God also uses him to bring wrath and judgement during this time.

 

[DavidPT]

Satan is bound from deceiving by the preaching of the gospel. But God also uses him to bring wrath and judgement during this time.

Let's try this then. Provide a real world example, where a lion, for instance, is chained up in a pit and shut up in it, and at the same time, this very same lion is walking about, seeking whom it may devour. If you can provide a believable real world example that illustrates this concept, I will then have to admit that maybe Amil is correct after all. Yet you and I and anyone else with a brain fully knows that you can't produce such an example because the idea is absolutely preposterous, that a lion could be bound and shut up in a pit, and at the same time, be walking about, seeking whom it may devour.

 

[Dave L]

Let's try this then. Provide a real world example, where a lion, for instance, is chained up in a pit and shut up in it, and at the same time, this very same lion is walking about, seeking whom it may devour. If you can provide a believable real world example that illustrates this concept, I will then have to admit that maybe Amil is correct after all. Yet you and I and anyone else with a brain fully knows that you can't produce such an example because the idea is absolutely preposterous, that a lion could be bound and shut up in a pit, and at the same time, be walking about, seeking whom it may devour.

Satan is a spirit. Physical laws do not apply. Satan is the agent God uses to bring sickness Acts 10:38. So he's active in the judgments depicted in Revelation while at the same time being totally bound by the gospel from deceiving.

 

[BABerean2]

Yet you and I and anyone else with a brain fully knows that you can't produce such an example because the idea is absolutely preposterous, that a lion could be bound and shut up in a pit, and at the same time, be walking about, seeking whom it may devour.

If the pit is big enough(like the size of our planet), and you are in the pit with him, you might think again about your statement.

Satan was cast down to the earth when he rebelled against God.
This is his "pit", at the present time.

Isa 14:11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.'
Isa 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
Isa 14:13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'
Isa 14:15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.


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[Calminian]

Let's try this then. Provide a real world example, where a lion, for instance, is chained up in a pit and shut up in it, and at the same time, this very same lion is walking about, seeking whom it may devour. If you can provide a believable real world example that illustrates this concept, I will then have to admit that maybe Amil is correct after all. Yet you and I and anyone else with a brain fully knows that you can't produce such an example because the idea is absolutely preposterous, that a lion could be bound and shut up in a pit, and at the same time, be walking about, seeking whom it may devour.

That's a really good point. Thanks. I believe some believe the Church age is the time Satan is bound in this pit, yet, as you say, this can't be true. He roams. The Millennial Kingdom will be a time when he is bound and the nations are not deceived. It'll be a time when he is not roaming.

 

[Calminian]

If the pit is big enough(like the size of our planet), and you are in the pit with him, you might think again about your statement....

Wow! The length people will go to hold a view. Reminds me of all the "alternative interpretations of Genesis" which render Scripture meaningless. You can make it mean whatever you like.

 

[BABerean2]

Wow! The length people will go to hold a view. Reminds me of all the "alternative interpretations of Genesis" which render Scripture meaningless. You can make it mean whatever you like.

Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine, that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War, have perfected the last sentence above...

Do you think Satan can be bound with a steel chain from the hardware store, and Satan is a giant flying lizard?

Do you think a spirit being like Satan can be held in a hole in the ground with a steel lid on it?

Did you notice "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?

Did you notice that the Sheep and Goat judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 leaves no mortals alive on the planet?

Did you notice that Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1?

Did you notice that Christ returns "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

If you are promoting the Premill doctrine, you must have cut the scripture found above out of your Bible to make it work.

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[Calminian]

Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine, that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War, have perfected the last sentence above...

Do you think Satan can be bound with a steel chain from the hardware store, and Satan is a giant flying lizard?

Do you think a spirit being like Satan can be held in a hole in the ground with a steel lid on it?

Did you notice "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?

Did you notice that the Sheep and Goat judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 leaves no mortals alive on the planet?

Did you notice that Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1?

Did you notice that Christ returns "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

If you are promoting the Premill doctrine, you must have cut the scripture found above out of your Bible to make it work.

.

Now you're just venting. A great argument was made. How can the devil be sealed in the bottomless pit and yet roaming at the same time? Your answer? I hate premillennialism! It's evil evil evil! Here's a video! That's a copout my friend. That's not an argument that's a tantrum. Deal with the argument.

 

[BABerean2]

Now you're just venting. A great argument was made. How can the devil be sealed in the bottomless pit and yet roaming at the same time? Your answer? I hate premillennialism! It's evil evil evil! Here's a video! That's a copout my friend. That's not an argument that's a tantrum. Deal with the argument.

Based on what Jesus said in Revelation 1:20, the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols.

Do you think the Two Witnesses are two men made of wood and metal, based on the following verse?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.


I already answered the question of how a beast in a pit can still harm you.
If it is a big pit and you are also in the pit, you are in trouble.
You do not have to like my answer, but now it is your turn to defend the premill doctrine.

It is understandable that proponents of the premill doctrine find fault with another viewpoint, because they cannot get their own viewpoint to work.

If you can show me how to make the premill doctrine agree with the rest of the New Testament, I will accept it.

.

 

[Bible2+]

Dave L said in post #19:

. . . the first resurrection begins with the new birth and culminates in the resurrection of the body on the last day.

Note that whereas there is indeed the non-physical resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 is referring only to physical resurrection (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the "first resurrection" will be the same, only-physical type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the still-future 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be non-physically resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all of the non-Christian dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that Christians will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until sometime after the still-future 1,000 years.

Also, the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 will be only-physical because it will not occur until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the resurrection of the Church which will occur at that time will be an only-physical resurrection, just as Jesus' resurrection on the third day after His death was an only-physical resurrection (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58, Philippians 3:20-21, Romans 8:23-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

Dave L said in post #19:

. . . the first resurrection begins with the new birth and culminates in the resurrection of the body on the last day.

Regarding the last day, note that in John 6:39-40 and John 12:48 the original Greek word (hemera: G2250) translated as the last "day" does not have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can refer figuratively to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the original Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they will not occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

At Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, only the Church will be physically resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the Church (of all times), including those in the Church who had been beheaded by the future Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Dave L said in post #19:

This includes the heavenly interlude of the souls described in Revelation 20.

Note that "souls" in the Bible can simply refer to people, including their bodies (Acts 27:37, Genesis 46:15). Also, the "souls", or people, in Revelation 20:4-6 include those people who will be physically resurrected sometime after having been beheaded by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") because they were Biblical Christians (Revelation 20:4).

Dave L said in post #19:

This includes the heavenly interlude of the souls described in Revelation 20.

Note that Jesus Christ will physically reign on the earth during the still-future 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6. For the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6, a time period commonly called the Millennium, will not begin until after Jesus' future, Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), when He will physically land on the earth and rule it from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-21). And because Jesus will reign physically on the earth during the Millennium, so will the physically resurrected Church. For the physically resurrected Church (of all times) will reign with Jesus during the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). And so in Revelation 5:10 the reference to the Church reigning in the future "on the earth" includes the Millennium. Also, in Revelation 2:26-29 the reigning of the Church physically over the nations can refer to the Millennium. There is no reason to exclude the Millennium from Revelation 5:10 or Revelation 2:26-29, just as there is no reason to exclude the earth from the Millennium in Revelation 20:4-6.

Also, the Church will reign forever on the future, New Earth, as in a new surface for the earth. For the Church will reign forever in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:5, Revelation 21:10 to 22:5), which will descend from heaven to the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-3, Revelation 21:10) sometime after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 21:3).

 

[Bible2+]

Calminian said in post #28:

[Re: Satan]

The Millennial Kingdom will be a time when he is bound and the nations are not deceived. It'll be a time when he is not roaming.

Exactly right.

During the 1,000 years, Satan will not be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14-15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). Therefore, the 1,000 years cannot have started yet.

 

[Bible2+]

BABerean2 said in post #30:

Did you notice "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18?

Note that Revelation 11:18 does not contradict Premil. For everyone not physically resurrected and judged at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Psalms 50:3-6, cf. Mark 13:27) will not be physically resurrected and judged until Revelation 20:11-15, which will not occur until sometime after the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected Church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), a time period commonly called the Millennium. Both of the resurrections and judgments can still occur within Revelation 11:18's "time". For the original Greek word (kairos: G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. For example, the same Greek word is used in 2 Corinthians 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people becoming Christians, which has been going on for thousands of years.

BABerean2 said in post #30:

Did you notice that the Sheep and Goat judgment of Matthew 25:31-46 leaves no mortals alive on the planet?

Regarding the sheep and goat judgment, note that Matthew 25:31 does not mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a does not mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to His Second Coming, at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will not occur until after the future Millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

For Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the nations will be finally-judged by their works at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, which will occur before the Millennium, He will finally-judge only those in the Church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when non-Christians of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent, at the Great White Throne Judgment, into the everlasting suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the Second Coming only the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become Christians during the future Millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient Christians inheriting the Kingdom of God the Father in New Jerusalem, the Father's house, on the future, New Earth (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2), as in a new surface for the earth.

BABerean2 said in post #30:

Did you notice that Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1?

Note that 2 Timothy 4:1 can include both of the future final-judgments. For Jesus Christ will finally-judge only the Church immediately at His future appearing (Second Coming) (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27, Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48), while non-Christians will not be finally-judged until the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). And the Great White Throne Judgment can be thought of as the third and final stage of the physical aspect of Jesus Christ's Kingdom, the first stage being His future, post-Second-Coming, 1,000-year (Millennial) reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21), and the second stage being after the 1,000 years, when the Gog/Magog rebellion, its defeat, and then an at-least seven-year aftermath will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Ezekiel 39:9b).

BABerean2 said in post #30:

Did you notice that Christ returns "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 indeed refers to Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming. But note that it will occur before the future Millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Also, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 does not say that "all" non-Christians will be killed by Jesus at His Second Coming. For some non-Christians will be left alive by Him (Matthew 24:39b-40), and they will enter the Millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). Also, the "vengeance" and "everlasting destruction" at the Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9) will not be the lake of fire and brimstone (of Revelation 21:8) for everyone killed by Jesus, just as "the vengeance of eternal fire" which came upon Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 1:7) was not the lake of fire and brimstone for those killed. For only the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone at Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:20). Other non-Christians will not be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone until after they have been physically resurrected and judged at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Between the Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3) and the Great White Throne Judgment will occur the Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6) and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

*******

BABerean2 said in post #32:

Based on what Jesus said in Revelation 1:20, the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols.

Note that nothing in Revelation 1:20 says or requires that the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols.

Instead, the book of Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it is unsealed (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it should not be difficult for Christians of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it is written: chronologically, and almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it which are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12). And Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

Just as Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the just-preceding Tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the Millennium in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal, and will begin right after Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when He will reign on the earth with the physically resurrected Church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11). After that, the events of Revelation 20:7 to 22:5 will occur literally.