WHAT IS THE BODY OF CHRIST?

[Arsenios]

Acts 22:20
And when the blood of Thy Martyr Stephen was shed,
I also was standing by,
and consenting unto his death,
and kept the raiment
of them that slew him.

Acts 9:4
"Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me?"

Col. 1:24
Who am now rejoicing in my sufferings for you,
and fill up that which is behind
of the afflictions of Christ
in my flesh
for His Body's sake,
which is the Church:

Christ incarnated and established His Body on earth...
Which is the Ekklesia of God...
For which Paul suffered, rejoicing...
Having previously persecuted Christ...
By participating in the stoning of Stephen...

What can we say the Ekklesia IS such that Paul is filling up "in his turn" that which is left behind of the afflictions of Christ in PAUL's own flesh, for the sake of the Body of Christ which is the Church?

eg - Is the Church a Mystical Body or a Fleshy Body?
Is it temporal or eternal?
Is it man or is it God?
How can the persecution of Stephen be the persecution of Christ?

How was Stephen Christ when he suffered?

Is Paul somehow Christ while he is suffering for the Body of Christ, the Ekklesia?

Does Christ now inhabit the earth in the bodies of the members of the Ekklesia,
which IS His Body, here and now, on earth?

Arsenios

 

[Hidden In Him]

Greetings, Arsenios!

The body is His flesh corporately, and directed by Him as its Head (Colossians 2:19). What I would say next, however, is controversial. For while many attest that the "body of Christ" simply consists of all who merely believe in Him, I find this actually corrupts the analogy. The analogy becomes reality only when His Spirit dwells within believers such that they are fully responsive to the Head, both corporately and individually, on a continual basis. Those in whom His Spirit does not dwell richly, whether they believe or not, cannot IMO be rightly said to constitute His "body" in any real or responsive sense of the word.

That having been said, I believe the analogy fit better during NT times, when the Spirit of God governed the actions of the church to a far greater extent.

Thanks for leaving me wide open to ridicule, LoL.

 

[Arsenios]

Greetings, Arsenios!

The body is His flesh corporately, and directed by Him as its Head (Colossians 2:19). What I would say next, however, is controversial. For while many attest that the "body of Christ" simply consists of all who merely believe in Him, I find this actually corrupts the analogy. The analogy becomes reality only when His Spirit dwells within believers such that they are fully responsive to the Head, both corporately and individually, on a continual basis. Those in whom His Spirit does not dwell richly, whether they believe or not, cannot IMO be rightly said to constitute His "body" in any real or responsive sense of the word.

That having been said, I believe the analogy fit better during NT times, when the Spirit of God governed the actions of the church to a far greater extent.

Thanks for leaving me wide open to ridicule, LoL.

Greetings yourself, your Hiddenness!

The Ekklesia existed in the Old Testament too...

So what can we say about the similarities to and the differences from the OT Ekklesia and that of the New Testament... There are not a few who think that Salvation in both eras are the same, and struggle with differences...

And if merely believing in Christ IS one's entry into the NT Ekklesia, then were the OT believers members of the Body of Christ Who IS the God of the Old Testament?

The issues are abundant here...

And the matter of the DEGREE of one's faith as constituting the membership of one's self in this Body (or not) should prove very hard to defend, I should think...

Because entry into the Ekklesia in OT times was by Circumcision...

Yet many were unfaithful, and did not make it through the wilderness and into the Promised Land...

So now, what is our equivalent corresponding to the OT Circumcision?

Or is there one?

Arsenios

 

[Hidden In Him]

Greetings yourself, your Hiddenness!

LoL.

The issues are abundant here...

Indeed.

And the matter of the DEGREE of one's faith as constituting the membership of one's self in this Body (or not) should prove very hard to defend, I should think...

I actually think the analogy is limited to how I defined it; not so much about the degree of one's "faith" as about whether they walk in obedience to the Spirit of God (Romans 2:13, Matthew 7:21). This then would include both OT and NT saints who truly conformed themselves to His will.

Because entry into the Ekklesia in OT times was by Circumcision...

Actually, it was obedience.

Keep talking. I'm just winging it, LoL. (taking it easy today).

 

[Arsenios]

LoL.

Nice mug - Your God-Father's God-son?

Indeed.

I thought so!

OK - So I did set you up just a tad!

I actually think the analogy is limited to how I defined it; not so much about the degree of one's "faith" as about whether they walk in obedience to the Spirit of God (Romans 2:13, Matthew 7:21). This then would include both OT and NT saints who truly conformed themselves to His will.

Doesn't this eliminate the tares from His Body?

Actually, it was obedience.

Was not Circumcision the actual entry of the Proselyte into the Ekklesia?
Wasn't that what the "Circumcision Parties" were all about coming in after Paul?
Wasn't the OT Ekklesia called "The Circumcision"?

Keep talking. I'm just winging it, LoL. (taking it easy today).

I am headed out to my day job...

You lucky dog you!

Arsenios

 

[Hidden In Him]

I am headed out to my day job...

You lucky dog you!

Arsenios

Actually, I think you've been saved by the bell, LoL.

Gimme a bit to respond to your tares question. I didn't actually get it yet.

 

[com7fy8]

Acts 22:20
And when the blood of Thy Martyr Stephen was shed,
I also was standing by,
and consenting unto his death,
and kept the raiment
of them that slew him.

Acts 9:4
"Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me?"

Jesus says that whatsoever we do to the least of His brethren we do to Jesus. So, it is simple; Paul was involved in the murder of Stephen; so Paul was persecuting Jesus, by persecuting Stephen.

I personally understand that this is because each child of God is connected spiritually to Jesus on the throne. Also, we have Jesus in us growing as our new inner Person. So, when we are living and loving as Jesus in us and someone attacks how Jesus is living and loving in us, they are attacking Jesus in us, as well as on the throne.

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, yes each child of God is "one spirit with" Jesus our Lord and Savior.

So, it is like if a predatory fish grabs a lure on a fisherman's line. The predatory fish is fighting the lure and the line, but therefore also the fisherman

And if you hurt someone's child, you also hurt the child's parents.

But, of course, a big difference from these images is how Jesus is not only at a distance, being persecuted, but Jesus is in us, plus He says, "I am with you always, even to the end of the age," in Matthew 28:20.

Col. 1:24
Who am now rejoicing in my sufferings for you,
and fill up that which is behind
of the afflictions of Christ
in my flesh
for His Body's sake,
which is the Church:

One important point, here, is that Paul was not suffering only because of how he was living for himself. Ones can live egotistically and be persecuted. And God can even arrange for them . . . including us His children . . . to be smitten somehow . . . so selfish stuff is thwarted, like He did with Solomon > 2 Samuel 7:14.

But if Paul is in God's grace, he is blessed and his suffering for the church can minister God's own grace to us the bride of Jesus. And He says he rejoices in this suffering, plus in 2 Corinthians 12:7-15 our Apostle Paul says he takes "pleasure" in trouble which is "for Christ's sake". This is because in God's grace we have the goodness of God with "pleasure" so better than and superior to any and all human fleshly pleasures

Christ incarnated and established His Body on earth...
Which is the Ekklesia of God...

Our Apostle Paul says "we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones," in Ephesians 5:30.

the Ekklesia of God...
For which Paul suffered, rejoicing...
Having previously persecuted Christ...
By participating in the stoning of Stephen...

What can we say the Ekklesia IS such that Paul is filling up "in his turn" that which is left behind of the afflictions of Christ in PAUL's own flesh, for the sake of the Body of Christ which is the Church?

eg - Is the Church a Mystical Body or a Fleshy Body?

The Body of Jesus is the Bride of Jesus, "of His flesh and of His bones."

Is it temporal or eternal?

After our resurrection, our bodies will be incorruptible. But now they are corruptible. 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 So, our temporal bodies will be replaced by eternal bodies.

Is it man or is it God?

Our present bodies are human, but created by God. And our future resurrected bodies will be glorified by God to become eternal and immortal.

How can the persecution of Stephen be the persecution of Christ?

My understanding is that since Stephen was Jesus Christ's servant, what people did to Stephen they were doing to Jesus on the throne; plus, Jesus was living and loving in Stephen, more and more as Stephen grew and matured in Christ. So, as much as people opposed what Jesus in Stephen was doing, they were opposing Jesus in Stephen.

How was Stephen Christ when he suffered?

Well, as much as Jesus had become Strephen's new inner Person (Galatians 4:19), I suppose you could say He was Christ. This would be because of how the Holy Spirit had transformed Stephen to be like Jesus in love > like I think 1 John 4:17 means.

Is Paul somehow Christ while he is suffering for the Body of Christ, the Ekklesia?

It could be Jesus in Paul >

"'I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.'" (Galatians 2:20)

Does Christ now inhabit the earth in the bodies of the members of the Ekklesia,
which IS His Body, here and now, on earth?

Galatians 2:20 > by means of how He has us loving >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

So, as we make sacrifices the way Jesus has us loving, we are sweetly pleasing to our Father, the way Jesus is. God can smell how we are like Jesus, even.

"For we are to God the fragrance of Christ" (in 2 Corinthians 2:14-15). So, as much as Jesus is growing in us, we smell like Jesus, to God ! ! !

 

[Arsenios]

Gimme a bit to respond to your tares question. I didn't actually get it yet.

Well, IF the entry into the Body of Christ is strictly merit-basedbased on one's Spiritual, say, attentiveness, then there could be no tares, because no one could remain there if they were to become inattentive - Same with sin...

Indeed, sin dumps Grace, and in a way one who is in the Body of Christ is not in it, at least in a certain way, when sinning, or because of sin... Yet tares do exist - Judas was the proto-type... A full Apostle with Apostolic Gifts and he betrayed Christ for money, because he was secretly carrying on a life of sin while discipling under Jesus to become an apostle...

Because we all sin, we are to live ongoing lives of repenting... Overcoming sin through repentance... This Faith is a struggle and a contest...

Arsenios

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well, IF the entry into the Body of Christ is strictly merit-basedbased on one's Spiritual, say, attentiveness, then there could be no tares, because no one could remain there if they were to become inattentive - Same with sin...

Ummm... I think there needs to be a delineation between being present among the body of Christ and actually being a member of it (Revelation 2:20-24).

one who is in the Body of Christ is not in it in a certain way when sinning, or because of sin... Yet tares do exist - Judas was the proto-type...

Not forever, anyway. Judas didn't last forever, nor did that bunch in Thyatira. So I'd again say they were both probably in it but never actually of it, if you know what I mean.

Because we all sin, we are to live ongoing lives of repenting... Overcoming sin through repentance... This Faith is a struggle and a contest...

I agree, only I think there again needs to be a delineation between those willing to be corrected (even if under discipline if necessary) and those who are not.

 

[Arsenios]

Jesus says that whatsoever we do to the least of His brethren we do to Jesus. So, it is simple; Paul was involved in the murder of Stephen; so Paul was persecuting Jesus, by persecuting Stephen.

That is exactly what I am asking about...

So are the least of the Brethren Christ? Is Christ walking around in the flesh today in the least of His Brethren? I mean, I know the Orthodox answer to this - It is Yes, but not the Person of Christ, for the person is that of the least, yet the least have Christ in them... The Risen Christ, the Ascended Christ, is the Christ Whom Saul met on the road to Damascus, who walked awhile with Cleopas and the others on the road and broke Bread with them - But He is in them, as they are in Him as members of His Body, the Ekklesia...

Can you see how hard it is to sort through it all in any kind of logical differentiation... And the more you think about it, the more you have to admire Paul saying: "The Mystery of the Faith is Christ within us..." Because this kind of a thought invites us into a contemplation of what it might men, and initiate us into a state of wonder that embraces the Truth of that Mystery without trying to verbally track it all down...

So that if the Brethren are the members of the Body of Christ, and Christ is their Head, then the proper understanding of the body of Christ should be organic - Even biological... A Living Organism is this Body with Christ as its Head... A Theanthropic Organism that IS Christ Whose Bodily members are those who are its persons...

And so the question then becomes: "How does one become a member of the Body of Christ?"
Does faith in God make one a member?
Were Old Testament Saints members?
Does believing that Christ is your Savior make you a member?
Does having a spiritual relationship with God make you a member?

The basic dilemma of a person in the world is, once he encounters God in his profound need for God, is "Now what do I do?" For he wants to secure himself to the God he has encountered and have Life in Him... In ordinary terms, he would encounter a man of God, and that man would direct him to a life of repentanct living in preparation for becoming a member of the Body of the God Whom that man is worshipping...

And we, looking on, know that this man wants to become a member of the Body of Christ and receive Life therein... So what must he do, or what must happen?

What IS this Body of Christ that he should enter it and become a member?

And THEN what?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Ummm... I think there needs to be a delineation between being present among the body of Christ and actually being a member of it (Revelation 2:20-24).


Not forever, anyway. Judas didn't last forever, nor did that bunch in Thyatira. So I'd again say they were both probably in it but never actually of it, if you know what I mean.


I agree, only I think there again needs to be a delineation between those willing to be corrected (even if under discipline if necessary) and those who are not.

Well, you remember those tares the Disciples found out about, and asked Christ if they should weed them out, and He said "No..." Do you remember why He said no? He said they had been sown by the evil one unawares, no question... But to leave them be, because by rooting them out, some may get rooted out with them... I cried when I read this the first time... I sure would have been weeded out... And rightfully so... But the members can be extremely weak, you see... The evil tares God will tend and send His Angels to clean out in the last Judgement...

Arsenios

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well, you remember those tares the Disciples found out about, and asked Christ if they should weed them out, and He said "No..." Do you remember why He said no? He said they had been sown by the evil one unawares, no question... But to leave them be, because by rooting them out, some may get rooted out with them... I cried when I read this the first time... I sure would have been weeded out... And rightfully so... But the members can be extremely weak, you see... The evil tares God will tend and send His Angels to clean out in the last Judgement...

Arsenios

Arsenios, I've actually always interpreted that parable as referring to the Gnostics, and that they would exist amongst the flock of God while secretly hoping to prey upon them as wolves in sheep's clothing (Jude 1:12-13). I think they were allowed to exist and intermingle among the body of Christ (as a group) for precisely the reason described in the parable: there existed the possibility of some who truly DID belong to Christ being plucked up with them if they were to suffer judgment immediately (possibly due to resentment, in being their friends or family, such as happened in the case of Korah).

But I'd still say the tares in that parable are a reference to those without, not those within. The concern was not with preserving the tares. It was with not pulling up the wheat.

 

[com7fy8]

Is Christ walking around in the flesh today in the least of His Brethren?

Yes, but younger members of Jesus are not mature in the Person of Jesus in them. So, it is not so obvious how Jesus is living in them.

you have to admire Paul saying: "The Mystery of the Faith is Christ within us..." Because this kind of a thought invites us into a contemplation of what it might men, and initiate us into a state of wonder that embraces the Truth of that Mystery without trying to verbally track it all down...

We grow in being in Jesus. A little child is a wonder, though the little child hasn't a clue But as we grow in Jesus, more and more we experience how He is, because we are loving the way He is loving. And we experience more and more constantly being in His guiding "continually" (Isaiah 58:11) in God's peace ruling in our hearts > Colossians 3:15.

the body of Christ should be organic - Even biological...

spiritually, especially . . . I would say

And so the question then becomes: "How does one become a member of the Body of Christ?"

Jesus says our Father draws a person to Jesus > John 6:44. And one hears God's word and is "joined to the Lord" so the person becomes "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17). And the person in this process of drawing and joining trusts in Christ > Ephesians 1:12. This is what I understand.

Does faith in God make one a member?
Were Old Testament Saints members?
Does believing that Christ is your Savior make you a member?
Does having a spiritual relationship with God make you a member?

All this is included, but one needs to be spiritually joined to Jesus so the person's nature is transformed by the Holy Spirit so we are perfected in God's own love > Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:17 < "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world."

What IS this Body of Christ that he should enter it and become a member?

And THEN what?

We are the Bride of Christ, for being "tenderhearted" (Ephesians 4:31-32) in family sharing and caring with our Heavenly Father and our Groom Jesus and one another. This body of Jesus is all people who are sharing in this loving, which is better than human and in the Holy Spirit's love > Romans 5:5.

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, but younger members of Jesus are not mature in the Person of Jesus in them. So, it is not so obvious how Jesus is living in them.

A salient and prescient point...

We grow in being in Jesus. A little child is a wonder, though the little child hasn't a clue But as we grow in Jesus, more and more we experience how He is, because we are loving the way He is loving. And we experience more and more constantly being in His guiding "continually" (Isaiah 58:11) in God's peace ruling in our hearts > Colossians 3:15.

spiritually, especially . . . I would say

I would say so too...

Jesus says our Father draws a person to Jesus > John 6:44. And one hears God's word and is "joined to the Lord" so the person becomes "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17). And the person in this process of drawing and joining trusts in Christ > Ephesians 1:12. This is what I understand.

I agree - The question I am exploring is not so much about the issues of growing in discipleship in the Body of Christ - eg about maturing - But it is more about what IS the Body of Christ that we should grow in it? You see, I am looking at the Acts of the Apostles, like in Acts 5:15-16
Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets,
and laid them on beds and couches,
that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by
might overshadow some of them.
There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem,
bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits:
and they were healed every one.

This, you see, is the Body of Christ in action... So where is this kind of Power operating today in the body of Christ? People are growing, maturing, falling away, returning, sinning, repenting, and on and on... All of this is always true, for it is about the ongoing struggle in every person's soul to contend for the Faith in one's self in denial of self and overcoming demonic principalities... It is the essence of Christian discipleship in the Body of Christ, yes?

And what I see is a lot of lack of success in this venture... I see it in myself, in others, and throughout Christendom... And what I look for is the existence of some people, just a few, who live holy lives walking in the Power of the Holy Spirit in Christ unto God... And they are hard to find... There are not a lot of them... They do not grow on trees... They are not common...

And IF we cannot find ANY of these, then why are we struggling? Why do we contend against evil? Why struggle if we know we will fail? Or that our struggle will not succeed...?

Yet I am telling you - These people do exist... The healing power of the shadow of Peter is not just a quaint story of 2000 years ago... Each era this Grace is specifically tailored to the needs present at any specific time...

The prayers of the Apostles carried the faithful in the Body of Christ 2000 years ago...
That is why Deacons were appointed...
Today it is the same - The Pillars of the Church are doing the same...

...One needs to be spiritually joined to Jesus so the person's nature is transformed by the Holy Spirit so we are perfected in God's Own Love...

Were not the Old Testament Saints "Spiritually Joined" to the Logos-Christ?

We are the Bride of Christ, for being "tenderhearted"...

Were not the Old Testament Saints "tenderhearted"?

What is the difference between those before and those after the Incarnation of Christ...

Between those in Christ and those not...

Did not the OT Saints still descend into Sheoul, the "house" of the dead?

Do those in Christ similarly do so?

Arsenios

 

[com7fy8]

The healing power of the shadow of Peter is not just a quaint story of 2000 years ago...

But Peter did what he did . . . Galatians 2:11-13 . . . after he was used to minister miracles, like that, I think. And before Peter denied Jesus three times, he did miracles and cast out devils. So, I am considering that miracles are not the measure of a deeply sound and mature Christian. So, if you focus on power playing, this can keep your attention away from what Jesus is bringing us to.

People with gifts can do very impressive things, but this does not mean they are good and perfect like their gifts are.

Paul says, "speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the Head---Christ" (in Ephesians 4:15. So, we minister for one another to grow up "in all things" of Jesus, not only certain gifts' capabilities. So, then, this is not only about fighting off evil.

Peter says, to wives >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

This beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit is "incorruptible". This, to me, means that nothing can corrupt it.

Plus it is so precious to God.

So, I would say we men need this, too. This keeps us from being corrupted by any evil spirit stuff (Ephesians 2:2), at all, plus this makes us pleasing to our Father . . . in His gentle and quiet love. We become interested in first pleasing God and answering first to Him, in any situation, not first answering to the evil or the nicer things. But first we rest in the LORD and enjoy Him and loving as family with one another while we also labor to minister for enemies to be adopted > Romans 8:15.

People are growing, maturing, falling away, returning, sinning, repenting, and on and on... All of this is always true, for it is about the ongoing struggle in every person's soul to contend for the Faith in one's self in denial of self and overcoming demonic principalities... It is the essence of Christian discipleship in the Body of Christ, yes?

And what I see is a lot of lack of success in this venture... I see it in myself, in others, and throughout Christendom...

There are two basic reasons, I would say, why people keep struggling and failing, instead of snuggling with God in His love.

One reason, of course, is how people have not gotten started with Jesus in learning from Him and finding "rest for your souls."" (Matthew 11:28-30)

Another reason is a person has not grown in Jesus like he or she can. It is clear that Peter was such, for a while, if he could do what Paul says he did > Galatians 2:11-13.

Some more practical reasons might include >

> too much focus on gifts, and on authority callings, instead of first mainly growing in Jesus while actively seeking how our Father corrects His children (Hebrews 12:4-11)

> pleasures and money

> too busy with justifying wrong religious ideas and practices > the wrong spirit of this keeps a person from thriving; so, then, it does make a difference which things a person believes and does; but what can hamstring someone the most is if the person is very busy with and attentive to and in active denial about wrong ideas and practices; being immature and ignorant is one thing, but promoting and pushing the wrong stuff can exercise a person away from all we can share in Jesus.

And what I look for is the existence of some people, just a few, who live holy lives walking in the Power of the Holy Spirit in Christ unto God... And they are hard to find... There are not a lot of them... They do not grow on trees... They are not common...

If you evaluate by miracles that Peter did, when he in truth still was immature enough to do what Paul says in Galatians 2:11-13 that he did . . . this is judging by outwardly impressive things. God looks at the heart.

And maybe we could say it takes one to know one. As we ourselves get more into obeying the LORD and growing in Jesus, then we can tell the difference about who else is really getting somewhere with God. It is like how you can study counterfeit money for your whole lifetime, yet never know what real money looks like.

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Living holy is not only fighting off tempting feelings and keeping ourselves from losing it and screaming at other people. It is about personally submitting to our Father and how He succeeds in deeply correcting us to share with Him in His holy love with His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness" > Hebrews 12:4-11.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

 

[com7fy8]

Were not the Old Testament Saints "Spiritually Joined" to the Logos-Christ?

There are different ideas about people before Jesus came.

But Paul uses Abraham as an example of faith for us Christians. I do not think God would use a sinner or unsaved person to be our example > Galatians 3 > Paul speaks of how "the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus". I do not think a person who is a sinner and unsaved could be so used to bless us who are children of God. And Genesis 22:18 shows how Abraham's obedience has helped to cause "all the nations of the earth" to be "blessed"

Hebrews chapter eleven uses early scripture people as our examples of faith. So, I think this means they were children of God.

And, by way, if we obey God, He will have us discovering others who He knows are really obeying Him.

Were not the Old Testament Saints "tenderhearted"?

What is the difference between those before and those after the Incarnation of Christ...

I would say David could function in a tenderhearted way, though not always. One example would be how he made sure all his men benefited from the spoils of a military campaign > 1 Samuel 30:21-25 < he stood up against "the wicked and worthless men", and did things in God's family caring and sharing way.

 

[Arsenios]

Arsenios, I've actually always interpreted that parable as referring to the Gnostics, and that they would exist amongst the flock of God while secretly hoping to prey upon them as wolves in sheep's clothing (Jude 1:12-13). I think they were allowed to exist and intermingle among the body of Christ (as a group) for precisely the reason described in the parable: there existed the possibility of some who truly DID belong to Christ being plucked up with them if they were to suffer judgment immediately (possibly due to resentment, in being their friends or family, such as happened in the case of Korah).

Whatever brand of spiritual crimes and misdemeanors they had, I think Christ was clearly telling his Disciples that harm could come to some of the faithful if they were weeded out...

But I'd still say the tares in that parable are a reference to those without, not those within. The concern was not with preserving the tares. It was with not pulling up the wheat.

Oh, perhaps so... That is a question to be answered by reference to our understanding of what exactly the Body of Christ actually IS, yes?

Judas, for instance, betrayed Christ, yet did he not have Apostolic Powers given from Christ? And Peter, having the same Apostolic Powers, denied Christ thrice... St. John Chrysostom, I believe it was, said that the road to Hell is paved with the skulls of Priests... And the only "legitimate" heresies came from within the Body of Christ... When someone outside this body has a false belief, it is not a heresy, however heretical it may be...

Christ permitted Judas his presence... We can ask: "Yes, but was Judas TRUELY Christ's Disciple?" And the answer is no, yet he WAS a disciple of Christ... It is always one's familiar whose betrayal is the most bitter, as David writes in the Psalm...

So our question still persists: "Where is the Skin of the Body of our Lord? Where does the Body of Christ begin and the world is left behind? How are we entered into the Body of Christ? And Who, exactly, enters us into His Body? And HOW, exactly, is that accomplished? And how has it historically been accomplished? And with what effect? How can it permit the presence of tares within it who are not truely a part of it?"

I mean, we get all manner of cancerous and other growths in our own bodies... Are these a kind of Typos of the Tares in Christ's Body now?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

But Peter did what he did . . . Galatians 2:11-13 . . . after he was used to minister miracles, like that, I think. And before Peter denied Jesus three times, he did miracles and cast out devils. So, I am considering that miracles are not the measure of a deeply sound and mature Christian. So, if you focus on power playing, this can keep your attention away from what Jesus is bringing us to.

All the Apostles had Power over unclean Spirits... Have you ever had an unclean spirit intruding into your soul that you could not repel? And if yes, have you ever encountered a man of God who cast it out from you? Or have you done so for others? Or have you repented FOR someone besides yourself?

Did not Paul say that the Kingdom of Heaven is measured in Power? Pretty much endlessly? As well as all of Scripture? The powers of darkness are not overcome without Heavenly Power...

2Tim 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear;
but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

So the matter is not "power playing" as you framed it, but walking in the Power of the Holy Spirit/God... And it requires a person to live in a certain way, as Paul wrote:

1Cor 4:9-16
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last,
as it were appointed to death:
for we are made a spectacle unto the world,
and to angels, and to men.
We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ;
we are weak, but ye are strong;
ye are honourable, but we are despised.
Even unto this present hour
we both hunger, and thirst,
and are naked, and are buffeted,
and have no certain dwellingplace;
And labour, working with our own hands:
being reviled, we bless;
being persecuted, we suffer it:
Being defamed, we intreat:
we are made as the filth of the world,
and are the offscouring of all things
unto this day.
I write not these things to shame you,
but as my beloved sons I warn you.
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ,
yet have ye not many fathers:
for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

So you see, where do you find such men as these who do these things and live this way?
How many do you know of?
How many have you met?
How many have you gazed into their eyes in their blessing?

People with gifts can do very impressive things,
but this does not mean they are good and perfect like their gifts are."

They were common in the times of the writing of the Bible, and discerning the Gifts of the Holy Spirit from those of demonic powers is important, but the Apostolic Calling of God is laden with Power from on High... Have you seen it in the 21st Century?

I mean, how many holy men and women do you know who have followed Paul in the manner of which he writes above, and who walk in the Power of the Apostles, as he warns us to be doing?

"...I warn you... (not having many Fathers)... Be ye followers of me..."

And he did this only as a member of the Body of Christ Which he served and for Which he suffered...

How did he enter this Body and what IS this Body into Which he entered and served and suffered?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There are different ideas about people before Jesus came.

Well, you had mentioned that one needs especially to be "Spiritually joined" to Christ... And in the Old Testament, the pre-incarnate Christ was joined to the OT Saints in great Power and mighty deeds in the Holy Spirit... And they lived in a very narrow and afflicted manner... And they all had great faith in God and lived in obedience to Him...

And with all this, they did not receive the Promise... [see Hebrews 11]

So now, we HAVE received the Promise...

What do we have that, say, the Prophet Elijah did not?

How are we joined to Christ that they were not?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I would say David could function in a tenderhearted way, though not always.

My only little observation was that tenderheartedness is not restricted to New Testament Saints... Prophet Elijah was very tenderhearted to the widow and her son, and not so much to the ministers of Baal...

Arsenios