What is the baptism of the holy spirit all about?

[zeke37]

[FONT=&quot]A typical series of misrepresentations: [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Where did I say that angels speak without understanding what they say? All I said is that the gift of tongues is a language presently unknown to humans, probably an angelic language, although any ancient human or divine language would qualify as well.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]you likened what you call unintelligible utterances, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]with angelic language[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am asking you to prove it biblically[/FONT]

we have the Bible.
we have angels speaking in the Bible.
so, prove you allegation.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]For reasons that I’ll explain shortly, angels are not experiencing the gift of tongues. [/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]then why are you likening your understanding of unintelligible utterances, to angelic language?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Thus in my view angels always do understand what they say.[/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]we all do[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]But I fail to see how this fact refutes my position. [/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]really? do angels communicate with men, in unintelligible utterances?[/FONT]
if not, then your point is refuted.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]To suggest, as you do, that if angels don’t have the gift of tongues, men can’t have it either, is absurd. [/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]i did not suggest that.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]unintelligible utterances are not a gift of God.[/FONT]

here's what I suggest...again...
I suggest that if angels don't communicate with us in unintelligible utterances,
then likening their language to unintelligible utterences of the charismatic churches "tongues"
is a bit silly, isn't it? no leg to stand on.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]It’s like saying that if angels don’t have the gift of healing, men can’t have it either. Huh? Can anyone make sense of this argument? [/FONT]

[/FONT]
again, that was not my argument.
my argument is that if we don't have examples of angels speaking in unintelligible utterances,
then your theory has no leg to stand on.

you are guessing

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Really, Zeke, it is my position that doesn’t make sense? [/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]well, of course not....it's worse than barbarian speech...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]it's pretty much the opposite of what Paul was talking about.[/FONT]

if you speak in unintelligible utterances
then that is what men hear. unintelligible untterances

if you pray in unintelligible utterances,
then that is what God hears too.
He does not "change it" to "perfect prayer/worship" like the dogma insists

how would you even know you were praying,
let alone anyone else.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]I gave you a rationale for my position. Here it is again. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The spirit is willing but the flesh weak. Generating things to say in prayer can be so tedious that the flesh tends to call it quits after a short time or, worse yet, rarely bothers to even get started. If God supplies the words of praise via the gift of tongues, He has effectively eased the task. You called this poppycock – but asserting is not arguing. [/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]way worse than poppycock...[/FONT]

-making void the Word of God about the Great Commission
-accepting and promoting pagan rituals as Christian ones
-talking away from your prayer life, instead of adding to it
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]MANY people struggle with finding words to say when they pray, especially over the long haul. How can a FACT of life be poppycock? [/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]we have no biblical example for your theory as a positive one[/FONT]
with regards to praying unintelligibly to God

I mean there are no actual biblical examples of folks doing what you claim.
[FONT=&quot]however, we have plenty of Biblical examples of praying intelligently.[/FONT]
and that is how Christ answered the disciples when they specifically asked Him, how to pray

as for a remedy to the problem of being to lazy or tired to think about what to pray about???

try this....meditate, fast, and communicate with God in an intelligent fashion

try it like this....

YHVH Our Father, Please show me the truth about "tongues" that Paul was speaking of in 1Cor14, from the Bible

is it about not thinking intelligently during prayer to YOU,
and having said utterances come out in an unintelligible fashion ?

or is 1Cor14 the proper rules on how we are to continue the Great Commission,
and get YOUR WORD into the tongues of all men

Please Lord, I don't want to teach your word falsely or promote a lie

I don't want to make void your Word
so I ask you to show me the truth, no matter how you do so.
everything is in your Will, I pray in Yahshua's Mighty Name
AMEN

 

[JAL]

[/font][/size]
[FONT=&quot]you likened what you call unintelligible utterances, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]with angelic language[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am asking you to prove it biblically[/FONT]

we have the Bible.
we have angels speaking in the Bible.
so, prove you allegation.


[FONT=&quot]then why are you likening your understanding of unintelligible utterances, to angelic language?[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]we all do[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]really? do angels communicate with men, in unintelligible utterances?[/FONT]
if not, then your point is refuted.


[FONT=&quot]i did not suggest that.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]unintelligible utterances are not a gift of God.[/FONT]

here's what I suggest...again...
I suggest that if angels don't communicate with us in unintelligible utterances,
then likening their language to unintelligible utterences of the charismatic churches "tongues"
is a bit silly, isn't it? no leg to stand on.


again, that was not my argument.
my argument is that if we don't have examples of angels speaking in unintelligible utterances,
then your theory has no leg to stand on.

you are guessing


[FONT=&quot]well, of course not....it's worse than barbarian speech...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]it's pretty much the opposite of what Paul was talking about.[/FONT]

if you speak in unintelligible utterances
then that is what men hear. unintelligible untterances

if you pray in unintelligible utterances,
then that is what God hears too.
He does not "change it" to "perfect prayer/worship" like the dogma insists

how would you even know you were praying,
let alone anyone else.


[FONT=&quot]way worse than poppycock...[/FONT]

-making void the Word of God about the Great Commission
-accepting and promoting pagan rituals as Christian ones
-talking away from your prayer life, instead of adding to it


[FONT=&quot]we have no biblical example for your theory as a positive one[/FONT]
with regards to praying unintelligibly to God

I mean there are no actual biblical examples of folks doing what you claim.
[FONT=&quot]however, we have plenty of Biblical examples of praying intelligently.[/FONT]
and that is how Christ answered the disciples when they specifically asked Him, how to pray

as for a remedy to the problem of being to lazy or tired to think about what to pray about???

try this....meditate, fast, and communicate with God in an intelligent fashion

try it like this....

YHVH Our Father, Please show me the truth about "tongues" that Paul was speaking of in 1Cor14, from the Bible

is it about not thinking intelligently during prayer to YOU,
and having said utterances come out in an unintelligible fashion ?

or is 1Cor14 the proper rules on how we are to continue the Great Commission,
and get YOUR WORD into the tongues of all men

Please Lord, I don't want to teach your word falsely or promote a lie

I don't want to make void your Word
so I ask you to show me the truth, no matter how you do so.
everything is in your Will, I pray in Yahshua's Mighty Name
AMEN

You're not fooling anyone with this pretense of a response, for example the repeated claim that my position is refuted if the angels always speak intelligibly. If anything, the opposite true, based on the logic I presented in my last post. My position is actually bound up with the idea that they always DO speak intelligibly, for reasons I made clear. For you now to groundlessly claim that I need them to speak unintelligibly to hold my position seems to be the height - rather the abyss - of cheap debating tactics, misrepresentation, and intellectual dishonesty.

You didn't address the actual logic or substance (or scriptures) of any of my arguments.

[/font][/size]
[FONT=&quot]you likened what you call unintelligible utterances, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]with angelic language[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am asking you to prove it biblically[/FONT]

I didn't "liken" the gift of tongues to angels speaking. On the contrary, I explicitly CONTRASTED it with how angels speak. Angels don't have the gift of tongues, they speak with understanding/intelligibly. I was clear on that. I merely said that the gift of tongues - when given to men - is a matter of men speaking any language unknown to their generation, whether an ancient human language, or an angelic language, or some divine language. Take your pick. Since I gave you three choices, it is utter intellectual dishonesty for you to suggest that my position stands or falls on the dynamics of how angels speak. Shame on you.

 

[zeke37]

[FONT=&quot]part 2[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

And to show you that this is not senseless babbling, I gave you the analogy of a Russian child, here it is again:

[/FONT]

wow, I guess you really don't want me to read that Russian child analogy.
it's not here again. lol. you say here it is, and then don't post it.

either post it or please zip it about the Russian analogy


[FONT=&quot]

Now here’s a second rationale. Why doesn’t God speak to us clearly all the time? Never once in my life has God spoken to me like He spoke to Moses. Why? God Himself gives us an explanation in two places. The first is Numbers 12:6-8 where He says that He speaks to Moses in plain language due to Moses’ long-standing faithfulness. The second clue is where He warns Moses that if His Presence travel with Israel, His anger would likely destroy them. Huh? Isn’t God’s Presence everywhere? Yes, but what He’s referring to is a fairly clear REVELATION of His Presence, a clear revelation of Himself. The more clear the revelation, the greater the judgment if we disobey. Think about it. We all disobey, right? But suppose God appeared to you tomorrow face to face (in a way convincing you it was the true God), gave you a direct order, and you STILL disobeyed – NOW it is tantamount to spitting directly in His face. His anger might put you to death at that moment.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So here’s my point. Revelation has levels of clarity and God keeps us on the lower levels to spare us from judgment, until our faithfulness graduates us to higher levels. Read Numbers 12:6-8 carefully if you doubt this idea of levels of clarity. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Let’s now apply this to the Corinthian epistle. Which is a higher level of revelation?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]An angelic tongue that I do not clearly understand.[/FONT]

again, you must demonstrate that such a thing exists, within biblical example.

and you can't because when angels speak, men hear and understand

each time you mention angelic tongue as being the Gift of Tongues (unintelligible utterings),
you have no basis to do so at all.

it's not called the Gift of unintelligible angelic utterances
it's not called the Gift of unintelligible prayer utterings
it's called the Gift of Languages

and somehow, you guys and gals have gotten it into your heads,
that the Gift of Languages, isn't to edify men, lol.
but instead to praise God in unintelligible utterances.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot](2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A prophecy in a language that both I and the audience clearly understand.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Prophecy is a greater revelation. Therefore if God is currently ranking me on a level LOWER than prophecy, He would accordingly tend to give me revelations that I don’t CLEARLY understand – and an angelic tongue would be a perfect fit. It’s not TOTALLY unintelligible because there are levels of understanding, as I have said repeatedly, [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]most practicing charismatics would tend to disagree with you on that, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]as most say there is no understanding at all.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]specifically in the Russian child analogy I DO understand that I am speaking words of praise, but I don’t CLEARLY understand the exact words that I am saying.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

again, you must repost it, for me to have even a clue what you are talking about.

if you don't know what you are saying,
how would you know if you are praising God or not?
you could be cursing Him and not know it

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Based on the above logic, [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]you did not provide logic[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]prophecy is a greater gift than tongues. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]that's because Paul outright says it in the chapter[/FONT]
not by any logic you have presented.

he explains, it would be much easier if we all each speak
in all the tongues of men,
but we don't
so he would rather we make sure that what we do say,
can become prophesy to them as it is with us who believe.
so they have to understand the words spoken.

if a translator is needed, use on.
if none is available, wait for a better opportunity to edify

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]This is precisely why Paul numbers the gifts at 12:28-30, ranking them numerically and putting prophecy higher than tongues and concluding, “Desire earnestly the GREATER gifts”. Paul then repeats this ranking at 14:5 “[/FONT]The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,[c] unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.”
[FONT=&quot]What doesn’t make sense about YOUR position is why the gift of tongues is ranked lower than the gift of prophecy. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

how many times must I explain my position to you?
I am not speaking unintelligible utterances, to you,
so you should be able to get it. but u don't.

God would say...

20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
​

you can't hear me, in the same way.

anything that becomes prophesy to them listening,
is the greater.

even that verse I just quoted.

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

no matter what "tongue" of men you speak the prophesy to them in, they need to understand it

all those Psalms and prophesy's about the Messiah....so cool

we are to edify the new ones in those prophesy's

so if you need a translator to make it so, then do so, or zip it

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]A prophecy is a message from God understood by the speaker and the audience. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]a prophesy from God is also the already written word of God, about future or past events[/FONT]

Paul is teaching about us sharing the fulfilled ones with others, so they can believe too,
not a special private message from God that unintelligible utterers only, are privy to

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
​

prophesying to the church, what is already written about Christ,
is exactly Paul's point.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

[FONT=&quot]16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Since you say that the gift of tongues is all that PLUS the ability to speak in a new language to preach the gospel, then the gift of tongues should rank HIGHER than prophecy. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]not at all.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]tongues is languages of men....[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]it's much more important to preach the Good News to them [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]than it is for you to talk about the weather with them.[/FONT]

God gifted folks to further His plan, not to be full of yourself.

when your words are understood, then your words can become prophesy to them.

and that is the whole point...and why prophesy is greater than tongues.

iow, you could be gifted in tongues/languages,
but if you are not able to communicate your message,
it's in vain because you are not teaching them any prophesy

you do realize of course that in Paul's example of prophesy,
he is speaking of the already written prophesy's in the Word,
that were already fulfilled by Christ, proving He is Messiah
like Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, and Pentecost


he's not speaking about someone at church,
hearing unintelligible utterances,
and then claiming an interpretation of said utterances.

"give me your money now or else"
"do thus or thus and thus, or else"

that is completely ridiculous,
and should immediately show the state of your current dogma on tongues
as being completely wrong in everyway

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]On that assumption Paul should have written 14:1 like so, “Follow the way of love and desire earnestly spiritual gifts, especially the gift of tongues.” Here again, zeke, we see that it’s YOUR position that cannot make sense of Paul’s words. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

brother, please don't project what you assume is my position, into Paul's words.
you look foolish, because that is not my position.

I have again spent this post detailing my position.

 

[zeke37]

part 3

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Now perhaps you’d like to contend that 1Cor 14 is not really a discussion of the gift of tongues. Hermeneutically that would be an unlikely claim in view of the opening verses ostensibly contrasting the gift of prophecy with the gift of tongues.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

actually, the GIFT of tongues is never mentioned in 1Cor14 as that phrase at all.
the opening verses do not mention the "gift" of tongues at all, by that name
kinda weird if you think the chapter is about it, don't ya think.

you only assume it

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]14:2, “He who speaks in tongues speaks not to men but to God, no man understands him, he utters mysteries with his spirit.” This one verse challenges your position in three ways because:[/FONT]
[/FONT]

speaks in tongues, not gift of tongues

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot](1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It asserts that tongues is a message to God, not to men.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]it asserts that you were supposed to edify men by your words,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]but you blew it and didn't....[/FONT]
just continue reading the chapter to easily see that point.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]An angelic tongue articulating words of praise to God is a perfect fit here. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]no it is not. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Angels are always understood by men when they speak.[/FONT]
your dogma is that "it" is never understood by men when "it" is spoken.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Your view of tongues as an attempt to speak to men contradicts this verse.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

no it does not.
Paul is being sarcastic, it's a negative, and you think it's a positive.
that shows how far gone your whole dogma is.

Paul repeats this negative example over and over again,
giving both the negative and the positive way to do things
in the form of examples.

speaking to God, speaking to the air, speaking to yourself,
are all the same negative example....
if you try to teach anyone in a tongue they don't understand,
then you are speaking to yourself only, to the air only, to God only..
and as the chapter clearly shows, the point is to edify the audience...
not God, yourself or the air

all you have to do is continue to read,
to see that it is an attempt to edify men.
the whole chapter is about just that very thing.
edification of the Body
lol

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
​

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot](2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It asserts that NO ONE understands the words. This challenges your assumption that an interpreter may be present who knows the language spoken. In my view, we have to get the interpretation directly from God because none of us understands angelic languages.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

since the entire chapter is about edifying the audience,
the speaker would obv. understand his own words.
the 'no one" is within the audience

that's why Paul uses the same kinds of repeated examples...
barbarian speech, speaking to the air, speaking mysteries,
vs
words easy to understand, knowing when to say Amen
etc, etc, etc.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot](3) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]It classifies the message as a mystery. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]it tells us that, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]what the speaker understand to be true about prophesy,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]is mysterious to the audience, because of a language barrier[/FONT]
just continue reading...don't stop on one verse.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]In the Bible, the term ‘mystery’ isn’t a need-translator-oriented concept. It’s rather geared towards information that men are unable or unlikely to realize unless God supernaturally intervenes to uncover/reveal it. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]really? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]well, this is a bit off of Paul's point about [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]language barriers [/FONT][FONT=&quot]causing the speaker's words [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]to be mysterios to the audience [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]but.....[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]the mystery's in the bible, that are named mystery's, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]are indeed already revealed in the bible[/FONT]

gentiles being grafted in, Raptured folk not tasting death etc.

now, back to 1Cor14....I completely reject your theory
about the speakers words being a mystery to even himself.
completely.

that does not follow the chapter's points at all.
I have already gone over those points multiple times.
it's all about a speaker edifying the audience

 

[zeke37]

part 4

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]An angelic tongue would be a perfect fit for this. Here again, your view simply doesn’t fit well with Paul’s words. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]again, you have no basis that 1Cor14's tongues are angelic language[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]nor do you have a basis for calling the unintelligible utterings of charismatics, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]angelic tognues/languages[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]no basis at all.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Given the logic above, [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]well, you have not shown any logic at all.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]you have shown the opposite of logic.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]it would not make sense for God to give angels the gift of tongues in the human era. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]what are you talking about....lol[/FONT]
let's look at Bible facts, instead of your wild hypothesis

do angels talk to men in the bible? yes or no?
yes.

now, in any of those examples,
do angels speak to men with unintelligible utterances? yes or no.?
no.

do angels have a message from God to impart to men,
so they make darn sure the men receive it intelligently
yes or no?
yes!

so, by what right do you call unintelligible utterances, angelic tongues?

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Why not? Because angels are holy, their holiness is now sealed by God (as ours will be in heaven). [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]there are good angels and bad angels in the bible[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]They CANNOT sin nowadays (although in times past they did have that much free will). [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]tell that to Satan and his angels[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]There’s no reason to keep them on low level of revelation/clarity since there is no chance of judgment. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]again, angels in the bible had a message to give, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]and they do[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]and you can be sure the ones hearing it, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]understood it in their own tongue[/FONT]

it did not come out inuntelligble-ly,
it did not need interpretation

you have no point at all.

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]They always get clear revelation, as Jesus said, “The angels always see the face of my Father in heaven.” But it’s possible that they experienced the gift of tongues prior to the human era, I just don’t know (and don’t much care). [/FONT]
[/FONT]

lol.

[FONT=&quot]Asserting is not proving. [/FONT]
Who said tongues is only for self-edification? When there is an interpreter, it edifies the church. When there is no interpreter, it only edifies oneself (verse 28). Here again, you pretend to ‘refute’ me by repudiating something OTHER than my position.

you completely misunderstand Paul's intent.
I will just be repeating my self from here on out, I fear.

remember that I already understand your dogma.
you have told me nothing "new"
I don't need to misrepresent you, nor want to in any way.
that would be counter productive.

so get over it.

how else do you define self edifying?

Jal>> Suppose I speak to some people in my own native tongue which they don't understand. (I really don't think anyone would make a habit of doing that - your whole position is INCREDIBLY far-fetched - but you seem convinced this is what the Corinthians were in the habit of doing.

[FONT=&quot]zeke>> I can't, for the life of me, understand why you find this hard to fathom.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]have you ever heard of Christian missions across seas?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]ever? how do you think they spread the Good News?[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Is that your defense? [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]my defense? lol.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]that's Paul's whole point and reason for the chapter.[/FONT]
missionaries just happen to follow his rules in 1Cor14, properly

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]You pretend as though it’s an obvious resolution to my objection, despite the glaring weaknesses. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]there is no glaring weakness...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God said the Word will go to all the tongues of men,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]regardless if you disagree [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]that Paul was addressing how to do this or not in 1Cor14[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]The missionaries in question either:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Have a gift from God to speak in the languages of the natives. In this case it would be far-fetched to conceive of them speaking their own language instead.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot](2) [FONT=&quot]Or they lack this gift. If they lack the gift, they would seek a translator. It’s far-fetched to suggest that they would idiotically speak continually a language that no one understands unless they are trying to teach the natives their own language for lack of an interpreter.[/FONT][/FONT]
[/FONT]

they'd prob be speaking their own native tongue, English, French, what ever,
and having their words translated into the native populations tongue

that is Paul's point.

or maybe, if God so chose,
He could gift them in languages so they would not need the aid of a translator

like Paul.

either way, what ever they say to the crowd, can, once understood,
become prophesy to them, as it is with the one that speaks
[FONT=&quot]and thus they have the chance at joining the Body[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Asserting is not proving. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]you have not proven your points at all, not a once[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]You’ve done nothing to demonstrate that Paul is addressing the Great Commission as the primary concern in 14. [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]really? then you can't read very well[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the whole chapter addresses it[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]He’s talking about regulating church services, [/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]no he's not...you act like there was a church on every corner.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]how many 100's of square miles do you think were in between Corinth and the next closest church?[/FONT]

think hard. 2000 years ago....

[FONT=&quot]

“In the church I would rather five words to instruct others, than 10,000 words in a tongue.” Yes, he does mention that if an unbeliever happens to come in to the service, prophecy is better than tongues, but evangelism is hardly the primary theme of the chapter.

[/FONT]
evangelism is absolutely the main theme of the chapter.
again, HOW can you say otherwise, except by indoctrinization

lol

the whole chapter is about edifying the assembly.

 

[JAL]

You can stop posting any time now, Zeke, because I'm simply not going to continue reading more of your nonsense. Anyone who assumes that missionaries are so stupid that they persistently evangelize in languages the audience cannot understand - with no good reason for doing so - is not worth debating with.

In all these last posts of yours it's hard to find anything substantial in your statements. The following is a rare exception:

part 3

actually, the GIFT of tongues is never mentioned in 1Cor14 as that phrase at all.
the opening verses do not mention the "gift" of tongues at all, by that name
kinda weird if you think the chapter is about it, don't ya think.

you only assume it

Actually I didn't assume it, and I still don't. It's just that neither you nor anyone else has provided convincing evidence that Paul shifted gears. Chapter 12 is about spiritual gifts, notably prophecy. Chapter 13 has a lot to say about prophecy and the gifts as well. Chapter 14 has a lot to say about prophecy, so it looks like he's still talking about spiritual gifts. Verse 1 is a clear reference to the gifts, and then later in 14, "Since you are zealous for the gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church."

So I am not assuming anything. The reality is that the burden of proof is on you that tongues is not one of the gifts under discussion in 14, given the surrounding context. You haven't met that burden. Moreover, your position has too many weaknesses of its own to boot.

In these last couple of posts you couldn't be more self-contradictory. You asserted of chapter 14:
(1) The entire chapter is about evangelism/Great Commission,winning the lost.
(2) The entire chapter is about edifying the assembly of believers.

Sunlover is correct. You're a moving target, you keep changing your position in an effort to avoid being refuted. Your next "move" will likely be: "both 1 an 2 are true." It is a sorry hermeneutics that cannot discern the emphasis of a particular chapter.

I don't have more time for your nonsense and, even if I did, I don't think I'd waste it here.

 

[rockytopva]

The revival trail... Know your spiritual heritage!



A. John Wycliffe - Got it all started when he translated the bible to English around 1350 BC.
B. John Bunyan - Continued the paths for revival with his Pilgrims Progress.
---City of Destruction - The place where faith was awakened in the Pilgrim
---The Wicket Gate - The place where he became Born Again
---The Interpreters House - The place of Sanctification - The burden falls off at the sight of the cross
---Difficulty Hill - Some people have a difficult time arriving at the Witness of The Spirit
---The Porters House - The place of the Baptism in the Holy Ghost
C. John Wesley - Broke away from complicated Sardisean doctrine with these Methods
---Justification - We are justified by faith
---Salvation - Accepting Jesus in the heart
---Sanctification - With a sweet spirit and love - Thus the launch of the Philadelphia church age
---Witness of the Spirit - Pentecostals would accept this with tongues
D. William Seymour - Continued the Wesleyan teachings with the tongues as evidence of the Witness of the Spirit
1 . Outer Gates - Faith - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Romans 3:28
2. The Alter - Salvation - Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: - 1 Cor 5:7
3. The Laver - Sanctification - Conforming oneself to some righteous believers standard.
***The Inner Temple = Inner Sanctification***
4. The Table of Shewbread - The reading and meditation of God's word.
5. The Lampstand - Acquiring the proper E/c2... E (energy, motivation) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)
6. The Alter of Golden Incense - Prayer and praise - It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the Lord; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the Lord, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the Lord; - 2 Chronicles 5:13
***The veil is what divides the Inner temple from the Holy of Holies***
7. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit - The Ark of the Covenant - For sixteen years Smith Wigglesworth preached that he had received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, when in fact he had received a direction of the spirit. He explains that it was though he was on the outside of the Garden of Eden looking in. But after he received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, it was as though he had regained access to the Garden of Eden, with the Holy Spirit serving as the fiery sword keeping evil out while he tasted of the good of the Lord. The anointing enabled him to regain the paradise lost so many years ago. Though his title was that of a plumber, the baptism and anointing of the Holy Ghost enabled him to launch a world wide ministry! It is the delight of God to pick up nobodies and fill them with his power! In which, William Seymour, the architect of this doctrine issues the following warning... “Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.”


I Photoshopped this image, penned by William Seymour a tad...

E. Smith Wigglesworth - Claimed Sanctification around 1893. The Holy Spirit began the Azusa Street revival, led by William Seymour, around 1906. and by 1907 Smith Wigglesworth claimed to have received the Baptism with tongues. That revival spread quickly!

 

[zeke37]

You can stop posting any time now, Zeke, because I'm simply not going to continue reading more of your nonsense.

lol...whatever Bro.

Anyone who assumes that missionaries are so stupid that they persistently evangelize in languages the audience cannot understand - with no good reason for doing so - is not worth debating with.

again, your project what you mistakenly think I said....errantly.

The evangelizing of the world had to start somehow.

the first missionaries were speaking their own tongue,
and getting their words translated to the audiences tongue

that practice continues even today

in fact, in multi-lingual assemblies, here in Canada and I'm sure abroad,
they still follow the same set of rules and procedures,
so they can communicate with everyone in the assembly

Thelka just testified to that truth a few pages ago

In all these last posts of yours it's hard to find anything substantial in your statements. The following is a rare exception:

Actually I didn't assume it, and I still don't. It's just that neither you nor anyone else has provided convincing evidence that Paul shifted gears. Chapter 12 is about spiritual gifts, notably prophecy. Chapter 13 has a lot to say about prophecy and the gifts as well. Chapter 14 has a lot to say about prophecy, so it looks like he's still talking about spiritual gifts. Verse 1 is a clear reference to the gifts, and then later in 14, "Since you are zealous for the gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church."

So I am not assuming anything. The reality is that the burden of proof is on you that tongues is not one of the gifts under discussion in 14, given the surrounding context. You haven't met that burden. Moreover, your position has too many weaknesses of its own to boot.

of course i'll disagree with you

In these last couple of posts you couldn't be more self-contradictory. You asserted of chapter 14:
(1) The entire chapter is about evangelism/Great Commission,winning the lost.
(2) The entire chapter is about edifying the assembly of believers.

of course it is. both.
how many times have I posted the scriptures that confirm that very truth
where do you think the Great Commission was taking place most of the time in the beginning?

one of the places was right in the few churches that here were.
plus, that's where the believers came to meet and share,
so that is where the rules for the Great commission (most of chapter 14) were dealt out

Sunlover is correct. You're a moving target, you keep changing your position in an effort to avoid being refuted.

I've never changed my position once.

Your next "move" will likely be: "both 1 an 2 are true." It is a sorry hermeneutics that cannot discern the emphasis of a particular chapter.

pfffffff. lol.
ya, it can't be true 'cause you say so....right...

I don't have more time for your nonsense and, even if I did, I don't think I'd waste it here.

s'ok with me Bro.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
​

 

[zeke37]

anyone else?