What is the anti-Christ power?

[Revealing Times]

1Th 4:13　 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.　 1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.　 1Th 4:15　 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1Th 4:16　 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.　(Normally the word "descend" means to come down.) 1Th 4:17　 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.　 1Th 4:18　 Therefore comfort one another with these words.　

REALLY......This just proves you are not able to comprehend that which you read it seems.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We understand the scriptures, they are very plain. Paul wanted the Thessalonians to understand about their dead loved ones in Christ, that they were not dead, but waiting to live again with Jesus Christ (sleeping). You seem to think this is some great revealing or something it isn't. Once again you have confused the Rapture of the Church with the Second Coming. Of course you do this at every turn, then act as of you proved something, when is it gong to register that they are SEPARATE EVENTS !!

For Jesus descends and calls the Dead in Christ to Arise, then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS (SKY) to live with Jesus FOREVER. What part of this tells you Jesus comes to earth to rule? Not ONE PART OF IT, which is why you had to add that caveat about descending means to come down to earth, WHICH IS NOT TRUE. The word says we meet them in the SKY, and Remain with Jesus forever more, thus is the Rapture. The same as 1 Corinthians chapter 15 is the Rapture. This is what happens to the Dead on Christ and those ALIVE IN CHRIST....We are Raptured to Heaven. That is what makes Revelation chapter 19 possible. We are in Heaven, we Marry the Lamb. We return WITH JESUS on White Horses, and the Anti-Christ and his minions are STILL ON EARTH. But 60 mules couldn't make you admit.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Again, this scripture you quoted below, means the opposite of what you think it means !!!!!!!

1 Thessalonians 5
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

{{{ The Wrath of God (Day of the Lord) will comes like a THIEF....This is NOT THE RAPTURE !! But the Day of the Lord or Gods Wrath. Look at the next verse.......For when THEY SHALL SAY !!! Catch that? THEY......When they say Peace and Security then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION (Gods Wrath = Day of the Lord). }}}


4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

{{{ BUT....BUT....BUT you are not in DARKNESS (EVIL/SINS) that that day should OVERTAKE YOU, because you are children of the LIGHT (JESUS CHRIST) and not of the DARK (SATAN)....Therefore let us not SLEEP, BUT let us be alert and stay away from EVIL/SINS and stay in Christ Jesus, who will deliver us from that DAY OF (SEE BELOW) WRATH. }}}

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

{{{ So we should put on CHRIST or the Breastplate of Faith and Love, an helmet of the hope of SALVATION !! BECAUSE, NOW WATCH THIS........WATCH !! God has not appointed us unto WRATH !! (Day of the Lord) but to obtain SALVATION IN Jesus Christ !! ....................This passage means just the opposite of what you imply. This is about the WRATH OF GOD coming on the heathen in a FLASH or in a Instant of time...BOOM...Suddenly. It has nothing to do with the Church, who is IN CHRIST JESUS (The Light) and who will be in Heaven with Jesus when this WRATH HAPPENS !! We are not on EARTH. }}}

 

[BABerean2]

We are Raptured to Heaven.

You have turned "descend from heaven" into "raptured to Heaven".

1Th 4:16　 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.　

This change would be a corruption of the Word of God.

We see in the link below how Grant Jeffrey was willing to cut and paste to make the doctrine work.

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

 

[Revealing Times]

You have turned "descend from heaven" into "raptured to Heaven".

1Th 4:16　 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.　

This change would be a corruption of the Word of God.

We see in the link below how Grant Jeffrey was willing to cut and paste to make the doctrine work.

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

And you are still trying to parse words and passages to fit your understanding, but it doesn't work.

6 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We go up, to meet the Lord.

Revelation 19 prove a PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE. And there is nothing you can say that changes this fact.

 

[Another Lazarus]

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Its cleary seen that we shall meet the Lord in the air above the cloud, which means Jesus doesnt touch His feet on the ground when He fetch the Wise virgins.

But Berean choose to live in the tribulation and refuse whatever explanation, its his right. We pray for him to be strong in facing the Grief Tribulation because they shall be beheaded.

May Jesus bless you all HalleluYAH

 

[BABerean2]

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We go up, to meet the Lord.

Revelation 19 prove a PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE. And there is nothing you can say that changes this fact.

You are correct in the fact that the dead in Christ go up to meet the Lord in the air and we will be with Him forever. Those alive at the time will also be changed.

We are released from the force of gravity after our resurrection from the dead and we do go up to meet our Savior on His way down. His love for us and our love for Him will be so strong that it will overcome gravity.

Nothing in the passage says anything about going back to the third heaven for seven years.

You are attempting to disconnect the event in chapter 4 from the timing of the event in chapter 5, which occurs on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.
Why are you doing this?
Because this reveals that it is a Second Coming event.

The time of the judgment of the dead is found in Revelation 11:18, which is right after the 7th trumpet.
Read John 5:27-30 to hear Christ's description of the resurrection and judgment of the dead.

1 Thessalonians chapter 5 is directly connected to Revelation 19, which occurs at Armageddon.

1Th 5:1　 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.　
1Th 5:2　 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.　

Rev 16:15　 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."　
Rev 16:16　 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

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[Revealing Times]

You are correct in the fact that the dead in Christ go up to meet the Lord in the air and we will be with Him forever. Those alive at the time will also be changed.

We are released from the force of gravity after our resurrection from the dead and we do go up to meet our Savior on His way down. His love for us and our love for Him will be so strong that it will overcome gravity.

Nothing in the passage says anything about going back to the third heaven for seven years.

Nothing says Jesus will come down after we meet him either, and its not our love, which is great, its the command of the Holy Spirit which calls us forth, and we leave our Bodies, so the spirit man goes forth, our flesh can not inherit the Kingdom of God. We have to read the bible and ask God for discernment in all things. Revelation 19 tells you about the Seven Year Period we spend in Heaven, if you will read it and use common sense. We are IN HEAVEN we Marry the Lamb, then come back with Jesus to defeat the Anti-Christ who is still on earth. Now you explain to me how that can happen if we meet Jesus in the air and com back down to earth !!

You are attempting to disconnect the event in chapter 4 from the timing of the event in chapter 5, which occurs on the Day of the Lord, when He comes as a thief.
Why are you doing this?
Because this reveals that it is a Second Coming event.

It does no such thing !! You don't understand. 1 Thessalonians 4 is about the rapture. 1 Thessalonians 5 is about the Day of the Lord. And the Day of the Lord has nothing to do with the Rapture, even if the Rapture was at the Second Coming (which it is not) the Day of The Lord comes at the 3 1/2 year mark of Tribulation. It is Gods Wrath. Just because a phrase is used in TWO PLACES about TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS that doesn't mean they are speaking about the same thing. The Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath. Not the Rapture. We are not in the DARK or in Satan, we are in the LIGHT or in Christ Jesus, thus we will not have the WRATH OF GOD come upon us like a thief in the Night.........because we will be in Heaven.

Like a thief in the night only signifies SURPRISE.......We will be expectant, but surprised when Jesus calls us home. And those on earth will be Surprised when Gods Wrath hits them.

The time of the judgment of the dead is found in Revelation 11:18, which is right after the 7th trumpet.
Read John 5:27-30 to hear Christ's description of the resurrection and judgment of the dead.

You do understand that Revelation is a series of visions that are not in chronological order right? Revelation 19 starts before anything in Revelation 6-9 happens. Revelation 11 is about the Two-witnesses and the Second and third WOES. The Two-witnesses show up about a month before the Abomination of Desolation. Rev. 11:18 is not the Judgment of ALL THE DEAD. but of the Dead in Christ, the others will be Judged 1000 years later, just like Rev. 20:5 says.

Rev. 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The Nations (Babylon/World) is angry because God has brought the judgments/plagues against them. (Seals/Trumpets and Vials) the time of the dead that they shall be judged, well that is happening IN HEAVEN for the full Seven Year Period. The Dead in Christ are in Heaven being JUDGED AS RIGHTEOUS in Jesus Christs blood, notice it speaks of REWARDS to Servants, Prophets and Saints. Then we will destroy those which destroy the earth, when Jesus comes back at he Seventh Vial. The wicked are JUDGED a 1000 years later.

1 Thessalonians chapter 5 is directly connected to Revelation 19, which occurs at Armageddon.

No, 1 Thessalonians 5 happens at the MID-WAY point, not at the Second Coming.

 

[BABerean2]

It does no such thing !! You don't understand. 1 Thessalonians 4 is about the rapture. 1 Thessalonians 5 is about the Day of the Lord. And the Day of the Lord has nothing to do with the Rapture, even if the Rapture was at the Second Coming (which it is not) the Day of The Lord comes at the 3 1/2 year mark of Tribulation. It is Gods Wrath. Just because a phrase is used in TWO PLACES about TWO DIFFERENT EVENTS that doesn't mean they are speaking about the same thing. The Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath. Not the Rapture. We are not in the DARK or in Satan, we are in the LIGHT or in Christ Jesus, thus we will not have the WRATH OF GOD come upon us like a thief in the Night.........because we will be in Heaven.

I understand just fine that you are ignoring the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, in order to make your doctrine work.
Why are you doing this?
Because it proves that chapter 5 is part of chapter 4.
This is also proven by the conjunction "But" in 1 Thessalonians 5:1.
The word "But" connects two passages. You are doing your best to disconnect them.

Then you are attempting to make the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" the same word, which they are not.

If you are dead, you may miss the tribulation period, but Revelation 12:11 proves that those under the Blood of Christ will be present during the tribulation period.

God's wrath is poured out at the Second Coming, after we are gathered to Christ at Revelation 11:15-18.
Your Bible says the same thing.

..................................................................

Rev 20:5　 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.　

If you think the verse above is the first bodily resurrection of the dead, then there cannot be a pretrib rapture of the Church.
You cannot have both resurrection events being the "first".
.

 

[Revealing Times]

I understand just fine that you are ignoring the words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, in order to make your doctrine work.
Why are you doing this?
Because it proves that chapter 5 is part of chapter 4.
This is also proven by the conjunction "But" in 1 Thessalonians 5:1.
The word "But" connects two passages. You are doing your best to disconnect them.

You don't see to be able to discern the scriptures properly brother. Every chapter probably as an "A" or "THE" on it, but they don't all mean the same thing. Now let me show you why your sleep in 1 Thessalonians 5 doesn't mean what you say.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

{{{ This SLEEP ABOVE is about not partaking in EVIL/SINS of the ordinary man, who is of this world and NOT in Christ Jesus, let us who are OF JESUS be sober putting on the breastplate of faith/love/salvation etc. }}}

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

{{{ The SLEEP ABOVE is about being in Christ Jesus whether we be DEAD or ALIVE !! }}}

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 is Paul telling the Thessalonians that they will not go through the WRATH OF GOD.....Then in verse 4 he starts telling them YOU ARE NOT OF THE DARKNESS...........Later that you are of the LIGHT then in verse 9 he say God has not APPOINTED YOU TO WRATH...........Who is you? Those IN THE LIGHT or in Christ Jesus !!

Then you are attempting to make the Greek words for "tribulation" and "wrath" the same word, which they are not.

I have done an exegesis for "DAY OF THE LORD", everywhere in the bible where it is mentioned means Gods Wrath. Look them all up.

If you are dead, you may miss the tribulation period, but Revelation 12:11 proves that those under the Blood of Christ will be present during the tribulation period.

No it Doesn't. You don't even get what Rev. 12:11 means. As per those who are Martyrs of Jesus in Revelation the became Christians after the Rapture. That is why in Rev. 12:17 they are called A REMNANT (Small part that's left) of the SEED (Jesus) who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. BUT THAT IS TOTALY DIFFERENT FROM Rev. 12:11. Allow me to post the full contextual meaning below.

Rev. 11:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Do you get this now? Satan was cast out of Heaven by Micheal the Arch Angel. The Heavens REJOICED saying now is come Salvation (meaning the time of Judgment is nigh and all under the Blood will be Rewarded shortly) for the accuser is cast down to earth. AND THEY OVERCAME HIM BY THE BLOOD.............Who is THEY? All who are worthy of Salvation in Christ Jesus, WELL OF COURSE, every Brethren that Satan accused DAY AND NIGHT for 2000 years !! He hasn't been cast down until now, so the Anti-Christs reign of terror is just about to START !!

Notice, the devil is come down to earth having GREAT WRATH........and WOE to the inhabitants of the Earth. So those who OVERCAME HIM BY THE BLOOD can't be those killed in the Tribulation, because that does not start unto the evil is cast down at the MID-WAY Point !!

God has given these truths to me because I have sought His face vigilantly. I accept nothing as fact until God reveals it unto me, and if I am proven wrong about something I once thought true, I LET IT GO...........I have no pride of opinion, thus I am able to receive of God. If you look very carefully at the one scripture you posted above about Revelation 12:11, and if you are honest, you must say I am correct. This has nothing to do with the Tribulation Saints that are killed. And I say this, even though I admit there are Tribulation Saints that get killed mind you, but they become Christians after the Rapture. I could have just used that logic to refute your point, but it would not have been the FULL TRUTH, and that is my goal, complete TRUTH. So I spent the time and effort to explain these facts God has so kindly shown me, like a good Christian should do, as we are called to do. Revelation 12"11 has NOTHING TO DO with the Tribulation Saints, it is not possible. Amen.

 

[Revealing Times]

Your Bible says the same thing.

Gods Wrath starts with the Seals which is the Lambs Wrath and ends with the Vials which is Gods Wrath. Research the 31 times it is mentioned in all the Bible !!

Rev 20:5　 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.　

If you think the verse above is the first bodily resurrection of the dead, then there cannot be a pretrib rapture of the Church.
You cannot have both resurrection events being the "first".

I don't.....the FIRST RESURRECTION is all of those who are under the Blood of Christ Jesus. The Dead in Christ and those of us who Remain and are Changed at the time of the PRE-TRIBULATION Rapture and here where those Beheaded as Martyrs for Christ are raised and Judged as WORTHY BROTHERS who will rule on Earth with Christ Jesus for 1000 years. THESE ARE ALL THE FIRST RESURRECTION !!

Then a 1000 years later when the Devil is Judged, all of those of Satan/Darkness are Judged also. That is the Second Resurrection.

 

[BABerean2]

You don't see to be able to discern the scriptures properly brother. Every chapter probably as an "A" or "THE" on it, but they don't all mean the same thing. Now let me show you why your sleep in 1 Thessalonians 5 doesn't mean what you say.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

{{{ This SLEEP ABOVE is about not partaking in EVIL/SINS of the ordinary man, who is of this world and NOT in Christ Jesus, let us who are OF JESUS be sober putting on the breastplate of faith/love/salvation etc. }}}

You might notice that Paul used the word "they" in 1 Thessalonians 5:7, that is "they" sleep in the night.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:10 Paul used the word "we", as in "we" sleep.

Do you know the difference between "they" and "we"?

"they" is not us, but "we" is us, as in Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

And you say I am the one who is not able to discern...

I know the difference between "they" and "we".

Thank you for admitting that 1 Thessalonians 5:10 is about the dead in Christ, which was my main point.
This is a major milestone in our discussion.
If 1 Thessalonians 5:10 is about the dead in Christ, it proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.
Nice work.

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[BABerean2]

Gods Wrath starts with the Seals which is the Lambs Wrath and ends with the Vials which is Gods Wrath. Research the 31 times it is mentioned in all the Bible !!

I have done a search on Gods wrath and those passages are referring to what will be done at the Second Coming of Christ, instead of the word "tribulation", as you are implying.

Rev_1:9　 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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[Revealing Times]

You might notice that Paul used the word "they" in 1 Thessalonians 5:7, that is "they" sleep in the night.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:10 Paul used the word "we", as in "we" sleep.

Do you know the difference between "they" and "we"?

"they" is not us, but "we" is us, as in Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

And you say I am the one who is not able to discern...

I know the difference between "they" and "we".

You point is lost............They mean the EVIL PEOPLE Sleep in DARKNESS......They are BLIND or in the Dark as per right and Wrong. They will go through the Wrath of God.

Verse 10 has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DAY OF THE LORD !!!

It is about the DEAD CHRISTIANS and the ALIVE CHRISTIANS (SLEEP and AWOKE) and that WOULD BE.......US !!

VERSE 7 IS NOT ABOUT US !! Its about THEM............Those in Satan who are in DARKNESS.....They are BLIND they are in the DARK..................They are ASLEEP to the Facts.

This is simple stuff. I am now on my 3rd time explaining this !!

It proves NO SUCH THING...........1 Thess. 4 is about the Rapture.........1 Thess. 5 is about the Day of the Lord which comes 3 1/2 years Later.

Later in 1 Thess. 5 Paul is speaking again about CURRENT EVENTS............The Dead in Christ will NOT GO THROUGH The DAY OF THE LORD..........Gods Wrath. Its still about the Day of the Lord. WE ARE NOT APPOINTED UNTO WRATH.

 

[Revealing Times]

I have done a search on Gods wrath and those passages are referring to what will be done at the Second Coming of Christ, instead of the word "tribulation", as you are implying.

Rev_1:9　 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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Yea.......RIGHT.

 

[BABerean2]

It proves NO SUCH THING...........1 Thess. 4 is about the Rapture.........1 Thess. 5 is about the Day of the Lord which comes 3 1/2 years Later.

Later in 1 Thess. 5 Paul is speaking again about CURRENT EVENTS............The Dead in Christ will NOT GO THROUGH The DAY OF THE LORD..........Gods Wrath. Its still about the Day of the Lord. WE ARE NOT APPOINTED UNTO WRATH.

There is nothing about "3 1/2 years Later" in the passage. You are forcing that into the text to make your doctrine work.

You are correct in the fact that we are not appointed unto wrath.
However, again you are implying that the whole tribulation period is the time of God's wrath.
We see in the text below that at least part of it is Satan's wrath.

Rev 12:11　 and they did overcome him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life—unto death;　
Rev 12:12　 because of this be glad, ye heavens, and those in them who do tabernacle; woe to those inhabiting the land and the sea, because the Devil did go down unto you, having great wrath, having known that he hath little time.'
　
The sequence of events in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 is found below.

Rev 11:15　 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

(1Co 15:52　 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.) The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the Bible. Paul says this is the time of the resurrection of the dead. This is confirmed by verse 18 below.　It is also found in the words of Christ Himself in John 5:27-30. The John 5 passage includes the bodily resurrection of all the dead which is bracketed by verses making it plain that Christ is the judge.
　
Rev 11:16　 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
　
Rev 11:17　 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.　

Rev 11:18　 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.　(This is when God's wrath is come and the time of the judgment of the dead. God's people will be rewarded and the others will be destroyed. This is what the text plainly says.)

We see in the passage above the same sequence found in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5.
We are gathered at the last trump and then comes God's wrath three verses later.

Those who claim the Church will not have to face the antichrist are not preparing the Church for the battle that is coming. It is like telling a group of soldiers that they will not have to engage the enemy in the final battle because the helicopters will come and take them to safety before the time of the battle. However, we find soldiers in that battle in Revelation 12:11.

Revelation 12:11 proves the pretrib doctrine to be incorrect. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant of Christ. Those will be prepared to face the enemy, because of the Blood that bought them at Calvary. They are prepared to fight (testify), even if it costs them their life. It is what real soldiers are prepared to do.

Some of us fear death so much that they cannot bring themselves to face the truth that they may also have to face the enemy in battle.
This is the reason they condemn and ridicule anyone who dares to disagree with John Darby's doctrine.
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[Revealing Times]

There is nothing about "3 1/2 years Later" in the passage. You are forcing that into the text to make your doctrine work.

No, you just don't understand scriptures. The Rapture happens.........the Day of the Lord happens (Gods Wrath) then the Second Coming. (All people who can't get he Rapture and Second Coming right are always blinded by untruths).

You are correct in the fact that we are not appointed unto wrath.
However, again you are implying that the whole tribulation period is the time of God's wrath.
We see in the text below that at least part of it is Satan's wrath.

Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The Seals are the Wrath of the Lamb (God) the Trumpets are the Wrath of the Holy Spirit(God) and the Vial are the Wrath of God. God opens the Seals (Jesus) thus he allows the Anti-Christ to come forth, thus he allows it to come forth being that he is angry with man-kind. The Church is in Heaven by this time. The TROUBLES of Jacob. You guys with this its Satan'a Wrath, it Tribulation etc. etc. forget who is in charge !! God allows the Anti-Christ to come forth, the 70th week is to bring Israel unto repentance. Satan can do nothing until God/Holy Spirit allows him to, stops blocking the Anti-Christ from coming onto the scene.

And I imply no such thing, I state that 3 1/2 years is the WRATH and the first 3 1/2 years is the PEACE/SECURITY of the Anti-Christ.

Rev 12:11　 and they did overcome him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life—unto death;　
Rev 12:12　 because of this be glad, ye heavens, and those in them who do tabernacle; woe to those inhabiting the land and the sea, because the Devil did go down unto you, having great wrath, having known that he hath little time.'

Reread what I wrote, Satan is cast Down at the MID-WAY Point...........else how can he chase Israel into the Wilderness where they sat for GET THIS....IT TELLS THE STORY.....1260 Days !! He is cast Down from Heaven at the very time the Anti-Christ conquers Israel/Jerusalem. So the WRATH is 3 1/2 years. Again, Satan can be Angry that he has been cast out of Heaven AND God can have WRATH AGAINST MAN-KIND at the same time. God casts him to earth knowing what he will do. Its His Judgment against the World. Satan being Angry means nothing, He is always angry, he is a murderer at heart after all. But the Day of the Lord is GODS WRATH......REV. 12:11 as I proved yesterday has nothing to do with the Death of Tribulation Saints, Satan gets cast down at the MID-WAY POINT, so all the Deaths before this are speaking of the 2000 year period from Jesus' Death until the Tribulation period starts at the MID-WAY POINT.......The Anti-Christ doesn't tart his murderous ways until Satan is cast down. REMEMBER.....The first 3 1/2 years is THE PEACE.

The sequence of events in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 is found below.

I have explained this 3 times already. I am not going to try again. HINT: It has nothing to do with the 7th Trumpet which brings WRATH not DELIVERANCE. The 7th Trumpet wasn't even wrote about when Paul wrote this. THE LAST TRUMP has nothing o do with the Revelation Trumpet. It is speaking if the Spring Feast of Trumpets, which always Ends the Feast of Pentecost (Church Age) and begins the Feast of Atonement (Israel must REPENT/ATONE) which will start the 70th Week. Then the Feast of Tabernacle (To Dwell with God) will be when Jesus comes back and Israel dwells with God on earth for 1000 years.

Those who claim the Church will not have to face the antichrist are not preparing the Church for the battle that is coming. It is like telling a group of soldiers that they will not have to engage the enemy in the final battle because the helicopters will come and take them to safety before the time of the battle. However, we find soldiers in that battle in Revelation 12:11.

Again, its Paul and Jesus' words, not mine. You just don't grasp it. Revelation 12:11 has nothing to do with TRIBULATION DEATHS.............PERIOD. The Troubles start at the MID-WAY POINT....Satan is cast down at the MID-WAY point. So this can not b TRIBULATION DEATHS.............For the 3rd time.

Revelation 12:11 proves the pretrib doctrine to be incorrect. A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be under the Grace of the New Covenant of Christ. Those will be prepared to face the enemy, because of the Blood that bought them at Calvary. They are prepared to fight (testify), even if it costs them their life. It is what real soldiers are prepared to do.

Rev. 12:11 seems to have you stumped real bad brother. You can't even figure out these are not TRIBULATION SAINTS !!!

1260 days is KEY..........The Woman flees for 1260 Days AFTER SATAN IS CAST DOWN....The Anti-Christ RUTHLESS RULE last for 42 Months which is 1260 days !! Thus these can not be DEATHS BY THE ANT-CHRIST...............Think man.

Some of us fear death so much that they cannot bring themselves to face the truth that they may also have to face the enemy in battle.
This is the reason they condemn and ridicule anyone who dares to disagree with John Darby's doctrine.
.

Some of us are clueless about scriptures because we are wrapped up in OURSELVES !!

 

[BABerean2]

Some of us are clueless about scriptures because we are wrapped up in OURSELVES !!

There you go again...

There must be something wrong with anyone who does not agree with John Darby's doctrine, brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

There is so much error in your last post that I really do not know where to start.

Lets try sticking to the text.
The seals are seals that Christ removes one at a time from the 7 seals book and then John is told to "come and see", after the seal is removed.
The seals book is a summary of the entire book of Revelation.

We find the same signs in the sun, moon, and stars in Revelation 6:12-13 that is found in the Matthew 24:29 description of the Second Coming of Christ. You have to ignore, deny, of explain this away or see your doctrine come apart.
Those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb at the end of chapter 6 are the same characters found in Revelation 19. They are the "mighty men", "captains", "bond", "free", etc.


Rev 6:15　 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;　

Rev 19:18　 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.　


Revelation chapter 12 begins with a review of history including the birth and death of the man-child, who is to rule with a rod of iron. Psalm 2 reveals that this is Christ. Satan and the wicked angels fell a long time ago. This is confirmed by the wicked angels already bound in the text below.

2Pe_2:4　 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; (Past tense)

Jud_1:6　 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Past tense)


You say that Revelation 12:11 does not contain "tribulation saints", which is a term invented by pretribbers to make their doctrine work.
They are Christians if they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.　

The only way anyone can now see Daniel's 70th week is with a time machine set to return you to the first century. The angel Gabriel did not mention a "gap" in the 490 year timeline, and neither did he mention an antichrist in Daniel chapter 9. Gabriel came to reveal the 490 year timeline that would lead up to the New Covenant Messiah. The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28. Maybe you believe the publishers are also "clueless" if they think the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

The only way anyone can now see the time of "Jacob's Trouble" is with a time machine set to return you to the time of the Babylonian captivity, which is what Jeremiah was writing about when he used the term.

Who Confirmed The Covenant?
James Lloyd
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023
.

 

[Revealing Times]

here you go again...

There must be something wrong with anyone who does not agree with John Darby's doctrine, brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

It is Paul's doctrine and Jesus Christs doctine. Just because you say it started with Darby when I see it in the Bible makes the misunderstanding on you. What my statement, you quoted, means is some of us are full of pride, thus the Holy Spirit can't break through.

The seals are seals that Christ removes one at a time from the 7 seals book and then John is told to "come and see", after the seal is removed.
The seals book is a summary of the entire book of Revelation.

No it is not, no one agrees with you on this brother. (Unless they are way out there also) The 7th seal brings forth the Seven Trumpets and the final three trumpets are three WOES and the final WOE is the Final Seven Vials. The Seven Seals are not about the whole book of Revelation.

We find the same signs in the sun, moon, and stars in Revelation 6:12-13 that is found in the Matthew 24:29 description of the Second Coming of Christ. You have to ignore, deny, of explain this away or see your doctrine come apart.
Those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb at the end of chapter 6 are the same characters found in Revelation 19. They are the "mighty men", "captains", "bond", "free", etc.

I AGREE.........Here is the difference brother. NOW WATCH....I am a Chess player and (don't play much anymore) and I think logically through all situations. Now you see this Revelation chapter 6:12-13 and you see Matthew 24:29 and BOOM....That's it, Revelation 6 has to be after the Tribulation.

But logic and deep thinking is required. The Tribulation/Wrath of God is a 3 1/2 year period. Matthew 24:29 says IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation/TROUBLES START of those Days the Sun will become dark, the Moon will not give her light, the Stars will fall from Heaven (Demons cast Down IMHO) AND THE POWERS WILL BE SHAKEN.

AND THEN....Jesus will appear in heaven, coming in the clouds etc. etc. So as soon as the TROUBLES START, Immediately afterwards, the Sun, Moon and Stars etc. etc. etc. THEN Jesus comes back. This is a play be by play so to speak, Jesus comes IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation if those Days but the Sun, Moon Stars etc. etc. are a PART OF THE TRIBULATION PERIOD. You take these old scriptures too literal at times, when Matthew was just kind of a HINT at what was to come, but Revelation is MUCH MORE DETAILED.....So why do you use Matthew 24 to guide you when Revelation is much more clear and precise? The SUN...MOON And Stars are a part of the TRIBULATION/TROUBLES............Immediately after all of these things Jesus comes. Matthew 24 didn't go into the many other things because Matthew was a Gospel of Jesus, not an END TIMES BOOK !!

As Revelation shows, the Seals happen, the Trumpets happen and the Vials happen. Those hiding in Seal number 6 are not the same as in Revelation chapter 19. Revelation 19 is the same as Vial number 6 (Armageddon) and Vial number 7 where Jesus comes back to Destroy the Anti-Christ. BUT NOT SEAL NUMBER SIX.

Revelation chapter 12 begins with a review of history including the birth and death of the man-child, who is to rule with a rod of iron. Psalm 2 reveals that this is Christ. Satan and the wicked angels fell a long time ago. This is confirmed by the wicked angels already bound in the text below.

No, Satan has access to Heaven, how else does he accuse the Brothers? Some are in the bottomless pit because we see they are freed in Rev. 9 but there is a reason for that. Daniel chapter 12:1-2 tells you Micheal casts Satan out of Heaven at the time of the Rapture.

You say that Revelation 12:11 does not contain "tribulation saints", which is a term invented by pretribbers to make their doctrine work.
They are Christians if they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.

Rev 12:11　 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.　

I have already proved you wrong here.....................

The only way anyone can now see Daniel's 70th week is with a time machine set to return you to the first century. The angel Gabriel did not mention a "gap" in the 490 year timeline, and neither did he mention an antichrist in Daniel chapter 9. Gabriel came to reveal the 490 year timeline that would lead up to the New Covenant Messiah. The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28. Maybe you believe the publishers are also "clueless" if they think the covenant with the many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with the many in Matthew 26:28.

Daniel said SEVENTY SEVENS.....If you can't comprehend the scripture that is not Gods fault.

The only way anyone can now see the time of "Jacob's Trouble" is with a time machine set to return you to the time of the Babylonian captivity, which is what Jeremiah was writing about when he used the term.

No, you can understand scriptures.

 

[jgr]

Daniel said SEVENTY SEVENS

He said seventy weeks (Dan. 9:24), which is, yes, seventy sevens, which is 490 contiguous years.

 

[Revealing Times]

He said seventy weeks (Dan. 9:24), which is, yes, seventy sevens, which is 490 contiguous years.

Its actually Seventy Sevens and no where can you show me where the scriptures say it is continuous. The Bible says he is CUT OFF after 69 Weeks so did the Temple destruction complete the action? Ohhh that was 35 to 40 years later, which would mean it was NOT CONTINUOUS !!

The facts are it is a prophecy that has to be fulfilled before the prophecy is finished. We have 69 weeks, the Church Age, then we have JACOBS TROUBLE, where Israel Repents and comes back to God in this FINAL SEVEN.

Why would God/Gabriel/Daniel have a 7x7 a 62x7 and a 1x7 if it was continuous? It is three sets of Seven.

 

[jgr]

Daniel 9:24 YLT (Young's Literal Translation)
Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.