What is the American Dream, to you?

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

I never said it shouldn't be a voluntary system. Instill the ethic, in opposition to the American Dream, and those contributing will quickly weed out those free-loading. We are all very good at spotting those who seek to cheat the system, and particularly good when it is our own donations at stake.

Best wishes, Strivax.

As long as the fundamental common value of a society is the physical well-being of an individual, no amount of instilled ethics can remove the root cause of socio-economic problems, or even bring any significant improvement. Because the strongest vector of human actions then, above all, is selfishness.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Capitalism: "love thyself more than anybody else".

Communism: "love thy neighbour as thyself".

 

[Strivax]

As long as the fundamental common value of a society is the physical well-being of an individual, no amount of instilled ethics can remove the root cause of socio-economic problems, or even bring any significant improvement. Because the strongest vector of human actions then, above all, is selfishness.

Yes, I would agree that we feel our own pleasures and pains more keenly than we feel those of others, and this inclines us toward selfishness. Unless, of course, we love those others, and rate their needs a higher priority than our own. Nevertheless, I think the well-being of each individual, physical, mental, and spiritual, is a reasonable, and rational, goal to aspire to for everybody, and for everybody's benefit. Mental and spiritual well-being, of course, depend ultimately on physical well-being, so my focus is to at least get that empirical matter sorted first, globally, before I advocate an attempt on anything more subjective and complicated.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

The global nature of "absolute poverty" is a bridge too far for me. I can't address poverty in a faraway third world country (where my efforts would have little or no effect) especially when there are great needs right here.

We all are entitled to different priorities. I like to think that if each of us follows each of our individual consciences, then God has so organised the world that all pressing needs will be met.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Tallguy88]

Capitalism: "love thyself more than anybody else".

Communism: "love thy neighbour as thyself".

Capitalism: every man deserves the fruit of his labor

Communism: everyone deserves the fruit of a man's labor

Both systems in extreme are morally untennable. In Capitalism because workers can become wage slaves, in Communism because workers become labor slaves to the state. This is why Catholicism condemns the excesses of both Capitalism and Communism.

Here's the Wikipedia article on the primary encyclical on it.

Rerum novarum - Wikipedia

 

[OldWiseGuy]

We all are entitled to different priorities. I like to think that if each of us follows each of our individual consciences, then God has so organised the world that all pressing needs will be met.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I agree.

 

[Tull]

Christians usually don't listen to Christ.

"And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need." (Acts 2:44-45).

Where is the specific command to live this way,we have prosperity preachers raking in millions from rich and poor alike so we do have a form of this sort of thing,do you work ? who do you give all your money to ?

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Yes, I would agree that we feel our own pleasures and pains more keenly than we feel those of others, and this inclines us toward selfishness. Unless, of course, we love those others, and rate their needs a higher priority than our own. Nevertheless, I think the well-being of each individual, physical, mental, and spiritual, is a reasonable, and rational, goal to aspire to for everybody, and for everybody's benefit. Mental and spiritual well-being, of course, depend ultimately on physical well-being, so my focus is to at least get that empirical matter sorted first, globally, before I advocate an attempt on anything more subjective and complicated.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I didn't want to emphasize physical, I actually at first didn't write that word, but edited it in later. I don't know. Perhaps such separation of the physical isn't correct here. It does jump at you first and foremost, when I consider the American ideology on the surface of it. Well, let's forget about dividing different aspects of a human being, spiritual/mental/physical, and look at it at a wider angle.

I believe that the root cause of many of the socio-economic issues the world faces, is that currently the foundation of the society in all countries (more or less) is this model -

1) Highest value is: "good of an individual (survival of the fittest)"

as opposed to -

2) Highest value is: "good of the society as a whole (collectivism)"

 

[Tull]

Capitalism: "love thyself more than anybody else".

Communism: "love thy neighbour as thyself".

By these statments I assume you approve of the millions who were slaughtered under communism in the 20th century as collateral damage in order to follow Jesus.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Capitalism: every man deserves the fruit of his labor

Communism: everyone deserves the fruit of a man's labor

Both systems in extreme are morally untennable. In Capitalism because workers can become wage slaves, in Communism because workers become labor slaves to the state. This is why Catholicism condemns the excesses of both Capitalism and Communism.

Here's the Wikipedia article on the primary encyclical on it.

Rerum novarum - Wikipedia

I think by using terms capitalism/communism as opposed to individualism/collectivism, I have combined or confused the social and economic ideas together. You talk on the subject more in economical terms.

If we go by the classical definitions by Marx and Engels, then

Capitalism: every man deserves the fruit of his labor

Capitalism: the fruits of the labour of the proletariat and farmers or the added value is expropriated by the capitalists. With intelligentia being the serving class. They are paid a wage which is disproportionate to the actual product value they produce.

Today I think they talk about post-national capitalism society (after Reiganomics), which is the rule of global trans-national corporations.

Communism: everyone deserves the fruit of a man's labor

Communism (never attained by any country, the USSR had only first stage of socialism): the fruits of the labour of proletariat and farmers and intelligentia is given back to them 100%, thus creating a prosperous and equal society without any exploitation or expropriation. In theory, the amount of actual labour to achieve a happy and harmonious society, diminishes in time, due to technical progress and rooting out many social evils. Therefore, the workers and intelligentia are spending more time for the betterment of society and development in progress and knowledge.

 

[Tull]

I believe that the root cause of many of the socio-economic issue the world faces, is that currently the foundation of the society in all countries today (more or less) is this model -

What does God say man's problem is and the cause ?

1) Highest value is: "good of an individual (survival of the fittest)"

A system that has allowed millions to improve their lives,there is much cooperation in the employer/employee relationship and both benefit

2) Highest value is: "good of the society as a whole (collectivism)"

Nonsense,people value what they have a part in creating,given something for nothing they value nothing,all the public housing areas here are dumps because people do not care,they didn't pay for it,they don't pay to maintain it and it cost them nothing to be there.

 

[Tull]

And I can't help but notice that not a single word has been said about the spiritual condition of people and how it affects their lives,the topic here is money,how to seize it and control it.....how Christian.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

By these statments I assume you approve of the millions who were slaughtered under communism in the 20th century as collateral damage in order to follow Jesus.

Millions weren't slaughtered under communism. There was a civil war that took lives of 2 million people - between two major parties within communists, monarchists, and with foreign invadors of 1917-1923. There was the war with the Nazi Germany of 1941-1945, the worst evil on the planet, when 20 millions perished. After that, there weren't deaths. There was a massacre of the 1936-1937 by the Trotskist party (one of the two major wings within Bolsheviks), that was stopped by Stalin.

Yes, there was very much hate and murder and bloodshed. But most of it was not because of the communists that eventually won, if we're historically neutral and honest. There were many forces at play, internal and external.

The Bolshevik communism had nothing do to with Jesus Christ, being at first very atheistic, and then after the war with Nazi Germany, softening up to the Christian faith whose small revival helped in the victory.

When finally my country attained peace, by becoming very strong in 1949, there was no violence. No communism was built, only first stage of socialism. Until Gorbachev destroyed it in 1985-1991.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

What does God say man's problem is and the cause ?

In social terms, Jesus says, love thy neighbour as yourself.

A system that has allowed millions to improve their lives,there is much cooperation in the employer/employee relationship and both benefit

Absolutely. There is some good and bad in any society. Even if take the worst forms of it, like Slavery-based Feudalism of ancient Rome or primitive tribal living with constant bloody wars.

Nonsense,people value what they have a part in creating,given something for nothing they value nothing,all the public housing areas here are dumps because people do not care,they didn't pay for it,they don't pay to maintain it and it cost them nothing to be there.

Yes, that's the way it works in individualist capitalism. In the USSR, the most beautiful residential areas and other facilities that never existed anywhere on the planet, like Pioneer Palaces for children's crafts and sciences or Pioneer Camps (long-term summer camps), or Sports and Recreation Centres - etc. were up-kept in the best condition. Clean, with gardens and flower beds, fully renovated regularly (yearly for free in my apartment complex!!!). People weren't flocking into urban areas, as country side was developed well and people were making very good living there, often better than city folks. People were full of dignity and pride for their living, no matter what kind of job they worked.

Besides from the economic aspect, there was a sincere spirit of brotherhood and unity. It's something that can't be measured by any money ever.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Where is the specific command to live this way,we have prosperity preachers raking in millions from rich and poor alike so we do have a form of this sort of thing,do you work ? who do you give all your money to ?

You know, brother, I don't believe in giving to the church the way it is today. I think it's a very sinful idea. I've started a couple of threads on this subjects at CF before.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

people value what they have a part in creating,given something for nothing they value nothing,all the public housing areas here are dumps because people do not care,they didn't pay for it,they don't pay to maintain it and it cost them nothing to be there.

Dear brother, here are some old photographs of the USSR era of my hometown Alma-Ata (now Almaty). And Kazakhstan was not an important or most developed republic (province) of the country. I just googled this blog, it's not mine:

Link 1 - Старая Алма-Ата
Link 2 - Старая Алма-Ата,часть 2.
Link 3 - Архивные фотографии Алма-Аты из семейного альбома

 

[Tallguy88]

Millions weren't slaughtered under communism. There was a civil war that took lives of 2 million people - between two major parties within communists, monarchists, and with foreign invadors of 1917-1923. There was the war with the Nazi Germany of 1941-1945, the worst evil on the planet, when 20 millions perished. After that, there weren't deaths. There was a massacre of the 1936-1937 by the Trotskist party (one of the two major wings within Bolsheviks), that was stopped by Stalin.

Yes, there was very much hate and murder and bloodshed. But most of it was not because of the communists that eventually won, if we're historically neutral and honest. There were many forces at play, internal and external.

The Bolshevik communism had nothing do to with Jesus Christ, being at first very atheistic, and then after the war with Nazi Germany, softening up to the Christian faith whose small revival helped in the victory.

When finally my country attained peace, by becoming very strong in 1949, there was no violence. No communism was built, only first stage of socialism. Until Gorbachev destroyed it in 1985-1991.

Don't forget the Holodomor of the 1930s

Holodomor - Wikipedia

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Don't forget the Holodomor of the 1930s

Holodomor - Wikipedia

The same thing happened across the USSR at the same time, not just in one part of it (Ukraine). People were dying in Russia, in Belorussia, in Kazakhstan. My great-grandparents lost 12 kids to this same famine, only 2 survived, including my granddad. Bad drought, international trade sanctions against the USSR, recent bloody destructive civil war, active reforms in process from feudalistic inefficient agriculture to highly efficient socialist collective farming. A number of unfortunate factors that caused famine of 1932-33 in much of the USSR, but not created on purpose and not against the Ukranians specifically. Such accusation goes against the historical truth and logic of the previous and later events.

The Soviet government didn't create this famine on purpose, it wasn't crazy. They took time to gather gold, and buy grain from rogue countries that were willing to break the trade blockade of major world powers. They used gold from Orthodox Churches, among other sources.

This is one of many anti-Soviet and anti-Russian myths. The Wikipedia is a champion of propagating them.

Did you know, that famines were quite a regular occurrences in the Russian Empire? All over it, in what is now Russia, Belorussia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine etc? Because it was mostly agricultural country, heavily relying on early crops to feed the peasants due to inefficient agriculture.

You can read about one such devastating famines in Tula region of Russia in 1892. Sorry, it's in Russian:

Голод 1892 года. Село Никитское Воловского района Тульской области

Was it also created by the Tsarist government to kill a few million Russians, huh?

 

[Tull]

Well I guess we can dismiss all the history and personal accounts etc,the Soviet Union was a wonderful country full of happy people living the good life.....pity the people didn't fight harder to keep it.

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

Well I guess we can dismiss all the history and personal accounts etc,the Soviet Union was a wonderful country full of happy people living the good life.....pity the people didn't fight harder to keep it.

History is never black and white. In any country. Dismiss myth, not truth.

Yes it became the best country on earth ever, eventually. The bad years of 1917-1945 aren't all "the communists" doing - many forces were at play.

We didn't fight harder to keep the USSR, being very naive and believing Gorbachev with his sweet talk, but murderous actions. He lied. He betrayed. In 1991, there was a referendum, the people overehelmely voted to keep it. Later in 1991, Gorbachev signed a document to dissolve the USSR...

BTW - Holodomor in the Kazakh language is "Joot". Why nobody in the Western world knows about the equal if not greater suffering of my people during the same years? Because we don't blame the Soviet government. We tell the truth as it was. Who needs truth in the world of geopolitics? Nobody.