What is the American Dream, to you?

[Strivax]

So, I'm just now listening to a pertinent BBC Radio program.

Are the pursuit of happiness, the pursuit of economic success, and the pursuit of virtue, necessarily or not necessarily the same thing? If you think they are, is 'individualism' in politics necessarily a social good, and why? If they aren't, which of these pursuits should be the priority for any Christian, and why?

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So, I'm just now listening to a pertinent BBC Radio program.

Are the pursuit of happiness, the pursuit of economic success, and the pursuit of virtue, necessarily or not necessarily the same thing? If you think they are, is 'individualism' in politics necessarily a social good, and why? If they aren't, which of these pursuits should be the priority for any Christian, and why?

Best wishes, Strivax.

The freedom and means to craft one's life as they choose.

 

[Strivax]

Yes, freedom is one of those political 'hooray' words. No one is really against it, except for those who wish to exercise power. And even they won't admit it. As for the means, are we getting close to a suggestion of equality of opportunity as a desirable political goal, with all the lack of 'freedom', (like, say, nationalised health and social service and education), that that implies? Not to mention an equitable distribution of the world's personal wealth...

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[inquiring mind]

Are the pursuit of happiness, the pursuit of economic success, and the pursuit of virtue, necessarily or not necessarily the same thing?

Not necessarily, in my opinion. There are happy, virtuous people who aren’t prioritizing economic success in their lives.

If they aren't, which of these pursuits should be the priority for any Christian, and why?

I think the pursuit of virtue should be the main priority for any Christian; there’s an awfully good chance the other two will come right along on their own.

 

[Strivax]

Not necessarily, in my opinion. There are happy, virtuous people who aren’t prioritizing economic success in their lives....I think the pursuit of virtue should be the main priority for any Christian; there’s an awfully good chance the other two will come right along on their own.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with this. For me, happiness is a natural by-product of the pursuit of virtue, always assuming one's basic biological needs are met. (Security, food, shelter, someone to love, that kind of thing). Seems to me, anyway, that the 'American Dream', when interpreted as a drive for excessive economic success, is entirely irrelevant to either happiness or virtue. I'm interested in how many here agree, or disagree, and either way, what their reasons are.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Yes, freedom is one of those political 'hooray' words. No one is really against it, except for those who wish to exercise power. And even they won't admit it. As for the means, are we getting close to a suggestion of equality of opportunity as a desirable political goal, with all the lack of 'freedom', (like, say, nationalised health and social service and education), that that implies? Not to mention an equitable distribution of the world's personal wealth...

Best wishes, Strivax.

I wouldn't confine the term freedom that way. I mean the freedom to choose my own way and the wherewithal to do it. That is what America is all about. That's why people come here. Regarding the "equitable distribution of wealth", that sounds like economic duress to me; taking what I worked for and giving to someone who hasn't.

 

[Strivax]

I wouldn't confine the term freedom that way. I mean the freedom to choose my own way and the wherewithal to do it. That is what America is all about. That's why people come here. Regarding the "equitable distribution of wealth", that sounds like economic duress to me; taking what I worked for and giving to someone who hasn't.

That's an interesting take on the American dream. I mean, that opportunity should not be equal, that some 'deserve' better opportunities than others, because they, or their parents, or their Mayflower pilgrim forbears, got richer than others. Seems to me some of those who were imported as slaves might object. They didn't have much in the way of choice, and few worked harder than them, for longer hours, under worse conditions. And so, mostly, those who start out with nothing end up with nothing. If you want equality, and you want freedom of choice, such that economic outcomes depend on the difference in quality of individual choices, and are therefore 'fair', seems to me everyone has to start from the same place, at least. If that seems like duress, it shouldn't. It should be a simple principle of universally recognised social justice, accepted by all.

But perhaps, being myself radically poor, I can see this more easily than most. I have no vested interest to defend.

Anyway, I can testify that once basic needs are met, whether one has $scarce, $thousands, $millions, or $billions in one's bank account, it affects one's happiness not one jot. A clean conscience and something worthwhile to do are better than all of them.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's an interesting take on the American dream. I mean, that opportunity should not be equal, that some 'deserve' better opportunities than others, because they, or their parents, or their Mayflower pilgrim forbears, got richer than others. Seems to me some of those who were imported as slaves might object. They didn't have much in the way of choice, and few worked harder than them, under worse conditions. And so, mostly, those who start out with nothing end up with nothing. If you want equality, and you want freedom of choice, such that economic outcomes depend on the difference in quality of individual choices, and are therefore 'fair', seems to me everyone has to start from the same place, at least. If that seems like duress, it shouldn't. It should be a simple principle of universally recognised social justice, accepted by all.

But perhaps, being myself radically poor, I can see this more easily than most. I have no vested interest to defend.

Anyway, I can testify that once basic needs are met, whether one has $scarce, $thousands, $millions, or $billions in one's bank account, it affects one's happiness not one jot. A clean conscience and something worthwhile to do are better than all of them.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Even if we started everyone off on an equal footing within a few generations the same disparity would exist. Some people are simply more apt to succeed than others, and for many reasons. Are they to be handicapped by those who aren't. Much of the American dream is to achieve to the utmost of your abilities and talents. Those who must start at the bottom can succeed as well, it just takes longer. Regarding our (obviously Anglo-Saxon) forbearers we have a longer history of building wealth than most others. You can strip them of their wealth but you cannot erase their history and culture of material success, which would manifest quickly in any case.

Just a side note. Latinos send $50Billion back home each year to aid their extended families there. If they would heed God's admonition to "leave your mother and father and cleave to your wife" they would be much better off, and America would have that $50Billion to spend here ($250Billion really figuring a 5x trade turn).

 

[Tull]

I wouldn't confine the term freedom that way. I mean the freedom to choose my own way and the wherewithal to do it. That is what America is all about. That's why people come here. Regarding the "equitable distribution of wealth", that sounds like economic duress to me; taking what I worked for and giving to someone who hasn't.

That's exactly what it is,its about producing and contributing while receiving no more than those who have of their own free will produced and contributed nothing.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's exactly what it is,its about producing and contributing while receiving no more than those who have of their own free will produced and contributed nothing.

Aha! You've exposed the hidden American dream. Thanks!

 

[Strivax]

That's exactly what it is,its about producing and contributing while receiving no more than those who have of their own free will produced and contributed nothing.

I actually have a couple issues to raise, here.

Firstly, and trivially, it seems to me that most people, of their own free will, do not 'produce nothing and contribute nothing'. Most people, of their own free will, prefer quite the opposite, to be valuable and valued members of their society and culture and communities. There may be a few free-riders who just take and never give, but in my experience, these are just as likely to be the rich as the poor, and rich or poor, tend to be the most unhappy among us.

Secondly, to be able to produce and contribute requires a few basics in place, first. Some education, some health care, enough to eat and drink, a secure place to call home, and so on. Without these social goods freely available, the individual cannot be blamed for not producing and contributing.

Finally, I would challenge the assumption that a human is no more than an economic producing and contributing machine as a particularly pernicious idea, specifically, that life is all about money. Seems to me, life is actually about the subtly complex and highly perilous war between good and evil. Come the end of days, I doubt God will be concerned at all with how many cars we owned, or how big our house was, except in the context of whether we deployed our resources wisely and well. But I contend He will be directly concerned with whether the world was the better, or worse, for our having lived out our lives.

So, just some thoughts that occurred as I read your contribution, Tull.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

Just a side note. Latinos send $50Billion back home each year to aid their extended families there. If they would heed God's admonition to "leave your mother and father and cleave to your wife" they would be much better off, and America would have that $50Billion to spend here ($250Billion really figuring a 5x trade turn).

So, do you really begrudge the idea that working Latinos prefer to support their families abroad (who have inferior, sometimes non-existent, social welfare available to them) than spend any excess of their money, presumably on stuff they don't actually need, (or the cash wouldn't be repatriated), in America?

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Tull]

I actually have a couple issues to raise, here.

Firstly, and trivially, it seems to me that most people, of their own free will, do not 'produce nothing and contribute nothing'. Most people, of their own free will, prefer quite the opposite, to be valuable and valued members of their society and culture. There may be a few free-riders who just take and never give, but in my experience, these are just as likely to be the rich as the poor, and rich or poor, tend to be the most unhappy among us.

Secondly, to be able to produce and contribute requires a few basics in place, first. Some education, some health care, enough to eat and drink, a secure place to call home, and so on. Without these social goods freely available, the individual cannot be blamed for not producing and contributing.

Finally, I would challenge the assumption that a human is no more than an economic producing and contributing machine as a particularly pernicious idea, specifically, that life is all about money. Seems to me, life is actually about the subtly complex and highly perilous war between good and evil.

So, just some thoughts that occurred as I read your contribution, Tull.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Life is not fair and never will be

 

[Strivax]

Life is not fair and never will be

Indeed not. That is the very fact that ultimately persuades me there must be, in a scheme contrived by a just God, some kind of reckoning in an afterlife.

Meanwhile, we can choose how we react to life's unfairness in the here and now. We have two choices. We can accept it, and exploit our advantages to the detriment of others. Or we can do what we can to rectify the fault, and make of the world a fairer place for all. We can't, any one of us, manage that on our own. But if we all tried, then I think we would have considerable impact.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So, do you really begrudge the idea that working Latinos prefer to support their families abroad (who have inferior, sometimes non-existent, social welfare available to them) than spend any excess of their money, presumably on stuff they don't actually need, (or the cash wouldn't be repatriated), in America?

Best wishes, Strivax.

Money moves quickly. Money sent out of the country cannot be used within the country, to feed the kids in Appalachia for example (the $50Billion sent out is a loss of tax revenue of $50Billion).

The problem is the sheer number of immigrants that are sending money out, just as the immigration problem itself is the sheer number of immigrants legal and illegal.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Secondly, to be able to produce and contribute requires a few basics in place, first. Some education, some health care, enough to eat and drink, a secure place to call home, and so on. Without these social goods freely available, the individual cannot be blamed for not producing and contributing.

Basically this is what the first 30 years of a person's life is for, to prepare themselves to contribute. Once they have met their own needs they are in a position to contribute. That's part of starting at the bottom and working our way up over time.

Too many have a sense of entitlement, believing that neither they or anyone else should have to struggle at all. Within the traditional struggles are life's real lessons. Why deny them such a great education?

 

[Strivax]

Basically this is what the first 30 years of a person's life is for, to prepare themselves to contribute. Once they have met their own needs they are in a position to contribute. That's part of starting at the bottom and working our way up over time.

Too many have a sense of entitlement, believing that neither they or anyone else should have to struggle at all. Within the traditional struggles are life's real lessons. Why deny them such a great education?

Don't get me wrong, I am not against struggles. I am not even against struggles versus impossible odds, as my conversations on this forum sometimes seem to be. Struggling is, as you imply, a good thing, and builds character, but when and only when that struggle is necessary. When the struggle is unnecessary, such as a parent struggling to feed a malnourished child, in a world where enough food is produced for all to eat a healthy diet, and many in the west are clinically obese, then one tends to ask oneself whether or not this is the best way to deploy the energy, commitment, and total involvement of the said parent. Perhaps they might be of more use to humanity if they were free of such a necessity, and more able to express their talents and skills in a more voluntarily elective manner, and struggle on in more productive ways.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Tull]

Indeed not. That is the very fact that ultimately persuades me there must be, in a scheme contrived by a just God, some kind of reckoning in an afterlife.

Meanwhile, we can choose how we react to life's unfairness in the here and now. We have two choices. We can accept it, and exploit our advantages to the detriment of others. Or we can do what we can to rectify the fault, and make of the world a fairer place for all. We can't, any one of us, manage that on our own. But if we all tried, then I think we would have considerable impact.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Exploit our advantages ? Like getting up and going to work and doing the best job we can......to the detriment of others ? you mean earning money that is taken from us to support people refuse to get up and go to work and do the best job they can......its the same old communist/socialist/collectivist nonsense that has failed time and time again

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Don't get me wrong, I am not against struggles. I am not even against struggles versus impossible odds. Struggling is, as you imply, a good thing, and builds character, but when and only when that struggle is necessary. When the struggle is unnecessary, such as a parent struggling to feed a malnourished child, in a world where enough food is produced for all to eat a healthy diet, and many in the west are clinically obese, then one tends to ask oneself whether or not this is the best way to deploy the energy, commitment, and total involvement of the said parent. Perhaps they might be of more use to humanity if they were free of such a necessity, and more able to express their talents and skills in a more voluntarily elective manner, and struggle on in more productive ways.

Best wishes, Strivax.

My first thought here is the old bromide, "It's hard to focus on draining the swamp when you're up to your ass in alligators."

 

[Strivax]

Exploit our advantages ? Like getting up and going to work and doing the best job we can......to the detriment of others ? you mean earning money that is taken from us to support people refuse to get up and go to work and do the best job they can......its the same old communist/socialist/collectivist nonsense that has failed time and time again

Tull, I am not getting at you, individually and personally. I am getting at 'the system', that allows some to accrue inordinate amounts of wealth, and purchase all manner of advantages for themselves and their own, while others, no less virtuous, hunger, starve, and sometimes die. As I have pointed out in other threads, there is a certain amount of wealth in the world (call that $X) and a certain amount of people (call that Y people). If you accumulate more than $X/Y then you are by definition accumulating more than your fair share, to the detriment of others who must be left with less than their fair share. If that is the 'American Dream', then I think it to be no benign dream, but a dystopian nightmare.

The ideas that our happiness should depend on such an accumulation, and that it is virtuous to assemble that accumulation, which seem part and parcel of the American Dream, seem to me to be entirely disingenuous justifications of a system so unfair that even you have noticed it's injustice.

Best wishes, Strivax.