All Glory To God

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I can sympathize a lot with this post in general.

Another reason to use a modern translation. I have never heard anyone use "concupiscence" in modern English.

Well, if convenience is the motive for choosing a Bible version I agree newer versions are best. However, I personally am not seeking for the easy road in life. I am seeking the truth and if it means extra work needs to be done in order to accomplish that, so be it.

I wonder how many people in this forum had to look up the word's meaning.

I would think the vast majority and for different reasons.

Here is Romans 7:8a, for example, in modern English: "But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of wrong desires." And here is Colossians 3:5, " So put to death whatever in your nature belongs to the earth: sexual immorality, impurity, shameful passion, evil desire, and greed which is idolatry." And here is 1 Thessalonians 4:3-5, " For this is God’s will: that you become holy, that you keep away from sexual immorality, that each of you know how to possess his own body in holiness and honor, not in lustful passion like the Gentiles who do not know God."


I am not a KJV only person but I think it is the most reliable. The newer versions are quite corrupt but this is not the topic of the thread. Ultimately, it is up to the individual to decide what Bible they read.

Why deal with obfuscation? To feel pseudo-holy? Notice how much clearer things are when read a) in context and b) in 21st Century English (the language we all use and understand).

I do think Christian people should live Holy, in a non-hypocritical fashion. That is not the purpose for introducing this new subject matter.

The purpose of me bringing concupiscence into the dialogue is because sin is the topic of the thread. Sin is a very complex subject. Sin is a very important subject and that's why I started this thread.

And the reason why it seems unclear is because it's not preached or taught in depth anymore. But it should be, because sin separates us from God and original sin is a core Christian belief. Why is Grace so important, if sin was not so destructive?


And if nothing else Christians should know these doctrines to teach Jews,Muslims,other religions and Atheists about the Christian faith. All these groups have the idea that humanity is good natured and can make themselves right with God by their own merit. So we need to respectfully correct these errors they hold.
 
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pescador

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I can sympathize a lot with this post in general.



Well, if convenience is the motive for choosing a Bible version I agree newer versions are best. However, I personally am not seeking for the easy road in life. I am seeking the truth and if it means extra work needs to be done in order to accomplish that, so be it.



I would think the vast majority and for different reasons.




I am not a KJV only person but I think it is the most reliable. The newer versions are quite corrupt but this is not the topic of the thread. Ultimately, it is up to the individual to decide what Bible they read.



I do think Christian people should live Holy, in a non-hypocritical fashion. That is not the purpose for introducing this new subject matter.

The purpose of me bringing concupiscence into the dialogue is because sin is the topic of the thread. Sin is a very complex subject. Sin is a very important subject and that's why I started this thread.

And the reason why it seems unclear is because it's not preached or taught in depth anymore. But it should be, because sin separates us from God and original sin is a core Christian belief. Why is Grace so important, if sin was not so destructive?


And if nothing else Christians should know these doctrines to teach Jews,Muslims,other religions and Atheists about the Christian faith. All these groups have the idea that humanity is good natured and can make themselves right with God by their own merit. So we need to respectfully correct these errors they hold.

Off-topic, so I'll reply once only...

You wrote "Well, if convenience is the motive for choosing a Bible version I agree newer versions are best. However, I personally am not seeking for the easy road in life. I am seeking the truth and if it means extra work needs to be done in order to accomplish that, so be it."

Convenience isn't the motive for choosing a Bible version, understanding is. The KJV not only is not the most accurate translation, it's written in a dead version of English. If you're seeking the truth, try using a Bible that is more accurate than a 400-year-old version commissioned by a king to make his version of Christianity the only "authorized" one.

The newer versions are not corrupt but this is not the topic of the thread. So, don't bring it into the discussion.
 
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All Glory To God

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Another revealing passage in regard to sin is James 1:15

James 1:15 (KJV)
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.


James 1 15(ESV)
Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.


What this shows is sin is not an external force or substance that effects human creation after we are born at a certain age of accountability. Rather, it is innate and sin stems from something else. And the starting point that sin flows from is concupiscence or original sin, the unfortunate condition humanity has been left in after Adams rebellion and disbelief against God. Moral righteousness is no longer possible without the gift of Grace. Gods goodness bestowed on his depraved creation, although deserving of punishment and wrath but receiving love in its place. And absolutely unmerited on mans part.

All the stages are there: We have a sin nature, we actual sin and we are punished for our transgression and shortcomings. Unless, we have an advocate that can redeem us from our guilt.
 
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All Glory To God

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For references on Concupiscence, Augustine in his book ''Confessions'' writes on the subject. Specifically book ten. So the early church fathers support this doctrine.

When I read confessions on a PDF online and compared it with my printed book, concupiscence was not to be found in the online PDF. Rather they switched it out for ''lust'' so I just want to warn people to be cautious about the sources that are used online.
 
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All Glory To God

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The ''Abrahamic religions'' of Christianity, Talmudic Judaism and Islam have an overlap of scripture, to some degree. Whilst Jews deny Jesus Christ as their saviour, they accept the old testament or Torah. Christians share the Old testament with Jews but accept Christ as their saviour. Both groups reject Islam to be the abrogation of their faith. And the Islamic religion claims to be the final revelation from God stemming back to the Old Testament or Torah.

What is distinctive about the three is our view on sin. More specifically, Jews and Muslims do not believe that there have been consequences for Adams sin in the garden. That sin is passed down through the generations due to the corrupt nature we are born. A moral failing and inability to be righteous without the grace of God.

And inevitably this has given Jews and Muslims a different path to salvation to Christians. Both believing that man has a good nature by denying ancestral sin.

However there are scriptures that teach unambiguously that sin is passed down through generations, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament.





Exodus 34:7
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation

Deuteronomy 23:2
A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD

Numbers 14:18
The Lord is slow to anger and abundant in mercy, forgiving wrongdoing and violation of His Law; but He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.’

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.




And for any professing Christians that claim humans do not have a sin nature, you have successfully placed yourself outside the realm of orthodox Christianity and into the fold of Judaism and the Islamic belief system. (In respects to how the different religions view sin, man and God)
 
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All Glory To God

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Our Lord and saviour seems to be hinting at the perils of Original sin during the sermon of mount:


Matthew 6:34 KJV
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof

Matthew 6:34 ESV
Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.



Because of the fall from the grace of God and ongoing punishments due to Adams sin, our bodies now die a physical death. Adam was a created human and not designed to die but he sinned. Adam was removed from the garden, and all his human family, the future generations born outside the garden are under the punishments of God. The change is now actually dying and human origins not being created but having a birth, which Adam did not experience.

So now, as our bodies are prone to death we need food and water to sustain our lives, in the short term. A daily struggle for survival over sustenance but lying underneath there is something else. The potential to sin, as our concupiscence awaits the opportunity to transgress. Gluttony, Greed, lack of gratitude for Gods providence the list is endless of how a person could sin with the misuse of sustenance. And the struggle happens everyday.


Controlling one's stomach is also commanded, not merely recommended by our saviour Jesus Christ:

Matthew 6:16
“And when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward


Notice there is an anticipation to fast, not merely recommendation, as Christ says ''when'' not if you fast. He tells us to fast for several reasons, but one for sure is to curb our sin. The sin of concupiscence or original sin.
 
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All Glory To God

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Continuing on with sin, I would like to explore in more depth the human nature. How could we define ''nature'' in regard to the human creature? What common traits do all humans have that run through them?

Why do we sin? Do we sin because it's congruent to our innate character? Or do we sin as a result of environmental factors outside of us. Such as the actions that others have on us and the external spiritual realm? God created the earth, so if there are evil forces flowing out from it, God would be responsible for that. If Adam disobeyed God and caused the fall, than Man is the cause of sin.

What are the human desires? Are they Holy and eager to please the creator? If our nature is Holy, why do we sin? And from the earliest times Man has called out to God (Gen 4:26) but remember that was not the original and intended abode for human creation, sin broke that.
 
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All Glory To God

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''Original sin is in us like our beard. we are shaved today and look clean; tomorrow our beard has grown again, nor does it cease growing while we remain on earth. In like manner original sin cannot be extirpated from us; it springs up in us as long as we live''.

-Martin Luther

JunkerGeorge.jpg
 
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All Glory To God

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The way in which God almighty relates to sin is also a complexity, from a human perspective.

Although God is completely free from the effects of sin, the creator does have an intimate direct relationship with his human creatures. And the human creatures themselves are tainted with sin. So if God passes through his creation by providence or Spirit, what result does that have on God himself?

We know that God is ubiquitous. Through his divine attribute of omnipresence, God is in all places (Jer 23:23-24). This includes human creation and not merely in a metaphorical sense but a literal sense (Phil 2:13). The difficult part (for me) is discerning how God can engage with sinful beings and not have some consequences of that. God has no sin, we have sin: So is God sinless even after dealing with his fallen creation? Yes! But I don't know how. The best answer I can come up with is God is not like us but altogether different. We do not understand God (Rom 11:33) as he is infinitely higher than us and the only glimpses of the creator we have is what he chooses to reveal to us.

Praise the lord. The only sovereign, Holy, righteous one.
 
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Blade

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God gave man all the works of His hands.. to have dominion. Satan comes alone man listens and as Satan said to Christ all this was handed/given to him and he give to anyone he wants. So sin nature is what we are all born into. Like it or not agree or not matters not for we all know this flesh and how it LOVES to sin. Yet when we are born from above (born again) we find this battle with in us. Part wants to obey do everything God wants.. it wants to praise Him fellowship with Him.. yet this other part always wants to sin. As Paul said.. its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me. That is what one needs to understand.

The Father now sees us through what Christ has already done already finished. We are holy pure righteous NOT of our selfs but what Christ already did. The Father sees us through the son. So sin is as others said as ANY one can look up simply missing the mark.

So we that put off your old self [completely discard your former nature], which is being corrupted through deceitful desires and be continually renewed in the spirit of your mind [having a fresh, untarnished mental and spiritual attitude],and put on the new self [the regenerated and renewed nature], created in God’s image, [godlike] in the righteousness and holiness of the truth [living in a way that expresses to God your gratitude for your salvation].

How do you know what is sin? Cute :) Did not God say "I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people". There are times we are blind if we were blind we would have no sin.. we say we sin our sin remains.. as Christ said.

To focus on sin is unwise or that is all you will see. What happens now is.. we that believe Christ came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin and was buried and rose the 3rd day is the only way to the Father.. we sin we step out of fellowship. He can not die again for the sin of the world. This time it was not put on anything and then set free.. aka just covered.. its gone.

Oh. I posted AMP I like it..but I like KJV it is for me the closest to the org that NOW days ANYONE can simple look search on. What matters is do you know the GOOD NEWS? He is coming soon..oh PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS!
 
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All Glory To God

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God gave man all the works of His hands.. to have dominion. Satan comes alone man listens and as Satan said to Christ all this was handed/given to him and he give to anyone he wants. So sin nature is what we are all born into. Like it or not agree or not matters not for we all know this flesh and how it LOVES to sin. Yet when we are born from above (born again) we find this battle with in us. Part wants to obey do everything God wants.. it wants to praise Him fellowship with Him.. yet this other part always wants to sin. As Paul said.. its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me. That is what one needs to understand.

The Father now sees us through what Christ has already done already finished. We are holy pure righteous NOT of our selfs but what Christ already did. The Father sees us through the son. So sin is as others said as ANY one can look up simply missing the mark.

So we that put off your old self [completely discard your former nature], which is being corrupted through deceitful desires and be continually renewed in the spirit of your mind [having a fresh, untarnished mental and spiritual attitude],and put on the new self [the regenerated and renewed nature], created in God’s image, [godlike] in the righteousness and holiness of the truth [living in a way that expresses to God your gratitude for your salvation].

How do you know what is sin? Cute :) Did not God say "I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people". There are times we are blind if we were blind we would have no sin.. we say we sin our sin remains.. as Christ said.

To focus on sin is unwise or that is all you will see. What happens now is.. we that believe Christ came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin and was buried and rose the 3rd day is the only way to the Father.. we sin we step out of fellowship. He can not die again for the sin of the world. This time it was not put on anything and then set free.. aka just covered.. its gone.

Oh. I posted AMP I like it..but I like KJV it is for me the closest to the org that NOW days ANYONE can simple look search on. What matters is do you know the GOOD NEWS? He is coming soon..oh PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS!

Not wise words produced here from you, Blade. And I protest the idea that ''To focus on sin is unwise or that is all you will see'' as Gods people are called to live a holy life. And what happens when we are not being holy?

The problem in the world today is in fact an acceptance and normalization of sin, by believers. Many professing Christians do not even believe that they are called to live a holy, set apart life dedicated to God. And why is that? Sin. The separation of Church and world has been removed and wicked people have made inroads behind the pulpit.

So actually, not focusing on sin can leave a believer exposed and vulnerable to the dangers of this fallen world and the lost left in their state of unrepentant sin face Gods wrath. Sin needs to be ever watched, not dismissed with apathy.

This thread is dedicated to studying and learning the subject of sin and the effects it has on creation.
 
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All Glory To God

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Man was created in Gods image.

Adam, the first formed human was created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). In the garden Adam was placed and eventually went on to sin. The sin of Adam has had consequences, one of which is the original righteousness that Adam possessed to please God was lost by his defiance. Theologians have debated what effects this would have on future image bearers. Some hold the view of minimal damage, some the image is completely destroyed.

One thing is for certain: The image has changed and it is bad hermeneutics to reference Genesis 1:27 and apply to post fall humanity, or the people born after Adam. Why? Sin has damaged/broken the image and it is no longer how God created it to be (Ecclesiastes 7:29).
 
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