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What is Sin?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by All Glory To God, Jun 29, 2021.

  1. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    You wrote: Why anyone would not want to keep God's laws that He personally spoke and personally wrote with His own finger and stored in the Most Holy of His Temple is beyond me!"

    I responded: So how many animals have you slaughtered today?

    You answered with the above post, which is no answer.

    Keeping God's laws means -- keeping God's laws. Some of these laws had to do with animal sacrifice; I assume that you're not following those laws. So, do you "keep God's laws that He personally spoke and personally wrote with His own finger" or not?
     
  2. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I showed you scripture that states we are no longer required to offer blood sacrifices since our Savior was the perfect sacrificial lamb without blemish.

    Also, I was referring to God's eternal Ten commandments, maybe you can show me where blood sacrifice is in the Ten commandments Exodus 20
     
  3. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Point 1: there is no blood sacrifice is in the Ten commandments, but they are only a small part of the OT law.

    Point 2: so keeping God's law means (to you) keeping some of God's laws, but not others. Interesting!

    You're either dead to the law in Christ Jesus or you're not.

    Romans 3:20-21, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify."
     
  4. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, this is not what I said. I follow all of God's laws and follow the directions from scripture regarding the ones that ended with Jesus as our sacrifice, read the scriptures I quoted.

    I will have to disagree that the Ten commandments are a small part of the OT. Even if they were only mentioned once, they were personally handwritten by our Savior. Not sure why anyone would try to make God's Ten commandments that He personally wrote insignificant. Also, the Ten commandments is referenced throughout the whole bible including one of the last verses right before the Revelations of Jesus Christ our Savior.

    Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
     
  5. Religiot

    Religiot Well-Known Member

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    There's only one Law, and one Lawgiver.
     
  6. Religiot

    Religiot Well-Known Member

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    Simply the obedience of faith.
     
  7. Bro.T

    Bro.T Bible Christian Supporter

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    Yes I agree we are save from ours sins, but keep in mind one must put forth an action which Paul explains in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.

    So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)
     
  8. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    You wrote "I follow all of God's laws and follow the directions from scripture regarding the ones that ended with Jesus as our sacrifice". Aside from the fact that this is self-contradictory...

    You're either under law or under grace. You're under the Old Covenant if you follow the law; you're under grace if you're a Christian. You can't be both.

    Romans 3:19-21, "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
     
  9. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are saved by grace though our faith that is God's gift to give or not. Keeping God's law is a fruit of our faith.

    We are judged though based on our actions

    2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

    Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this is man’s all.14:For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.
     
  10. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    I won't discuss this with you any more. You keep jumping around, quoting a verse from here, a verse from there, out of context , now claiming that salvation equates with works.

    My prayer for you is that you will discover the truth and freedom that exists only in Christ.

    Bye.
     
  11. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Comment posted by mistake...
     
  12. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It’s really not out of context.

    If there are no laws there is no sin so why would we need grace?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2021
  13. All Glory To God

    All Glory To God Well-Known Member

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    What does that mean?

    I see faith as a gift from God. As all humanity lies dead in its sins under the curse of Adam after the fall. The only way to produce faith in Christ is an effectual saving work of Grace, done by God for the fallen sinful creature. So the Holy Spirit will regenerate, guide, sanctify and ultimately change the heart of the person who is born again into a new creature. The person will persevere by the Grace of God, not by meritorious works lest they boast in the presence of God at the day of salvation and judgement. If God does all the work in redemption of the lost, God gets all the Glory. And so our obedience to Christ, our saviour is not out of duty that we must perform well or be condemned but because we love him, because he loved us first. We are his friends.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2021
  14. All Glory To God

    All Glory To God Well-Known Member

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    I agree Paul is addressing past sin in Romans 3:23 but the point he is making in the whole chapter is not security of the believer. Rather making a point all are guilty of sin, Jew and gentile, which he declared previously in verse nine:

    ''What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written''

    In fact the book of Romans is regarded to many as the book which illustrates how all people are guilty before God, for their sin and in need of Gods Grace.

    Because the Hebrews, the Jews that still clung to Moses' teaching had been exposed to the true teaching of Christ they no longer had any excuse to go on any longer without faith in Christ. It doesn't mean they were saved and fell away. Just that they come from the old ways, had the truth revealed to them and now were expected to move on from the old covenant as it is fading away.
     
  15. Religiot

    Religiot Well-Known Member

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    Glad you asked:


    OBEDIENCE THAT IS WITHOUT BELIEF RENDERS WORKS THAT ARE DEAD

    "For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; but Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: when your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; while it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." --Hebrews 3:3-19; 4:1-11

    "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." --Hebrews 6:1-2

    "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" --Hebrews 9:14


    BELIEF THAT IS WITHOUT OBEDIENCE RENDERS FAITH THAT IS DEAD

    "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." --Romans 6:15-23

    "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." --Romans 10:8-17

    "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." --Romans 12:1-2

    "Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost. I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed, through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ." --Romans 15:15-19

    "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." --James 2:14-26


    ALL THINGS REVEALED ARE FOR THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH

    "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: to God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." --Romans 16:25-27

    ONLY THOSE WHO OBEY HIM ARE HIS FRIENDS

    "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." --John 15:14
     
  16. All Glory To God

    All Glory To God Well-Known Member

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    Friend, this is a wall of scripture with little commentary from yourself to state what you believe. Granted, there is some personal input but not much. It's difficult for me to discern what you are trying to communicate in this post.

    I'll just focus on the last paragraph. Jesus says "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." I think the law(s) he has issued to us are as follows:

    John 15:12
    This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

    Galatians 5:14
    For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
     
  17. Religiot

    Religiot Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to hear you refer to the water of life and the bread of life, the inscripturated word of God, as a wall--His children regard it as food and drink.....

    Sorrier still to hear you claim that you could not discern what I believed, for my reply was to your very specific question--I defined it for you, by the word of God, segregating my beliefs by short capitalized titles prior to substantiating them by scripture..... .....your claim is truly incredible.

    Sorriest of all is your usage of scripture: you cite it in part and out of context, twisting it's meaning in an attempt to pacify yourself into a false sense of peace against your willful rejection of sound doctrine.

    --I've told you the truth, that is all I can do, goodbye.
     
  18. All Glory To God

    All Glory To God Well-Known Member

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    So just a recap, the topic of the thread is sin.

    If anyone is interested in further research on the subject, I recommend the book ''Reformed Dogmatics, Vol. 3: Sin and Salvation in Christ'' by Herman Bavinck. The book is from a Reformed perspective but still examines the subject of sin in a way that anyone can get great value from reading it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2021
  19. All Glory To God

    All Glory To God Well-Known Member

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    Another element to the topic of sin is ''concupiscence''. This is clearly stated in the pages of scripture and the amount of times the word appears depends on which Bible translation is used. For example, The KJV uses concupiscence only three times. Whereas a Roman Catholic version ''Douay-Rheims'' Bible translates it nine times.

    Original sin is not just a doctrine constructed by theologians of the past, it's a fact of life. And the basis for a sinful nature, the force, can be traced back to the concupiscence.

    And some verses that (in the KJV) have concupiscence within them.
    Romans 7:8
    Colossians 3:5
    1 Thessalonica 4:5
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
  20. pescador

    pescador Newbie Supporter

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    Another reason to use a modern translation. I have never heard anyone use "concupiscence" in modern English.

    I wonder how many people in this forum had to look up the word's meaning.

    Here is Romans 7:8a, for example, in modern English: "But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of wrong desires." And here is Colossians 3:5, " So put to death whatever in your nature belongs to the earth: sexual immorality, impurity, shameful passion, evil desire, and greed which is idolatry." And here is 1 Thessalonians 4:3-5, " For this is God’s will: that you become holy, that you keep away from sexual immorality, that each of you know how to possess his own body in holiness and honor, not in lustful passion like the Gentiles who do not know God."

    Why deal with obfuscation? To feel pseudo-holy? Notice how much clearer things are when read a) in context and b) in 21st Century English (the language we all use and understand).
     
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