What is Sin?

[BobRyan]

Infants and the unborn people in the womb have not sinned

As I also noted in my post - but they have a sinful nature all the same - and Adam did not.

but what type of nature do they have?

A sinful one... a nature bent toward rebellion
A proclivity to sin

Eph 2
And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

 

[GallagherM]

You may need to do a scripture search about sin. I’ve seen people uses that one God hated Esau.

Then Jesus/Yeshua came who was promised to be a shoot off of the stump of Jesse, meaning Yeshua was going to be an offspring of King David.

To act of though sin hasn’t been paid for is like living in a dark prison cell, miles under the earth; friend with no way of escape.

Thanks and praise be to Yahweh for sending Yeshua, who paid for all of mankinds sin one the cross once and for all people: for all past, present and future sins.

All people have been saved from their sin. Not everyone has faith, in Yeshua however: being saved to the kingdom of God.

 

[GallagherM]

Many people may not realize either the judgement upon the children of disobedience was part of the promise to the the destruction of nation of Israel only. Not America, or Switzerland, or Australia. It’s good to read the Bible but context is highly important.

The children of disobedience heard the truth and was part of the genealogy of pure blood Jewish people; who willingly had Jesus / Yeshua to be crucified just like all the other prophets sent before them who they also killed.

A parable that comes to mind is the Farmer who rented out his vineyards and went rent came the renters killed the ones who came with the message from Yahweh to the nation of Israel. The the Farmer sent his own son as though they would respect him, but no they were greedy so they killed the son too.

What do you think would happen to the renters ? (Chosen nation of Israel- by the God of Israel)

That’s what I believe anyway.

 

[All Glory To God]

God is not in charge of telling the wicked what to do or who to tempt.

Well God gave Satan charge over Job and even set bounds to what he could do. God also sent a lieing spirit to device a king. So it sounds very much like he is in control of all of his creation, including the wicked.

God commanded Adam and Eve not to mess with the Tree of knowledge of good and evil -- and He did not allow Satan any access at all to Adam and Eve other than at that one tree they were commanded not to eat of -- but He left both Lucifer and Adam and Eve - with free will as well as all the angels.

Only 1/3 of the angels "chose" to follow Lucifer - and 2/3 of them chose loyalty to God. Free will does not equal "fail".

I can only imagine Satan had fallen from Gods grace by the time he beguiled Eve. If he had not fallen, then why would this Good Angel beguile Eve? But if he was fallen, that means Gods plan was for Satan to cause the fall.

 

[All Glory To God]

As I also noted in my post - but they have a sinful nature all the same - and Adam did not.



A sinful one... a nature bent toward rebellion
A proclivity to sin

Eph 2
And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

And how sinful exactly? The Bible says we are dead in our sins. And this is not a physical death because we live to hear the message. It's a spiritual death resulting from the fall and being separated from God. Only a divine act of effectual Grace can regenerate the dead. God in his mercy, before the foundation of the world chose who would receive this saving Grace. Not based on human merit but purely on Gods Grace.

That's how sinful!

 

[BobRyan]

Well God gave Satan charge over Job

The text does not say "charge". Rather God said He would allow Satan "Access" to Job.

Job 1:
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.

Satan admits to the fortress of protection God had set about Job and all that he had so that Satan's forces could not get at Job.

Satan then tell God to do something evil -- as if that is the role of God

11 But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.

God refuses to fall for it.

12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

God's statement makes it clear that whatever evil that is about to happen will be Satan's doing - not God and still God "sets a limit" on how far Satan will be allowed to go.

But God does NOT command Satan to DO evil.

I can only imagine Satan had fallen from Gods grace by the time he beguiled Eve. If he had not fallen, then why would this Good Angel beguile Eve?

True - his agenda in the war in heaven was now spread to Earth but even before he tempted Eve - God had limited the great rebel so that only at the forbidden tree could he even have so much as a discussion with Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve could follow God's plan and not go near that tree - Satan would have been defeated - it was "simple"

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
As I also noted in my post - but they have a sinful nature all the same - and Adam did not.

A sinful one... a nature bent toward rebellion
A proclivity to sin

Eph 2
And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

And how sinful exactly? The Bible says we are dead in our sins. And this is not a physical death because we live to hear the message.

The Bible says that the "Drawing of God" John 6 - is fully sufficient to enable the choice to accept the Gospel and Jesus said He draws "All mankind" John 12:32, in fact "convicts the WORLD" John 16.

1 John 2:2 Jesus is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

And that is because "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

Rev 3 - He STANDS at the door and knocks
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne,

-- still it is only "the FEW" of Matt 7 that ultimately make that choice.

John 1:11 "He CAME TO His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Is 5:3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
5 “So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground.

 

[All Glory To God]

You may need to do a scripture search about sin. I’ve seen people uses that one God hated Esau.

Because it's true?

Then Jesus/Yeshua came who was promised to be a shoot off of the stump of Jesse, meaning Yeshua was going to be an offspring of King David.

To act of though sin hasn’t been paid for is like living in a dark prison cell, miles under the earth; friend with no way of escape.

The elects sins have been paid for entirely.

It's funny that you mention darkness as an analogy for people not acknowledging your theology, because the Apostle John uses the same method. Except John contrasts darkness with light, and those without light are lost. I don't think John is communicating all will be saved:

1 John 1
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Thanks and praise be to Yahweh for sending Yeshua, who paid for all of mankinds sin one the cross once and for all people: for all past, present and future sins.

All people have been saved from their sin. Not everyone has faith, in Yeshua however: being saved to the kingdom of God.

Telling people their sins have been forgiven, before they have even made a profession of faith in Christ is surely blasphemy? I don't think you should do that.

 

[GallagherM]

So you your predisposition is that of only the elects sins are paid for. I understand now.

If you read this line slowly you will understand my position.

All people have been saved from their sins (1 John 2:2). Not all people have faith and are saved to the kingdom of heaven. Meaning that there are people out there who have yet to be set free from the prison they are in because of disbelief (Hebrews 3:19).

This scripture is hard to get around as well: 1 Timothy 4:10 for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

 

[All Glory To God]

The text does not say "charge". Rather God said He would allow Satan "Access" to Job.

Job 1:
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.

Satan admits to the fortress of protection God had set about Job and all that he had so that Satan's forces could not get at Job.

Satan then tell God to do something evil -- as if that is the role of God

11 But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.

God refuses to fall for it.

12 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

God's statement makes it clear that whatever evil that is about to happen will be Satan's doing - not God and still God "sets a limit" on how far Satan will be allowed to go.

But God does NOT command Satan to DO evil.





True - his agenda in the war in heaven was now spread to Earth but even before he tempted Eve - God had limited the great rebel so that only at the forbidden tree could he even have so much as a discussion with Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve could follow God's plan and not go near that tree - Satan would have been defeated - it was "simple"

This made me chuckle. Rather than seeing the obvious point I was making about God directly addressing Satan and giving him rule over Job, in a limited form, you quarreled about a word definition. And didn't even address the lieing spirit.

So I think we can actually say that God is in charge of telling the wicked what to do or who to tempt. Although he is not the source of evil himself.

 

[GallagherM]

So I think we can actually say that God is in charge of telling the wicked what to do or who to tempt. Although he is not the source of evil himself.

This is far away from the truth.

13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Sin gives birth to spiritual death. Sin against God is not being loving to God or being loving to your neighbour. It causes spiritual death.

Sin has been paid for but upon knowing that to continue in habitual sin can lead to even a actual early death in the grave I believe. Though the person will have their reward for their faith they will have spiritual loss of reward upon going on wards to God.

If you have no faith you are simply spiritually dead (even though your sins have been paid for).

 

[All Glory To God]

The Bible says that the "Drawing of God" John 6 - is fully sufficient to enable the choice to accept the Gospel and Jesus said He draws "All mankind" John 12:32, in fact "convicts the WORLD" John 16.

1 John 2:2 Jesus is the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

And that is because "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3

Rev 3 - He STANDS at the door and knocks
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne,

-- still it is only "the FEW" of Matt 7 that ultimately make that choice.

John 1:11 "He CAME TO His OWN and His OWN received Him not"

Is 5:3 “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
5 “So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground.

People sin or are depraved, and they are in trouble with God. What type of Grace does a person need to be saved?

 

[BobRyan]

People sin or are depraved, and they are in trouble with God. What type of Grace does a person need to be saved?

God's grace - where Christ stands at the door and knocks , where the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, and where the drawing of God ENABLES choice.

 

[GallagherM]

@All Glory To God I think the point you are missing is that all people sin. Christians sin... and that was why Jesus Christ was sent to take care of Sin; that as believers we can live by the spirit if people walk in faith and walk in spirit Christ in them will not sin (Galatians 2:20).

However we still live in this body of flesh that has sin with-in it. When a person sins they are normally reacting in their flesh and they if they are a believer who sin against God or their neighbor will become spiritually poor again and they can build that spirit back up by calling out to God for deliverance of whatever has happened and God will help them and restore them spiritually.

 

[All Glory To God]

So you your predisposition is that of only the elects sins are paid for. I understand now.

If you read this line slowly you will understand my position.

All people have been saved from their sins (1 John 2:2). Not all people have faith and are saved to the kingdom of heaven. Meaning that there are people out there who have yet to be set free from the prison they are in because of disbelief (Hebrews 3:19).

This scripture is hard to get around as well: 1 Timothy 4:10 for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

I understand your position and I responded to them, I just think it's blasphemy to tell people their sins are paid for before they make a profession of faith. Because I don't think all will be saved, so effectively what you could be doing is telling the lost/reprobate they have had Christ not only die for them but justify them to the father.

 

[BobRyan]

This made me chuckle. Rather than seeing the obvious point I was making about God directly addressing Satan and giving him rule over Job

I did directly address it by saying there is no such text as "God giving Satan rule over Job" and also no text about placing "Job in Satan's charge" - how much more obvious could this be?

See the details in Job 1 that I already pointed out.

And didn't even address the lieing spirit.

The lying spirit reference is not from the book of Job.

Titus 1: 1 "Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

God permits wickedness He does not dictate it.

 

[All Glory To God]

God's grace - where Christ stands at the door and knocks , where the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, and where the drawing of God ENABLES choice.

So God see's people in their sin, (he loves them?) but won't take action? He waits why people who are wicked as Hell try to convert themself? This is your belief on Gods Grace and what it takes to overcome sin?

 

[GallagherM]

Okay. That doesn't bother me if you believe it is blasphemy or not; but we are all sinners and no one is good. The only thing that is good that comes from believers is from God; by and through the spirit of christ/holy spirit by faith and if we walk by spirit we will love God, and we will love others.

Though those in faith do not have to look at themselves as sinners (but are not to forget that they are) ~ saved by grace through faith that is a gift from God in our response to believe and accept the gift from God and no one can boast about anything they do (cause we do not do nothing good.).

Believers can see themselves in their new identity in Christ Jesus and not just their old self by dying to the old man in baptism of the death of Christ and being raised again with Christ; And in the born again believer a : new man (inner man/inner woman new spiritual creation) is made. As a son or daughter of God who are led by the spirit.

@All Glory To God what are your thoughts on this?

 

[All Glory To God]

@All Glory To God I think the point you are missing is that all people sin. Christians sin... and that was why Jesus Christ was sent to take care of Sin; that as believers we can live by the spirit if people walk in faith and walk in spirit Christ in them will not sin (Galatians 2:20).

However we still live in this body of flesh that has sin with-in it. When a person sins they are normally reacting in their flesh and they if they are a believer who sin against God or their neighbor will become spiritually poor again and they can build that spirit back up by calling out to God for deliverance of whatever has happened and God will help them and restore them spiritually.

I know all people sin. I know Christians have sin whilst they are being sanctified by the Holy spirit.

Anyone says they have no sin is a liar.

 

[All Glory To God]

I did directly address it by saying there is no such text as "God giving Satan rule over Job" and also no text about placing "Job in Satan's charge" - how much more obvious could this be?

See the details in Job 1 that I already pointed out.



The lying spirit reference is not from the book of Job.

Titus 1: 1 "Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, 2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

God permits wickedness He does not dictate it.

God does not ''permit'' anything, he decrees all things.

And in regard to the lieing spirit, this is the reference (1 Kings 22:22) for you to look over in your own time. It is not Titus it is in the Old Testament. I did mention the spirit deceived the king but that's ok. No problem, I don't need an answer for that I just offer it as a point of reference.