What is morality?

Ophiolite

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Any attempt I might make would be risible. Instead I offer you the helping hand of the experts, in this instance an entry in Stanford University's online Encyclopedia of Philosophy. The site has a further 712 articles discussing some aspect of morality. Here is the definition; hope it helps:
The Definition of Morality
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I would like to gain more perspective on this topic, so please give me your thoughts about these questions. What is morality and how do you define it? Where does it come from? Does it matter?
Morality is the true knowlege of right and wrong. We are made in God's image so the basic premise of morality is instilled in us naturally regardless of the spiritual belief in that God. It matters because we have free will. Some choose to observe the God given morality within them and some choose not to.
 
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Ken-1122

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I would like to gain more perspective on this topic, so please give me your thoughts about these questions. What is morality and how do you define it? Where does it come from? Does it matter?
What is morality and how do I define it?
Morality is the ability to understand the consequences of actions; and how those actions effect me and my neighbor. And it starts from the position that what is helpful to me and my neighbor is good/moral, and that which is harmful to me and my neighbor is bad/immoral.
Where does it come from?
Morality is the result of human thoughts; so it comes from the mind.
Does it matter?
It matters to me.
 
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stevil

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I would like to gain more perspective on this topic, so please give me your thoughts about these questions. What is morality and how do you define it? Where does it come from? Does it matter?
Morality in my view is a commonly accepted system based on vague concepts.
"Right" and "wrong"

Not in a factual sense such as 2 + 2 = 4 is right and 2 + 2 = 5 is wrong.
But more along the lines of "is it right for me to perform action A?"
People make such judgement calls. To the same question some people might answer "it is right", some might answer "it is wrong" while others might answer "it is neither right nor wrong, it is neutral"
e.g.
  • some people might say it is morally right to give a diamond ring as an engagement symbol, they might consider the symbolic traditions of love and a show of offering value to a person you love as the right thing to do.
  • Others might consider it morally wrong, considering the way diamonds are mined and trafficked and the materialistic nature of showing off wealth.
  • Others might consider it a neutral choice, doesn't really matter, just do what suits you as a couple.

Typically for whatever reason people determine "right" there will also be others that also determine "right" but they might be determining this same answer for different justifications. They are all lumped into the "right" basket on this particular question, but the roots of their moral justifications could be completely different and so on other questions the same people might differ from each other.

To have a morally relevant event, it appears to me you need the following conditions:
1. Moral agents - conscious beings who are judged by the "moral judge(s)" as being capable of making personal judgement calls on whether their own actions resulting from their own free choices are the "right thing to do", "the wrong thing to do" or "neutral". It is assumed that these moral agents should be prioritising on doing the "right thing" (but is the "right thing" what the moral agent determines as "right" or what the "moral judge" determines as right?)
2. Moral judges - conscious beings who subscribe to and are willing and capable of making personal judgement calls on whether actions resulting from choices are the "right thing to do", "the wrong thing to do" or "neutral". This is the person making the judgement call either of actions and choices made by themselves or actions and choices made by others.
3. A free choice to be made by the moral agent. If the moral agent had no choice, or was tricked or coerced/forced under high duress then there was no free choice.
4. A moral framework for the "moral judge". People don't pick "right", "wrong" or "neutral" at random they base it on some kind of framework or perhaps on a mix of different things. e.g. idealism, religious beliefs, learned behaviour, empathy, altruism, priorities etc.
5. A moral judgement made by the "moral judge"
6. I don't think it is necessary for the "moral agent" to actually have a moral framework, it is just assumed by the "moral judge" that the "moral agent" does have a reasonable and acceptable (acceptable by the "moral judge") framework. - This is a matter of judging others based on your own personal standards and beliefs as if those others should be behaving as if they hold your own standards and beliefs.

So drilling into the "Moral framework"
Where do we get our moral standards from?
Humans are social animals who interact with each other and live together in societies. Because of this we can and do often make choices and take actions which affect others. Sometimes we do things which are detrimental to ourselves, sometimes we do things which are detrimental to others. Sometimes things that benefit ourselves are also detrimental to others. We are forced to live in a reality of limited resources, this forces us to compete against others for those resources (be it land, money, education, love etc)

So from early on in our young lives, our parent teach us the concept of right and wrong. They want us to have successful lives, they typically want to be proud to have brought up children who contribute positively towards society. This is a form of idealism.

On a practical level we also learn a form of morality. At a young age a kid might think that they see a toy that they want. They don't care that another kid is playing with it, so they reach out and snatch it. But then the other kid might snatch it back, or they might hit the kid that snatched it, or they might cry and an adult comes by and tells the snatcher "how would you feel if someone snatched a toy from you?" So pretty early on we learn that we have to be considerate of and nice to others, we can't just do whatever we want.

We are also drowned with stories about moral lessons from tv, books and movies and some people are brought into organisations such as religious ones who have a strongly defined set of "moral rules and concepts"

Over time, as the world has globalised many or us have learned to include all sorts of people into our moral framework. Initially it might have been wrong to do anything detrimental to people in our own village but OK to pillage from our neighbours, but then all our neighbours banded together and attacked our village, so we learn that we need alliances and need to include the idea that it is wrong to do anything detrimental to our neighbours, so we then went into expansion, we gathered our neighbours, formed an army and attacked foreign lands. But then foreign countries banded together and attacked us. Over time we learned to include not just our village, our countrymen, our "race", but all of humanity in our ideas of who to be nice to.

But anyway, it is hard to exactly pin down moral framework because each person differs with regards to their own moral framework. No two people will agree entirely all the time.

Myself, I'm a moral nihilist. I don't believe their are any moral truths and I don't believe a person telling me my actions are "morally wrong" have any clear meaning. The vagueness of such statements makes them virtually useless.
 
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eleos1954

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Morality in my view is a commonly accepted system based on vague concepts.
"Right" and "wrong"

Not in a factual sense such as 2 + 2 = 4 is right and 2 + 2 = 5 is wrong.
But more along the lines of "is it right for me to perform action A?"
People make such judgement calls. To the same question some people might answer "it is right", some might answer "it is wrong" while others might answer "it is neither right nor wrong, it is neutral"
e.g.
  • some people might say it is morally right to give a diamond ring as an engagement symbol, they might consider the symbolic traditions of love and a show of offering value to a person you love as the right thing to do.
  • Others might consider it morally wrong, considering the way diamonds are mined and trafficked and the materialistic nature of showing off wealth.
  • Others might consider it a neutral choice, doesn't really matter, just do what suits you as a couple.

Typically for whatever reason people determine "right" there will also be others that also determine "right" but they might be determining this same answer for different justifications. They are all lumped into the "right" basket on this particular question, but the roots of their moral justifications could be completely different and so on other questions the same people might differ from each other.

To have a morally relevant event, it appears to me you need the following conditions:
1. Moral agents - conscious beings who are judged by the "moral judge(s)" as being capable of making personal judgement calls on whether their own actions resulting from their own free choices are the "right thing to do", "the right thing to do" or "neutral". It is assumed that these moral agents should be prioritising on doing the "right thing" (but is the "right thing" what the moral agent determines as "right" or what the "moral judge" determines as right?)
2. Moral judges - conscious beings who subscribe to and are willing and capable of making personal judgement calls on whether actions resulting from choices are the "right thing to do", "the right thing to do" or "neutral". This is the person making the judgement call either of actions and choices made by themselves or actions and choices made by others.
3. A free choice to be made by the moral agent. If the moral agent had no choice, or was tricked or coerced/forced under high duress then there was no free choice.
4. A moral framework for the "moral judge". People don't pick "right", "wrong" or "neutral" at random they base it on some kind of framework or perhaps on a mix of different things. e.g. idealism, religious beliefs, learned behaviour, empathy, altruism, priorities etc.
5. A moral judgement made by the "moral judge"
6. I don't think it is necessary for the "moral agent" to actually have a moral framework, it is just assumed by the "moral judge" that the "moral agent" does have a reasonable and acceptable (acceptable by the "moral judge") framework. - This is a matter of judging others based on your own personal standards and beliefs as if those others should be behaving as if they hold your own standards and beliefs.

So drilling into the "Moral framework"
Where do we get our moral standards from?
Humans are social animals who interact with each other and live together in societies. Because of this we can and do often make choices and take actions which affect others. Sometimes we do things which are detrimental to ourselves, sometimes we do things which are detrimental to others. Sometimes things that benefit ourselves are also detrimental to others. We are forced to live in a reality of limited resources, this forces us to compete against others for those resources (be it land, money, education, love etc)

So from early on in our young lives, our parent teach us the concept of right and wrong. They want us to have successful lives, they typically want to be proud to have brought up children who contribute positively towards society. This is a form of idealism.

On a practical level we also learn a form of morality. At a young age a kid might think that they see a toy that they want. They don't care that another kid is playing with it, so they reach out and snatch it. But then the other kid might snatch it back, or they might hit the kid that snatched it, or they might cry and an adult comes by and tells the snatcher "how would you feel if someone snatched a toy from you?" So pretty early on we learn that we have to be considerate of and nice to others, we can't just do whatever we want.

We are also drowned with stories about moral lessons from tv, books and movies and some people are brought into organisations such as religious ones who have a strongly defined set of "moral rules and concepts"

Over time, as the world has globalised many or us have learned to include all sorts of people into our moral framework. Initially it might have been wrong to do anything detrimental to people in our own village but OK to pillage from our neighbours, but then all our neighbours banded together and attacked our village, so we learn that we need alliances and need to include the idea that it is wrong to do anything detrimental to our neighbours, so we then went into expansion, we gathered our neighbours, formed an army and attacked foreign lands. But then foreign countries banded together and attacked us. Over time we learned to include not just our village, our countrymen, our "race", but all of humanity in our ideas of who to be nice to.

But anyway, it is hard to exactly pin down moral framework because each person differs with regards to their own moral framework. No two people will agree entirely all the time.

Myself, I'm a moral nihilist. I don't believe their are any moral truths and I don't believe a person telling me my actions are "morally wrong" have any clear meaning. The vagueness of such statements makes them virtually useless.

a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do ... each decides based on various reasons.

Do no harm ... physical or mental damage to self and/or to others.

No two people will agree entirely all the time.

True ... but we can/could agree to disagree without malice ;o)
 
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stevil

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True ... but we can/could agree to disagree without malice ;o)
Having some self awareness of how your choices and actions affect others is obviously a trait that others desire you to have. They want you to consider the impact on them.
As a consequence, how they behave and their own consideration as to how their choices and actions impact you comes back at you. They reciprocate your considerations. You basically influence your society and your own experience within society.

But, on the dark side of morality.
Many a war has been justified by one side insisting they are fighting for good and fighting against evil.
When a person has a massive attachment to their own perception of good, they can see others as bad, they can then seek to oppress or even fight others in order to force them to behave according to their own perception of good (in the name of good).
"The road to hell is paved with Good intentions"
 
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ViaCrucis

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I would like to gain more perspective on this topic, so please give me your thoughts about these questions. What is morality and how do you define it? Where does it come from? Does it matter?

In the most literal sense morality is "right" or "appropriate conduct"; Cicero coined the word to translate the Greek ethikos--"ethical".

While we often make a distinction between morality and ethics, these terms have been used interchangeably for a long time. Having said that, I generally prefer to speak of ethics than morality; and if push came to shove I would probably describe morality as applied ethics. In practice: I shouldn't steal because I recognize stealing is wrong and hurtful. I recognize that stealing is wrong and hurtful, that's an ethical principle; I do not steal because I recognize that stealing is wrong, that's morality.

I believe there is objective good, this is a religious belief I adhere to. That objective good is rooted in the innate character and being of That which I confess to be God; and what the Christian Scriptures, the Creeds, and the historic teachings of the Church catholic have maintained for two millennia. God as that Chief Good from which all that is good comes, wills good for the cosmos. God's will for good is His Law, which can be summed up in the Commandment that we ought to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. It is called the Great Commandment on account that these two parts are not divided, we love God by loving our neighbor; how we treat our neighbor made in God's image is how we treat God.

As such, as a Christian, the standard for Christian ethical and moral teaching is God's Law and the righteous example of Jesus Christ Himself. When I say "God's Law" I want to be clear that I'm not talking of "Old Testament law", or more; the Torah was a specific set of instructions established with a specific people as part of a specific covenant. By "God's Law" I am not excluding the Torah, as Christianity has always looked to the Ten Commandments as a helpful rubric that expands upon the Chief Command that we love God and neighbor. I simply want to carefully explain that when I speak of God's Law, I am not suggesting that it is a moral imperative that we circumcise, or restrict ourselves from certain foods--those are quite specific instructions for a specific people. Whereas I am speaking of proper conduct in regard to other human persons and our behavior and conduct and attitudes here and now--which ought to be ruled by love, mercy, and justice.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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eleos1954

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Having some self awareness of how your choices and actions affect others is obviously a trait that others desire you to have. They want you to consider the impact on them.
As a consequence, how they behave and their own consideration as to how their choices and actions impact you comes back at you. They reciprocate your considerations. You basically influence your society and your own experience within society.

But, on the dark side of morality.
Many a war has been justified by one side insisting they are fighting for good and fighting against evil.
When a person has a massive attachment to their own perception of good, they can see others as bad, they can then seek to oppress or even fight others in order to force them to behave according to their own perception of good (in the name of good).
"The road to hell is paved with Good intentions"

Seems to me most wars occur due to competition over territory and resources, historical rivalries and grievances, and in self defense against an aggressor or a perceived potential aggressor.
 
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The happy Objectivist

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I would like to gain more perspective on this topic, so please give me your thoughts about these questions. What is morality and how do you define it? Where does it come from? Does it matter?
Morality is a code of values and principles to guide one's choices and actions, which actions determine the course of one's life. These values are not determined by man but by nature and they must be discovered by a process of reason guided by logic starting with sense perception and proceeding to conceptualization. It only matters if one wants to live and have a great life. The need for morality stems from two basic facts: 1. Man's life is conditional, he faces the alternative of life vs. death. 2. Man has no automatic knowledge of what values he needs to achieve in order to sustain his life. He needs to discover what values he needs and learn how to achieve them by an objective method, i.e., a method that works with facts and is in accordance with the type of consciousness man possesses.
 
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apogee

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Morality in my view is a commonly accepted system based on vague concepts.
"Right" and "wrong"
....
Myself, I'm a moral nihilist. I don't believe their are any moral truths and I don't believe a person telling me my actions are "morally wrong" have any clear meaning. The vagueness of such statements makes them virtually useless.

Yeah, although when I steal your donut and stab you in the foot with a plastic fork, I'm willing to wager that your inner 'moral absolutist' will probably make an appearance.

(note: for any over-zealous moderators out there, this is not an actual threat it is a playful illustration...I have no plastic forks currently in my possession, I do not know if stevil has any donuts)
 
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stevil

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Yeah, although when I steal your donut and stab you in the foot with a plastic fork, I'm willing to wager that your inner 'moral absolutist' will probably make an appearance.
I won't get upset merely because what you did is morally wrong.
But I will get upset because selfishly I want that donut and I know if I let you take it from me now, what is to stop you taking other things from me in the future.
And of course if you cause me physical pain and damage, I will be upset and see you as a threat to my own well being.


Moral nihilism doesn't mean that I don't want to defend myself, my property, or that I don't want laws in the society within which I live.
It just means I cast aside the notion of morally right and morally wrong and replace it with much more tangible reasoning.
 
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apogee

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I won't get upset merely because what you did is morally wrong.
But I will get upset because selfishly I want that donut and I know if I let you take it from me now, what is to stop you taking other things from me in the future.
And of course if you cause me physical pain and damage, I will be upset and see you as a threat to my own well being.

Absolutely, although I'm unlikely to do any such thing, not because I recognise theft or inflicting pain to be morally wrong (I'm no less a nihilist in that sense), I would reject it for far more emotive reasons.

Moral nihilism doesn't mean that I don't want to defend myself, my property, or that I don't want laws in the society within which I live.

Of course, it is natural to place value upon survival and stability.

It just means I cast aside the notion of morally right and morally wrong and replace it with much more tangible reasoning.

I cast aside the notion of 'morally right' and 'morally wrong' too, but I'm not convinced that there is more tangible reasoning.
 
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stevil

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Absolutely, although I'm unlikely to do any such thing, not because I recognise theft or inflicting pain to be morally wrong (I'm no less a nihilist in that sense), I would reject it for far more emotive reasons.
OK. Why don't I go around stealing and hurting people?
I recognise that stealing from others risks my lifelong reputation as a trusted person
I recognise that if we allow people to go around stealing from each other then society will be much less productive as we will need to stay home and guard our stuff rather then go to work.
I recognise that stealing from each other will escalate into violence as we fight over our stuff. If I avoid violence and avoid a violent society then I am much less likely to be harmed.



Of course, it is natural to place value upon survival and stability.
For ourselves and our loved ones yes


I cast aside the notion of 'morally right' and 'morally wrong' too, but I'm not convinced that there is more tangible reasoning.
How about consequential-ism? Recognising tangible consequences of our actions.
If I go around stealing things, then people see me as a threat and come to take back their stuff, and either lock me up or throw me out of their society?
How about supporting a society with rules against theivery and murder because I want a safe and productive society to live in. I want to be safe, I want to own stuff and accumulate stuff, so I come to a compromise, setup a law which stops others stealing from me, but also stops me from stealing from others. This way people can go to work, go on holidays etc. Does that sound tangible enough, reasoned enough rather than stealing bad, murder bad?
 
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apogee

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OK. Why don't I go around stealing and hurting people?
I recognise that stealing from others risks my lifelong reputation as a trusted person
I recognise that if we allow people to go around stealing from each other then society will be much less productive as we will need to stay home and guard our stuff rather then go to work.
I recognise that stealing from each other will escalate into violence as we fight over our stuff. If I avoid violence and avoid a violent society then I am much less likely to be harmed.

I can get on board with this, all good stuff, by 'good' I just mean useful of course, in that it fits quite neatly with my subjective values, which are certainly not 'bad', not even in a Michael Jackson sense of the word.

If we can recruit a few more people to sign up to this we might have the basis for a social contract, and then we can really get going codifying this into system of government. We could maybe set up an association of like minded individuals and call ourselves the Democratic Nihilist Party or maybe the Nihilistic Democratic Party...or something else...I guess it doesn't really matter what we call it.


For ourselves and our loved ones yes

Yep I'm totally in agreement here, I think I'd probably have to be either isolated, mentally ill, or a bit of a Psychopath not to be.

How about consequential-ism? Recognising tangible consequences of our actions.
If I go around stealing things, then people see me as a threat and come to take back their stuff, and either lock me up or throw me out of their society?
How about supporting a society with rules against theivery and murder because I want a safe and productive society to live in. I want to be safe, I want to own stuff and accumulate stuff, so I come to a compromise, setup a law which stops others stealing from me, but also stops me from stealing from others. This way people can go to work, go on holidays etc. Does that sound tangible enough, reasoned enough rather than stealing bad, murder bad?

This sounds like a great idea, is it ok if I just jot some of this down? nothing too fancy maybe just bullet points...

1. Do not steal stuff from other people
2. Do not kill people
3. Do not lie to people

Just need to figure out what to do with the feckless, mentally ill, isolated, psychopathic or disenfranchised masses that might not be willing to comply with our very reasonable expectations. I guess we could probably just lock them up, indefinitely preferably, just in case. Although that might be a bit tricky and expensive, perhaps just throw them out of society like you said, I mean it's their own fault, just not entirely sure what the consequences of that might be...if only there were a continent somewhere really far away, that we could permanently 'deposit' them.
 
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Joyous Song

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I would like to gain more perspective on this topic, so please give me your thoughts about these questions. What is morality and how do you define it? Where does it come from? Does it matter?


By the dictionary definition, its good acts instead of wrong ones but that too vague. I think something I was taught works better. I was told always to say, “May no one become less or harmed by coming into my presence.”

Morality then is looking at your actions in light of how they effect others so as to not cause stumble. Its not an easy task to follow, because we are inherently selfish and prone to self love or self absorption. Even self inflected suicide is wrong because it hurts those we leave behind. Gluttony leads to illness causing us to become a burden to others.

And doing no harm does not mean enabling another person. Sometimes tough love seems harmful from the outside but discipline leads to greater happiness than foolishness or evil which is harmful. Yet to truly do not evil or harm, to act morally in all things, one needs to see perfectly into the human heart. I’ve not found many Christians with that kind of vision, including myself.

So this is what makes defining morality so very hard. It really depends on the specific situation and perfect vision; which is humanly impossible to achieve without Divine intervention. This is also why we are warned not to judge another in so many passages. We simply cannot see perfectly each end and will makes mistakes. So remaining humble at all times, and hesitant to judge another actions is likely a requisite as well in judging what is truly moral of immoral.
 
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stevil

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This sounds like a great idea, is it ok if I just jot some of this down? nothing too fancy maybe just bullet points...

1. Do not steal stuff from other people
2. Do not kill people
3. Do not lie to people
You obviously don't get the point, hence your very weird, and probably sarcastic response.
Anyway, maybe it helps to show what laws wouldn't be supported in a system where we cast aside the useless idea of moral right and moral wrong.

Instead of having a government creating a moral branch of the police force and coercing (by force and threat of imprisonment) people to behave morally (whose morals are we going to force onto people?).
Instead of such a random and controlling for seemingly no purpose, we tie in real consequences.

If the purpose of government is to create a Safe, Stable and thriving society, then they must come up with tangible reasons for their laws that control people in the society.

Stealing would make society unsafe and would stop society from thriving as we wouldn't go to work, but instead would stay home clutching an arsenal of weaponry to protect our stuff.
Killing people would obviously make society unsafe.
Lying to people, in general is fine. "Do these pants make my bottom look big?" "No dear, you like mighty fine, Mmmmm, Mmmmm", but can become problematic with fraud etc which is a form of stealing.

Things like gay marriage become quite clear under this system. If two people of the same gender marry each other, it does not make society unsafe, or unthriving, or unstable. So it doesn't matter if people think it is morally right or morally wrong. The government would have no mandate to outlaw it.

Similar of abortion. It doesn't make society unsafe or unthriving or unstable. So regardless of where you stand on the morality of it, it is none of the government's business.

Same for prostitution.
 
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apogee

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You obviously don't get the point, hence your very weird, and probably sarcastic response.
Anyway, maybe it helps to show what laws wouldn't be supported in a system where we cast aside the useless idea of moral right and moral wrong.

Perhaps, I'm just not really so sure that you have cast such useless ideas aside, you seem to me to be far more moral than you would have people believe - to your credit, perhaps. You certainly seem to exhibit a very strong sense of right and wrong.

Instead of having a government creating a moral branch of the police force and coercing (by force and threat of imprisonment) people to behave morally (whose morals are we going to force onto people?).
Instead of such a random and controlling for seemingly no purpose, we tie in real consequences.

If the purpose of government is to create a Safe, Stable and thriving society, then they must come up with tangible reasons for their laws that control people in the society.

Stealing would make society unsafe and would stop society from thriving as we wouldn't go to work, but instead would stay home clutching an arsenal of weaponry to protect our stuff.
Killing people would obviously make society unsafe.
Lying to people, in general is fine. "Do these pants make my bottom look big?" "No dear, you like mighty fine, Mmmmm, Mmmmm", but can become problematic with fraud etc which is a form of stealing.

This doesn't seem terribly dissimilar from how Liberal(western) democracies currently function.

Things like gay marriage become quite clear under this system. If two people of the same gender marry each other, it does not make society unsafe, or unthriving, or unstable. So it doesn't matter if people think it is morally right or morally wrong. The government would have no mandate to outlaw it.

Similar of abortion. It doesn't make society unsafe or unthriving or unstable. So regardless of where you stand on the morality of it, it is none of the government's business.

Same for prostitution.

I could be wrong but I think that this is where you perceive a 'moral' threat, and what you would take issue with (from a 'moral' standpoint actually, rather than from a 'nihilistic' one) I'm not unsympathetic by the way, in fact I might share some of your concerns.
 
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stevil

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This doesn't seem terribly dissimilar from how Liberal(western) democracies currently function.
When secular nations do away with religious ideals and religious morality and instead look to govern in terms of accepting a society of people with various beliefs and non beliefs, they accept diversity, and they accept the idea of letting people make their own life decisions. Rather than forcing the governed people to live upto someone's idea of morality.


I could be wrong but I think that this is where you perceive a 'moral' threat, and what you would take issue with (from a 'moral' standpoint actually, rather than from a 'nihilistic' one) I'm not unsympathetic by the way, in fact I might share some of your concerns.
Don't get hung up on the term "nihilism", but instead try to work out a way where disputes with regards to challenges to law and putting boundaries on the power of government can be sourced.

In USA they have their Constitution, the law makers are sometimes challenged and their laws may be struck down as being unconstitutional. It is a decent approach where those in power can't just do whatever they want.

I am just promoting a defining of the purpose of government, and having that on safety, stability and thriving of society rather than in trying to get a moral society. Morality is too ambiguous and gives too much power to the government, especially when it is govt who gets to define what is moral and what is not.
 
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apogee

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When secular nations do away with religious ideals and religious morality and instead look to govern in terms of accepting a society of people with various beliefs and non beliefs, they accept diversity, and they accept the idea of letting people make their own life decisions. Rather than forcing the governed people to live upto someone's idea of morality.

I'm all for separating church from state, I think this is healthiest for both parties, although the US and UK examples don't lend much credence to my perspective on this. We also have no shortage of examples of secular nations that have done away with religious ideals and religious morality but do not do any of the following....

look to govern in terms of accepting a society of people with various beliefs and non beliefs, they accept diversity, and they accept the idea of letting people make their own life decisions. Rather than forcing the governed people to live upto someone's idea of morality

This isn't intended as a counter to your argument, just a recognition that what you are suggesting does not necessarily follow, in fact I'm struggling to think of an example where it really does.

In USA they have their Constitution, the law makers are sometimes challenged and their laws may be struck down as being unconstitutional. It is a decent approach where those in power can't just do whatever they want.

I agree, it's evidently proved itself to be a pretty robust system in recent years.

I am just promoting a defining of the purpose of government, and having that on safety, stability and thriving of society rather than in trying to get a moral society. Morality is too ambiguous and gives too much power to the government, especially when it is govt who gets to define what is moral and what is not.

I would agree, it's not the job of government to define what is and is not moral, although I'm not aware of any politicians that would really agree.
 
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