What is love?

[razzelflabben]

That you have to twist yourself into knots to excuse immoral acts committed by God. You have now taken up the Nuremberg Defense, "We just take orders". It didn't work for Nazi war criminals. Do you know why?

wow, that is no where close to what I actually did say...you need to sit down and hold your tongue before you hurt yourself with all the gymnastics you are trying to get that from what I said.

Oh well...what I would expect from posts like you have been offering. Just because the God of the bible isn't about morality but is about justice and grace, doesn't mean I am making excuses, taking orders, or any other non sense you want to attribute to the discussion...it means that I set aside my bias and looked at scripture and said, "tell me who this God of the Bible really is, not who I have been told He is, not who I want Him to be, but who He really is." I personally found quite a few surprises.

That's what the biblical authors did.

like I said, even if we play this game with you, even if we accept that the biblical authors made God up, you still have a problem, because if you reinvent the God they "made up" we are no longer talking about the God they "made up" and are now talking about some god you made up. None of us can tell you what the god you want to make up is all about because you alone can tell us about your imaginations. But even if God is made up, there is a source of understanding who He is so we can test to see if they got it right or not...that source is the Bible. As such, if you want to talk about the God of the bible, you have to talk about the one you believe they made up not the one you are inventing in your mind as we speak.

See how nicely that works out...for example in the case of morality, you still have to prove that the God that you believe is made up by the biblical authors is about morality rather than justice. The only way you can do that is through scripture since they are the ones that if He is made up who would have made Him up. Unless of course you want to claim to be one of the authors of the bible, you know, men who died long ago...in that case, we could recommend psychological help.

A just deity does not slaughter babies to punish adults for their crimes.

wow...so again with the reinvention of what was said...in God's perspective, they just changed address. In fact, the true believer sees it that way as well. Death isn't the end, but the beginning according to scripture. In fact, according to scripture, this is not our home. So to you, changing addresses is slaughter....how did you ever move out of your parents home? I guess you still live with them, cause moving would be slaughter? I'm guessing you didn't live on college campus too, cause you didn't want to be slaughtered...unfortunately for your argument people move all the time and don't believe for one second that the move was some kind of slaughter of them. How sad that you think it is....oh wait...that's right, you refuse to see through different eyes, you think that everyone who thinks differently than you do must be evil...which is a whole new level of sad if you ask me.

Now that we have all that non sense out of the way, how about we talk about the God of the Bible not the god you are making up in your mind?

The God of the Bible will do fine. That is the God I am talking about, the one who orders genocide and the slaughter of children.

you pretend to talk about the God of the Bible but you refuse to show the claims you make of Him as claims found in scripture of Him. Until you start talking about the God of the bible rather than the god you are making up in your head, I fear there is nothing more for us to talk about.

The God of the Bible is not a just deity.

prove it ! Show how He was unjust for putting rapist/murderers/kidnappers in jail. That should be fun...

Apparently, love is killing your children and making you burn in a lake of fire.

We aren't talking about killing your children and making you burn in a lake of fire, now are we...we are talking about putting children of rapist/murderers/kidnappers in good loving homes while their parents serve life sentences in jail. And somehow you think that is evil and yet there is an entire world out there of people who think you are wrong and you want to call them all insane....how truly sad.

Now, are you ready to talk rather than just bash? I really would love to get back to talking about Love like the OP is asking us to do.

 

[Loudmouth]

wow, that is no where close to what I actually did say...you need to sit down and hold your tongue before you hurt yourself with all the gymnastics you are trying to get that from what I said.

It is written throughout your posts. No matter what God does you will claim that it is just because you start with the assumption that God is just.

Just because the God of the bible isn't about morality but is about justice and grace,

God isn't about justice, either. Killing children for the sins of adults is not justice.

doesn't mean I am making excuses, taking orders, or any other non sense you want to attribute to the discussion...it means that I set aside my bias and looked at scripture and said, "tell me who this God of the Bible really is, not who I have been told He is, not who I want Him to be, but who He really is."

The God of the Bible is a character invented by the authors of the Bible. What you are getting is a human perspective of a God that avenges the wrongs that they perceive being done to them.

like I said, even if we play this game with you, even if we accept that the biblical authors made God up, you still have a problem, because if you reinvent the God they "made up" we are no longer talking about the God they "made up" and are now talking about some god you made up.

We are talking about a human perspective, not a supernatural one.

Now that we have all that non sense out of the way, how about we talk about the God of the Bible not the god you are making up in your mind?

The God of the Bible orders the slaughter of children. That is not justice.

Show how He was unjust for putting rapist/murderers/kidnappers in jail.

Ordering the slaughter of children is not just.

 

[razzelflabben]

It is written throughout your posts. No matter what God does you will claim that it is just because you start with the assumption that God is just.

and yet repeatedly I tell you that I do not believe we have enough evidence to make a judgement call as to what God did or didn't do...so how do you go from, "we don't have enough information to judge the actions of God" to "No matter what God does you will claim that it is just because you start with the assumption that God is just."? SEriously, how do you not see that those two things are contrary to one another....I say, I will not judge, all I can do is measure (which is what justice is, a measure) and you say, no, that isn't what you are saying you are saying the opposite...I am pretty sure I would be the authority on what I believe and am saying not you. But then again, maybe that is why you are here, you want to inflame others into emotions like your posts suggest you have as pointed out with specific responses you did not offer correction of. Hum....

God isn't about justice, either. Killing children for the sins of adults is not justice.

what children did He kill...oh that's right, your talking about your made up god again. Please find a way to make sure we know which god/God you are talking about. Your entering a different god into the discussion is confusing.

Yes, your god is evil, that is why I chose to follow the God of the bible. That being said, I do not make excuses for Him, nor do I judge Him. I do try to understand Him, cause I personally think that a God who created everything and understand it better than we will ever hope to, is capable of thinking differently than I do and maybe, just maybe with all the information He possesses, it is my thinking that is wrong, not His...but that is my premise, the only way to know for sure is to measure....but what confuses me is why you are so afraid to measure if you are so sure you are right? I mean, if I was sure I was right, I would welcome measuring to evidence my claim, not run from it like your posts insist on doing. It really is quite confusing why you refuse to measure God's actions against what is JUST and what is LOVE, both things He claims to be.

The God of the Bible is a character invented by the authors of the Bible. What you are getting is a human perspective of a God that avenges the wrongs that they perceive being done to them.

doesn't change what I am telling you. If He is the made up God of the Bible, you still have to test the God of the bible not the invented god of your mind. The only way to do that is to see what the bible claims and test those claims. You refuse to test them, which suggests to me that you know your wrong, but hey, until you confess that as another poster eventually confessed to make up a different god, we can only look at what your posts sound like they are suggesting.

We are talking about a human perspective, not a supernatural one.

no, we are talking about measuring the supernatural perspective against the human rules and laws. Just as I tried to get people to do about Love in this issue. Scripture says that God is Love. I Cor. 13 gives us the characteristics of that Love. We can then measure God's actions according to those characteristics and there decide if in fact, God demonstrated Love or not. But you refuse to test in favor or asserting yourself to be right and everyone else to be insane. You are so biased you refuse to even answer a simple question like, is it wrong/unloving/immoral to put rapist/kidnappers/murderers in jail and if not, is it wrong/unloving/immoral to take their children and put them in good loving homes? See, your posts make you look so afraid of God that you won't even answer these simple questions.

The God of the Bible orders the slaughter of children. That is not justice.

according to His perspective, He didn't slaughter anyone...but then again, your posts suggest your delusional enough to think that everyone has to think like you or they are not just wrong, but insane and out of touch with reality....an idea I assure you is not accurate, people think differently from one another all the time. In fact, different perspectives can help us better understand all kinds of issues in our world today. I just listened to a homosexuals perspective of transgender people and it was very educational...still don't agree with either of the two talking, but it was interesting none the less.

Ordering the slaughter of children is not just.

no one did that, at least in perspective, that is just you making things up...so moving on.

 

[Loudmouth]

and yet repeatedly I tell you that I do not believe we have enough evidence to make a judgement call as to what God did or didn't do...so how do you go from, "we don't have enough information to judge the actions of God" to "No matter what God does you will claim that it is just because you start with the assumption that God is just."? SEriously, how do you not see that those two things are contrary to one another....I say, I will not judge, all I can do is measure (which is what justice is, a measure) and you say, no, that isn't what you are saying you are saying the opposite...I am pretty sure I would be the authority on what I believe and am saying not you. But then again, maybe that is why you are here, you want to inflame others into emotions like your posts suggest you have as pointed out with specific responses you did not offer correction of. Hum.... what children did He kill...oh that's right, your talking about your made up god again. Please find a way to make sure we know which god/God you are talking about. Your entering a different god into the discussion is confusing.

What more do you need to know? Maybe Hitler had a perspective where the Holocaust was just? We don't know everything about Hitler, so maybe he did the right thing?

Does that argument make any sense?

It really isn't that hard. If God's perspective is that killing children is just, then his perspective is wrong. That's what you are unwilling to consider.

 

[razzelflabben]

What more do you need to know? Maybe Hitler had a perspective where the Holocaust was just? We don't know everything about Hitler, so maybe he did the right thing?

we can gather all the evidence and then measure, which is all I'm asking us to do with God, but you are somehow fearful to do so all the while allowing your posts to boast of some secret knowledge. Why are you so afraid to measure God's actions against what is just and Love? If you are right, why the fear?

Does that argument make any sense?

It really isn't that hard. If God's perspective is that killing children is just, then his perspective is wrong. That's what you are unwilling to consider.

but God's perspective as you have repeatedly been told is that He did not kill children, He put them in a Loving home rather than leave them in their abusive ones...how is that evil? When you tell us how removing children from an abusive home is evil, then we can talk about whether or not God's perspective is truth and/or accurate, but your posts show so much fear of God's perspective that you refuse to even answer the question even though our government takes kids out of their abusive homes everyday and I haven't heard anyone claiming that is immoral and evil....so which is it, is taking children from an abusive home and putting them in a loving home evil and immoral or not? It's really quite a simple question.

 

[mindlight]

Even the 1 year olds?

No as. I mentioned it is likely that young children would be among the only ones saved out of such a culture.

So much for free will.

Fore knowledge and free will are not in conflict. That God knows how we will use our freewill does not contradict the fact of our freedom.

Why is God incapable of judging unfairly?

Generally mercy triumphs over judgment in the Christian view. Genocide is rarely sanctioned. Why would you trust an unjust judge. God in his love is slow to anger and quick to forgive - in the case of the Canaanites he waited 400 years before declaring the line had been crossed.

So you think it would be moral to kill the children of a death row inmate? Really?

No but these kids start with a disadvantage. There are many rags to riches. Sinners to saints testimonies in practice. The soul that sins is the one that will die.

Then why do we put people in jail for killing children if there is nothing wrong with it?

If you kill a child outside of an accident in war you are a murderer.

If a child of Satanists dies young. They may be saved.

This does not condone the murder of Satanist children

 

[mindlight]

Interesting article from the Guardian. Atheists today have bought into the dominant ideology of our times - liberalism. Hence their horror of genocide and "what about the babies" arguments against God. Of course the same liberalism condones the mass murder of the innocent with abortion. But the link between science and liberalism the 2 pillars of modern atheism is missing. Indeed the brutality of evolution sits more readily with genocide, racism and the destruction of the weak. Atheism stresses a version of love that revolves around secularly motivated choices and biology however it is clear that globally this understanding is a minority view and is increasingly questioned. The rise of Russian Orthodoxy, African Christianity and the church in China being one set of examples and 911, al quaeda and IsIL being another. History is not the side of the atheists and as the West declines will be increasingly less and less so.

 

[mindlight]

Interesting article from the Guardian. Atheists today have bought into the dominant ideology of our times - liberalism. Hence their horror of genocide and "what about the babies" arguments against God. Of course the same liberalism condones the mass murder of the innocent with abortion. But the link between science and liberalism the 2 pillars of modern atheism is missing. Indeed the brutality of evolution sits more readily with genocide, racism and the destruction of the weak. Atheism stresses a version of love that revolves around secularly motivated choices and biology however it is clear that globally this understanding is a minority view and is increasingly questioned. The rise of Russian Orthodoxy, African Christianity and the church in China being one set of examples and 911, al quaeda and IsIL being another. History is not the side of the atheists and as the West declines will be increasingly less and less so.

And the link for the article is here

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/03/what-scares-the-new-atheists

 

[mindlight]

One doesn't challenge the delusions of schizophrenics and endure their rants because one hates the insane. And insanity isn't "nothing".

So how are we to interpret your presence among mad Christians whose worldview you have spent so much time and mental energy squeezing into your own interpretative matrices ?
1) curiosity
2) a missionary instinct to rescue Christians from their delusions
3) a suspicion that you yourself are missing a crucial truth