Well, as jesus was god in human form and god is apparently omniscient he would have had it all planned from the word go, so that would make it a bit of a pantomime. A rather unpleasant one, but there we are.
yes and no...basically, the need for blood sacrifice was the very nature of the thing. You see, God is said to be so holy that He cannot be around sin, so the consequence of sin is death (death meaning separation from God, we can talk about physical death but as I said, that really is kind of off topic, thus violation of forum rules) Many people are taught that death is the punishment for sin, yet Gen. tells us that pain in childbirth and weeds were man's punishment for sin, death is the consequence of sin.
So, let's put some of this together, (man I wish I have more time to show you some of the things you are missing) Since death is the consequence of sin and God knew that from the get go, and since He knew that man would fail, He is responsible for that sin and death, which is exactly why He sent His Son as an atonement. It would be like me knowing that my kids would get hurt if they ran out into the street, so I put up a fence to stop them. They can still climb the fence and run out into the street, but I have taken precautions to prevent that from happening. Likewise, God knew that sin would make things bad for man, so He put up a protective barrier against our running out into the street. We can still refuse Christ (climb the fence) but He took measures to prevent it from happening.
You keep limiting your god's actions to those of a human being who is neither omniscient nor omnipotent. You have to keep in mind that a super being like your god knows all before he even started on the project. The night before day 1 he'd know the whole thing inside out. But this is how he decided things were going to be done. Think about that.
I'm not limiting Him in that way at all, you may try to make it sound like I am, but look at the above, I readily and eagerly testified to His knowing what would happen, thus your trying to claim otherwise is just more misrepresentations.
Then of course, after taking that into account, we have the small question of: How exactly does god in human form going through a fake suicide allow him to forgive sins? How does that work exactly?
First let's address your claim of "fake suicide" there was nothing fake about His death, nor was there anything suicidal about it. He was killed, He willingly allowed it to happen, but He didn't kill Himself, nor was His death a fake death.
How does it work...well, as we see in Gen. the consequence of sin is death, that means that blood has to be shed for life to happen. In the OT, God allowed that blood to be that of an animal, but the problem with animal sacrifices was that they were incomplete, not lasting, it required a perfect (without sin) human sacrifice to be complete and lasting. Someone to take our place. IOW's let's say that I committed a crime and would be executed for that crime. My dog steps in and tries to take my place, but everyone knows that the dog does not have the authority to pardon my sentence, that requires a person of authority. Jesus is that person of authority, an authority that an animal could not have.
Is this some sort of weird default reaction you've all been told to respond with when people tell you that your god isn't much cop? I'm not annoyed at the actions of the fictional character in your favourite book, I'm just appalled at what you think is justifiable from a supposedly loving god.
like I said, perspective and reason are important to understanding. As is revelation...but that is as I said before a different topic, a different discussion.
Right. So you're not looking for justifications of love for the killings carried out and ordered by your god in the old testament. Got it.
Not at all...why would I? Why would I seek to justify anything when I want to know pure and simple truth? Why do people who voice the same attitude as you do, assume that everyone who found a different answer than you did must be trying to justify things so that they can convince themselves to believe? A quest to know and understand, cannot by the very nature of the thing, justify or make excuses. that is why I told you that just because we understand God's perspective and reason, doesn't mean we have to accept it as good or just. Those things are NOT the same thing at all. I am currently writing a murder mystery. I am going into a great lot of detail talking about the murderers mental state, her reason for killing, what is driving her. The purpose of this is NOT to convince the reader that she was justified, but rather to allow the reader to identify with a part of her that is part of our own beings. IOW's, we begin to understand what drives her is the same things that are within us. Likewise, when we understand God's perspective and reason, we begin to see that we have those same reasons within us. Whether or not we think it is justified is a very different matter. You would be wise to not confuse the two.
Wrong. Basic human morality comes from us being a social animal that lives in extended co-operative groups.
so you say, the bottom line is that there is no evidence to tell us where it comes from. But the origin was not the point of my comment. The point of the comment was to show that even scripture talks about man having an understanding of right and wrong...but then again, your posts suggest you are on an agenda that will cloud your understanding of anything being said, so I'll just clarify and move on.
Yes, that's the story that is supposed to set up god's big show in the new testament. There are so many problems with it one hardly knows where to begin. How about with your god being omniscient and knowing the whole script before he even started?
well, like I said, this is off topic but I would be more than happy to talk with you in PM or on an appropriate thread. Secondly, I already said that God knew what was going to happen from the start and took responsibility for it.
One of the things you don't seem to understand from the posts you are making here, is that much of how we process things is our perspective of the thing. For example, your posts seem to suggest two options, 1. enlightenment in which one would have to agree with you, or 2. brainwashing in which one has been taught to believe God thus blindly goes along with everything they are told to believe. The truth is that there are many more options available. For example, my husband and I believe and follow because we have seen the power of the living God revealed in our lives. Our pastor believes because he saw that same power revealed in others lives. Our daughter believes because she needed some clarity and found it in Christ. A young friend I was talking to yesterday believes because he was at a crossroads and needed some answers and found them in Christ. I know of people who were seeking for truth, nothing more or less, just truth and found it in Christ. Etc. etc. etc. There are tons of reasons and evidences people have for believing, it isn't just a matter of enlightenment and brainwashing. People with critical thinking and skepticism also believe. I personally came to Christ because I needed a greater power than the ones I was able to find on this earth, when I began to study, I needed to know who that power was from and how good or evil that being was. It's kind of like an expanded version of the glass half full or half empty thing. Depending on how we view the evidence (in this case biblical) depends on what the conclusion will be. One of the few wise things my mother said was that in a family of 6 people, all viewing the same even, you will have 6 different stories as to what happened. Likewise, you view God as evil, therefore everything that you hear, read, etc. about God will be through evil colored glasses. Today I will view God through Love colored glasses (that was not always so). The key to knowing truth, is to do what I did many many years ago, take off all the glasses, every color which man could see through and there, just look and see what you discover. IOW's stop trying to make God good or bad or whatever we want to make Him to be and instead, discover who He is. Repeatedly, I tell even those in the church, stop believing in the God to want Him to be, the God you have been taught He is and start discovering the God that He really is. That same truth applies here, stop trying to see Him through the glasses you have chosen and start looking for who He really is. Oh well, I'm guessing from your posts, this will fall on deaf ears and you will just make more accusations against me and what I have said, non sense like 'I think you have to believe like I do or you aren't seeing the real God' or 'of course you are the one who is seeing the real God' or some other non sense, but is it said anyway and there is more truth to this paragraph than most will ever grasp.
Jesus was god in human form. Correct?
that is what scripture tells us.
Yep, got it. As I said, I thought you were trying to find evidence of love in the killings that god was responsibly for in the old testament. How wrong I was.
interesting enough, my current study on Love is how suffering can be a demonstration of Love. It's actually quite fascinating. The most obvious is that of a parent correcting a child, but there is so so much more to it from a biblical perspective. In fact, if I had to summarize everything I have found so far, (which is very difficult cause there is so much) it would be to say that God brings good out of suffering. The unfortunate reality for people like you who's posts show that you don't buy this, is that I have seen it happen time and time and time and time again. Whether it was God or some other force (something for us to talk about and test) good comes from all kinds of ashes so to speak.
But back to the OT killings...like I repeatedly have told you, God's perspective and reason are important to an understanding of the events. Without that knowledge all you can say is you would have done it differently and that doesn't mean anything because you weren't there. Understanding God's perspective and reason does not mean you have to agree or acknowledge wisdom in it, all it means is that you are beginning to see things through the eyes of the one who was there and did the things you don't like.
Er....so I wasn't wrong after all. You said it yourself. "..the killing of the OT are understandably love if we look at the perspective..." So you are in fact justifying millions of killings as "understandably love". You know, I don't think it's really necessary for me to do anything more than sit back and let you say it.
wow...how many times can I correct you before you allow your posts to reflect what I am saying? From God's perspective, His actions were not only justifiable but loving. We don't have to agree in order to fathom that, in fact a simple everyday analogy testifies that this can and is true. Take the example previously given of the father who kills the child molester. His perspective is one of Love and justice. The mother of the molester might not see the love in her son being killed. Different perspectives. You will probably side with which ever one you most closely identify with. Understanding a perspective is not permitting, agreeing, or otherwise affirming anything, all it does is show the perspective of the one who is being judged. You really need to get past this misrepresentation of everything I say if you want to have any kind of meaningful dialog here with me. Otherwise it's just flamming and that won't get us anywhere except hurt and anger.
This isn't a human father defending his daughter, this is an omniscient, omnipotent super being who can do anything he likes and knows the whole story before he even started on the project. Sorry, but if murder and genocide are the only solutions this omnipotent, omniscient super being can come up with what does that say about him to you? Have a think about that.
I've thought about it a lot, how about you? How much thought have you put into His perspective? Remember, this omniscient, omnipotent God is also eternal and knows that man's spirit (His perspective remember, doesn't matter if you believe that the spirit of man is eternal or not) is also eternal. This understanding puts a whole new spin on the question of could God have done something different. This perspective brings into the question a whole new dimension. Add to this, that the children of Israel were viewed by God as His children. Thus, what you have is an all knowing Father who knows that His children will be lost to Him forever if He doesn't step in and stop the abductor from molesting and killing His children. But, you think this makes Him wrong somehow, which is one of many reasons you and I are not going to agree. I happen to think that a father is justified to prevent his children from being molested and killed, you do not think God is justified to do so. Does that make God right, no, what makes Him right in my eyes is that He has never failed to demonstrate His Love and wisdom to me and so I chose (notice the word chose) to accept that He was justified to be the protective Father He tells us He was being. If God had failed to demonstrate His Love and wisdom to me, I might very well chose to think as you do, that it was an unjustified act, but either choice does not change His perspective. Either choice allows us to understand how an all knowing, all powerful, eternal God might do what He did, given what He knew would come if He didn't.
Let's get this straight shall we. God sends himself to earth in human form in order to quite deliberately get himself tortured to death in order to allow him to do some forgiving for a lot of sins that were the result of a scene he set up himself in the first place and knew the outcome of, being omniscient, and which apparently he couldn't forgive any other way because his omnipotence has some major flaw somewhere, although he is actually supposed to be omnipotent. Oh, and he doesn't actually die either, because he's up and about and displaying himself hither and thither in no time at all before zooming up to heaven for the big party where all the forgiving then take place.
do you have any idea how much this paragraph sounds angry, hostile, and venomous? If you talked this way about anyone else on this board, you would be violating so many forum rules it isn't funny and yet, you feel justified to say these things about God and get upset if someone calls you on it. As I said, you are only telling the part of the story that you want to be angry about, you leave out all the rest of the story, the parts that you have a much harder time twisting into something evil. Kind of like how you continue to reinvent what I say and twist it until it is barely recognizable and then try to call it truth.
But what I am going to focus on here is 1. why you keep insisting on trying to take this off topic? I have offered to talk to you in depth in another format, one that would be on topic. instead of taking me up on it, you keep trying to take us off topic. I already gave you a few of the things you were missing and you don't even acknowledge them in yet another of your rants. and 2. How Christ's suffering and death is an act of Love. Here are a few of the ways we know it is Love. 1. humility...not only did Christ come and suffer and die, not only did He do so willingly, not only was it a demonstration of responsibility, but He left His authority, His home, His throne, His Father, His beauty, His comforts, His position, His acceptance, etc. to come to show man that where they violated the law, grace still abounds. 2. In giving up all of that to show man the right way, think here about a child who disobeys but the parent lovingly trys to guide them back to the right answer....He endured all kinds of abuses. 3. He showed us the patience and kindness (these are specified as such in scripture even though the whole of I Cor. 13 can be seen in scripture) of Love in His life, so not only did He give the greatest sacrifice, He also demonstrated the characteristics of I Cor. 13 Love. and 4. let's talk about His death. His death was as real as our son who died 5 years ago, or my father who is in the process of dieing even today. His death was as real as mine will be someday, as my grandparents who have already died, as Paul who died long ago. The difference is that His resurrection was public and bold, so that we would have hope in the life we can't see. Same death, and eventually the same resurrection every true believer will have and a form of the resurrection every non believer will experience. To show the way, that is be a guide, is very much an act of Love.
We could go on, in fact, we can take I Cor. 13 and show throughout the life of Christ where each of these characteristics existed...shall we make a post long enough to do such?
Question:
Why can't this omnipotent god - omnipotent means he can do everything and anything remember - just do the forgiving without the pretending to have himself killed bit? Remember - crucial this - you are not talking about a human being defending his daughter, you are talking about an omnipotent, omniscient super being. Hang onto that thought while you think about it.
I have already told you this, why ask again? There are two huge things you are missing in your question, it is obvious you are missing them if you keep asking the same question over and over, because the answer whether you accept it or not has been given and is logical 1. death is the consequence of sin, iow's it is God's nature, not His decision that brings death as the result of sin. Your question only holds water if death is the punishment not the consequence of sin. and 2. You fail to understand what omnipotent really means in light of scripture. IOW's you are calling God omnipotent, I am calling God the omnipotent of scripture. The difference being that God in His wisdom, gave some of His authority to man. He gave man the right to chose for himself. As such, His omnipotence does not include demanding anything from man. He can, but He choses not to, He choses to allow man to make his own choice and in that discover what real Love is. You see, Love that is Biblical Love is a choice. If God forced man to choose Him, then there could be no Love and that would leave man empty and unfulfilled. The only way for Love to exist at all, is if God gives man choice.
When you apply these two truths to your question, the question vanishes into disrepair unless of course you reinvent God into the god you want Him to be.
