What is "lawlessness"...? Or who are the "people of lawlessness"...?

[bèlla]

So all sin and sinners are lawless ones...?

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. —1 John 3:4

The key in that statement is habitual rebellion. That is in contradiction to God. It reflects someone who has knowingly rejected Him and have chosen to do right in their own sight. Much like you saw in Judges.

Believers who’ve accepted God and wrestle against sin are another matter. But if they’ve willingly succumbed with no attempt to cease and continue in that vain in spite of the Holy Spirit’s promptings (and counsel from others) that is rebellion too.

There are those who are ignorant of the truth and may be deceived or subject to spiritual blindness. He knows their hearts and which will heed Him.

Lawlessness is not a permanent state. Repentance is possible.

Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. —Romans 4:7-8

 

[CharismaticLady]

What is "lawlessness"...? Or who are the "people of lawlessness"...?

It cannot be people who do not keep all of the OT Law perfectly, cause none of us do perfectly...?

And it cannot be the people that think they do, because they are wrong and are deceiving themselves and their own minds...?

So what is it...? And who are they...?

Discuss...?

Comments...?

Scripture refers to the "mystery of lawlessness" and the lawless one or ones being revealed, so, what is it and who are they...?

God Bless!

1 John 3:4 "sin is lawlessness."

I see this as breaking the royal law. James 2:
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

At the end of 1 John 3 is verse 23 giving us the New Covenant commandments of Jesus. To believe on Him, and love your neighbor.

 

[Neogaia777]

I described it once like this, having a bow and arrow and aiming for and shooting at a target, and one person maybe saying, "well, if I can't hit the bullseye perfectly every single time I try, then I'm not even going to try or practice at it (righteousness) at all then..."

And how foolish is that...?

Now I understand people getting down or depressed or discouraged, but you can still at least practice right, and get back up, and get to where you can hit the target at least right, and with practice and with time and with trying to hit the bullseye, you will get better at it, and improve, right? But and/or also, even the very best of archers don't hit the bullseye all the time and every single time, or split their own arrows in the middle of the bullseye every single time...

No reason to just quit and not even try, and the "instructor" is not even basing your performance rating on how well, or not well you do or don't do, but just you willingness to not give up and just try, and get up and keep trying, aiming, practicing, etc... Not grading you on your performance, or comparing your performace to others performances, but just your willingness to not give up and not be a quitter, and your willingness to still keep trying, practicing, etc... Not about how good you do or don't do, or get to be, or don't get to be, etc... He knows how good you can or cannot be already anyway...

Not a perfect analogy i know, but it's pretty good...

God Bless!

The analogy is not perfect because it alludes to our own doing in our own strength, and that's where it kind of falls short, is what I meant about it not being perfect...

 

[fwGod]

What is "lawlessness"...? Or who are the "people of lawlessness"...?

The lawless are those who do not follow the laws of God. Those who do not "love the law of the Lord" and therefore they have no peace. They have no peace with God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Neogaia777]

1 John 3:4 "sin is lawlessness."

I see this as breaking the royal law. James 2:
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

At the end of 1 John 3 is verse 23 giving us the New Covenant commandments of Jesus. To believe on Him, and love your neighbor.

Must we Love perfectly, or always be always perfect in Love...?

What if we fail or fall short of perfect Love even one time...?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Must we Love perfectly, or always be always perfect in Love...?

What if we fail or fall short of perfect Love even one time...?

Are you looking for a way of escape, or the meaning of lawlessness.

 

[Neogaia777]

The lawless are those who do not follow the laws of God. Those who do not "love the law of the Lord" and therefore they have no peace. They have no peace with God through Jesus Christ.

Again, must we do this perfectly...? And always continually perfectly...?

What if we stumble even once...?

I Love the Law of God, "all" of His Laws, but must admit, don't live up to them perfectly and probably never will... and I have some serious doubts that the rest of you do either?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Are you looking for a way of escape, or the meaning of lawlessness.

I believe the/a way of escape, for us all, lies in knowing the true meaning of lawlessness, or knowing what a true lawless one is, from a not lawless one, for sure, etc...?

So, both.

But not so much in a way of escape for myself, but more so for those that I love and care about the most...?

God Bless!

 

[bèlla]

Here’s an example...

A person may struggle with inappropriate contentography and someone may be addicted too.

But that profoundly differs from the person who creates an adult website and earns a living promoting inappropriate contentography. This is lawlessness. Its cancerous and destructive.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I believe the/a way of escape, for us all, lies in knowing the true meaning of lawlessness, or knowing what a true lawless one is, from a not lawless one, for sure, etc...?

So, both.

But not so much in a way of escape for myself, but more so for those that I love and care about the most...?

God Bless!

1 John 1:7

Walk in the Spirit and trespasses will be cleansed. Trespasses are unwittingly committed; in other words, not on purpose.

 

[bèlla]

Lawlessness knows no bounds. It is the absence of order and restraint. Boundaries do not exist and anything goes.

It always leads to extremes in sinful behavior. Because the conscience has been compromised and wholly profaned.

 

[Ken Rank]

We call the first 5 "Torah." period.

Period, Dave? Why be like that?

Which is why "Torah" meaning teaching and instruction is a much better way of looking at those books.

Again... it is a Jewish cultural thing to call the first 5 books Torah, a cultural thing I don't have an issue with. BUT... there is a LOT in those 5 books that "ARE NOT INSTRUCTIONS," there is a LOT of history there. Call it Torah if you want, I don't care... but the HISTORY isn't instruction or direction... which is what Torah means.

 

[Neogaia777]

Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. —1 John 3:4

The key in that statement is habitual rebellion. That is in contradiction to God. It reflects someone who has knowingly rejected Him and have chosen to do right in their own sight. Much like you saw in Judges.

Believers who’ve accepted God and wrestle against sin are another matter. But if they’ve willingly succumbed with no attempt to cease and continue in that vain in spite of the Holy Spirit’s promptings (and counsel from others) that is rebellion too.

There are those who are ignorant of the truth and may be deceived or subject to spiritual blindness. He knows their hearts and which will heed Him.

Lawlessness is not a permanent state. Repentance is possible.

Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. —Romans 4:7-8

1 John 3:4 "sin is lawlessness."

I see this as breaking the royal law. James 2:
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

At the end of 1 John 3 is verse 23 giving us the New Covenant commandments of Jesus. To believe on Him, and love your neighbor.

Here’s an example...

A person may struggle with inappropriate contentography and someone may be addicted too.

But that profoundly differs from the person who creates an adult website and earns a living promoting inappropriate contentography. This is lawlessness. Its cancerous and destructive.

I would like to know, so as to be able to identify, the "man of lawlessness" who is leading the "people of lawlessness" and what by how what, he would or will be leading them by his own lawlessness or lawless course/deeds, etc, and how it will be so slick and deceptive that many get caught up in it/him, so as not be following it myself, or others follow him or them either, ones I love, etc...?

Care to help?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Lawlessness knows no bounds. It is the absence of order and restraint. Boundaries do not exist and anything goes.

It always leads to extremes in sinful behavior. Because the conscience has been compromised and wholly profaned.

This is the best I've heard thus far, thanks, world does seem to be going that way, doesn't it?

And a man of lawlessness would be promoting it and probably gaining a lot of popularity wouldn't he?

God Bless!

 

[Ken Rank]

Bit of history:

The use (or misuse) of nomos (law) to translate "Torah" (instruction) was the choice of the translators of the Septuagint. IMO it was a poor choice.

The Torah (all the do's and don'ts) were well known BEFORE Sinai. Genesis 26:5 for one example... shows us that Torah existed before Sinai. I can give you 15-20 other examples if you need them. At Sinai, Dave.... the Torah was placed in writing for the first time. In addition to the instructions/directions/commandments there were two things ADDED at that time. Do you know what they are, Dave? The penalties (judgments), AND the ability to prosecute. In essence... the Torah became Israel's "NATIONAL RULE OF LAW." It would be used to govern that nation... to the point that any king would pen for himself a copy and read from it daily. Thus, the TORAH became the LAW of Israel.

So, we call it Law... in Greek, nomos.

So, thanks for the lesson old friend.

 

[PJ76]

Lawlessness in Greek literally means against the law. But against what law? Nobody knows since Jesus did not specify which law.

 

[Ken Rank]

Any writing like that would have been stripped away during the 400 years of enslavement in Egypt.

Moses wrote it from divine revelation.

When Judah came out of Babylon, what did Ezra and Nehemiah find in the desecrated Temple? Since I know you know the answer.... why would it be so hard to conceive that anything Shem (or somebody else) might have written, could have been preserved? We have 2000-2500 year old preserved manuscripts, hundreds of them... found in the caves of the Dead Sea. But something Shem or another might have written just can't have made it?

Instead, we have Scripture saying Moses wrote the law (the 613 COMMANDMENTS and judgments) and NOTHING that even hints at Moses having written the history. You're welcome to believe whatever you want... but respect the right of others to believe something you don't. PERIOD? Come on Dave, you really are better than that.

Shalom.
Ken

PS... do remember, @Dave-W that your own tradition says that Shem had the first school!

 

[PJ76]

Sin is a form of lawlessness, but sin itself is not lawlessness. Sin in Greek means to fall short. Sin and lawlessness in Greek have two different meanings.

 

[Ken Rank]

Lawlessness in Greek literally means against the law. But against what law? Nobody knows since Jesus did not specify which law.

Was he worried about secular law... or people walking outside of God's will? Answer that and you have your answer.

 

[fwGod]

Again, must we do this perfectly...? And always continually perfectly...?

What if we stumble even once...?

I Love the Law of God, "all" of His Laws, but must admit, don't live up to them perfectly and probably never will... and I have some serious doubts that the rest of you do either?

God Bless!

The topic is lawlessness. I don't see what that has to do with Christians not being perfect.

Biblically lawless people are sinners, children of disobedience. Those who have become new creatures in Christ Jesus are the children of God.