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What is Jesus saying here?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by tigersnare, Feb 14, 2004.

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  1. tigersnare

    tigersnare Angry Young Calvinist

    +23
    Calvinist
    Ok so John's disciples have just left Jesus, after John's doubts, Jesus then addresses the crowds and testifies about John, and says this....


    "From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force"...(ESV, my new favorite translation)


    Ok I could think of a couple different things, but none of which would be in the context of the previous and following verses....

    :help:
     
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  2. II Paradox II

    II Paradox II Oracle of the Obvious

    527
    +32
    Calvinist
    I don't have the book here with me, but you may want to order this book

    It contains an interesting explanation of this passage from a jewish perspective that you may like. It covers quite a number of other difficult pasages as well...

    ken
     
  3. tigersnare

    tigersnare Angry Young Calvinist

    +23
    Calvinist
    Whoa, thanks for the link....


    They kinda stir the pot, don't they?....Jesus spoke in Hebrew!?!?

    That would change quite a few things up I would think.
     
  4. Cathologetics

    Cathologetics Peacemaker

    310
    +16
    Catholic
    You have the cite on that? It's real familiar. Is it when John the Baptist sent his disciples to question Jesus? As for meaning, I am hoping some of you smart people explain it before I scratch through my skull and hit my tiny little brain, cause I don't have a clue.
     
  5. good4u

    good4u <font color="darkblue"><font size="3"><b><i><font

    +45
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Republican
    Actually, tigersnare, Jesus spoke in Aramaic, the common language of the people of Israel of that day. Tho' I believe he read Hebrew as he was asked to speak in the synagogue as he read from Scripture. But that is JMO. :)
     
  6. good4u

    good4u <font color="darkblue"><font size="3"><b><i><font

    +45
    Protestant
    Single
    US-Republican
    I hope this is not too terribly off topic, but....

    The film, "The Passion" is spoken in Aramaic (but subtitled in English, of course!) as well as Greek (or Latin?), the common langauge of the Romans.

    Back to the topic at hand...
     
  7. tigersnare

    tigersnare Angry Young Calvinist

    +23
    Calvinist
    Ummmm yeah, I believe he spoke in Aramaic as well......you would have to follow that link, read the reviews, and then read my post......


    Basically the book tries to prove he spoke in hebrew.....
     
  8. tigersnare

    tigersnare Angry Young Calvinist

    +23
    Calvinist
    Matthew 11:12 I believe.
     
  9. sola fide

    sola fide neo-Puritan

    323
    +6
    Calvinist
    Here's a sermon by Spurgeon on that text.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1076809144-188.html


    " John was the Elijah sent by God to call men and women into the kingdom of the Messiah by repentance and faith, but he never saw the glorious deed of Christ on the cross nor did he see the glorious pouring out of the Spirit. To all of which, we are the beneficiaries.
    And so, the Lord Jesus says this in verse 12: “And from the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence and violent men take it by force.” That is a very difficult passage to translate. Many good translators wrestle over just what it means. Many of you heard the great sermon that John Reed Miller preached on that text from this pulpit many years ago. It was called “Taking Heaven by Storm.” I think that Dr. Miller correctly translated that passage. When we read it as it reads now in The New American Standard, it seems as if the kingdom is being assaulted by violent men. Dr. Miller pointed out that the thrust of the passage is that men of courage and of vigor are embracing the truth of the kingdom.

    Jesus' point is that the kingdom - we cannot take the kingdom and sleep. We cannot be indifferent about the kingdom. We must embrace the kingdom like John, a man of vigor. We must embrace the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is not something that we can be blasé about, or apathetic about. The kingdom must be embraced. And, the Lord Jesus is saying in this generation there are people who are embracing the kingdom even while others are standing by and criticizing faithful men like John the Baptist. Their spirituality consists of complaining about what they don't like in the messenger and they're not exulting in the message of the kingdom of heaven. And, so, He's exhorting us to take heaven by storm - not that we can earn our salvation by works. Oh, no; it is by grace through faith alone. But, we must respond to the gospel and so enter into the kingdom. We cannot sleep our way into the kingdom. It demands action and commitment - response to the message of the gospel."

    -Ligon Duncan
    www.fpcjackson.org
    Grace.
     
  10. Henhouse

    Henhouse Member

    147
    +5
    Pentecostal
    Maybe? because the Bible is sufficient for us today we can read this to mean that we should pray with fervency and power. Eph:6:12: For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
     
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