What is Jesus doing in John 14:10-11 and 10:37-38?

janxharris

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John 14:10-11
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

John 10:37-38
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
 

sdowney717

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Jesus is testifying to the truth.
This has nothing to do with their ability to believe.

The apostles in Acts say similar things to all people they come across.

And it gives the Jews no excuse since they then rejected Christ.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

They hear but dont hear, see but dont see, say they understand but do not understand..
 
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Conchobar

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We are called to abide in Christ (John 15).
When we abide in Christ, Christ is in us. We can fathom this because of our Christian culture and all the talk of the Holy Spirit (yes indeed the Spirit of God certainly does dwell in those who believe!). However, in Jesus' time such a saying was revolutionary. Testifying to God's presence within Him, He dwells in the Father as the Father dwells in Him.

When we are obedient to the promptings of the Holy Spirit (that sensational urge to take heart in thought, speech or action) we can feel Christ at work in us - I am not God nor an angel but I believe that we are given the authority to do this as Christ did this; being in His Father as His Father was in Him - authority was His, as well as justification.

God was IN Jesus just as today, by the power of The Holy Spirit;
Jesus is IN us.
 
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janxharris

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Jesus is testifying to the truth.
This has nothing to do with their ability to believe.

Sorry, but Jesus unquestionably enjoins them to believe. Why present evidence if they cannot? If they can't believe because they are not sheep, then what should we say of Jesus' integrity? You are forced to deny that Jesus is preaching and offering the Gospel - the very thing He is doing. He uses the same words as when He speaks to Philip who is struggling to believe too.

QUESTION:
Please tell me why Jesus presents evidence to those He describes as not His sheep?


The apostles in Acts say similar things to all people they come across.

And it gives the Jews no excuse since they then rejected Christ.

They hear but dont hear, see but dont see, say they understand but do not understand..

You are presenting further proof that though all men have the wherewithal to believe, many will choose not to do so.
 
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janxharris

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We are called to abide in Christ (John 15).
When we abide in Christ, Christ is in us. We can fathom this because of our Christian culture and all the talk of the Holy Spirit (yes indeed the Spirit of God certainly does dwell in those who believe!). However, in Jesus' time such a saying was revolutionary. Testifying to God's presence within Him, He dwells in the Father as the Father dwells in Him.

When we are obedient to the promptings of the Holy Spirit (that sensational urge to take heart in thought, speech or action) we can feel Christ at work in us - I am not God nor an angel but I believe that we are given the authority to do this as Christ did this; being in His Father as His Father was in Him - authority was His, as well as justification.

God was IN Jesus just as today, by the power of The Holy Spirit;
Jesus is IN us.

Okay, thanks. Do you believe that Christ offered such to those of John 10:37-38? Since you draw no distinction, I assume you do.
 
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sdowney717

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Sorry, but Jesus unquestionably enjoins them to believe. Why present evidence if they cannot? If they can't believe because they are not sheep, then what should we say of Jesus' integrity? You are forced to deny that Jesus is preaching and offering the Gospel - the very thing He is doing. He uses the same words as when He speaks to Philip who is struggling to believe too.

QUESTION:
Please tell me why Jesus presents evidence to those He describes as not His sheep?




You are presenting further proof that though all men have the wherewithal to believe, many will choose not to do so.

No you just read that into what I said.
Scripture says they (many) could not believe in Him.
John 12

37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”[f]
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”[g]
41 These things Isaiah said when[h] he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

What do you think about what that says?


The depth of this is that it is not of him who WILLS, nor him who runs but God who calls.
Through Isaac you seed shall be called.
That means something deep that you dont want to acknowledge.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[b] 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Why do you have so much doubt about these things??

“In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

Called as in God who calls, according to God's choice not according to man who wills or runs the race.
I pray someday God will open your eyes to these things. Cause I have shown so many verses that show this, yet you dont listen to what I say at all.
 
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cygnusx1

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Btw, it is possible to say the exact same thing to two different groups of people for two entirely different reasons.

Absolutely bro !

Does that thought need emphasising and expanding upon ?

Certainly there is duality of purpose in the Gospel message as well as there being two distinct callings .

I am not in the slightest disagreeing with the truth God enjoins unbelievers to repent and believe , an invitation which by and large is slighted , and even upon those who "believe" few are saved thereby , the way is narrow and few there are that find it.
 
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Hammster

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Absolutely bro !

Does that thought need emphasising and expanding upon ?

Certainly there is duality of purpose in the Gospel message as well as there being two distinct callings .

I am not in the slightest disagreeing with the truth God enjoins unbelievers to repent and believe , an invitation which by and large is slighted , and even upon those who "believe" few are saved thereby , the way is narrow and few there are that find it.
I can give an illustration of what I mean.

Suppose I'm falsely accused of murder, but there's circumstantial evidence linking me to the crime. It looks bad. If I take the stand, I'd want to tell the jury, "I know what it looks like, but I didn't do it". Why would I say these words to them? One, I didn't do it. Two, I don't want to go to prison for a crime I didn't commit.

Now, when I talk to my wife and kids, I'd say "I know what it looks like, but I didn't do it." Why would I say these EXACT words? One, I didn't do it. Two, I want them to still trust me, even though I might go to prison.

Exact same words with the exact same meaning. But two different purposes.
 
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cygnusx1

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I can give an illustration of what I mean.

Suppose I'm falsely accused of murder, but there's circumstantial evidence linking me to the crime. It looks bad. If I take the stand, I'd want to tell the jury, "I know what it looks like, but I didn't do it". Why would I say these words to them? One, I didn't do it. Two, I don't want to go to prison for a crime I didn't commit.

Now, when I talk to my wife and kids, I'd say "I know what it looks like, but I didn't do it." Why would I say these EXACT words? One, I didn't do it. Two, I want them to still trust me, even though I might go to prison.

Exact same words with the exact same meaning. But two different purposes.

I'll take it :cool:

I know what's coming next , some false charge .......
 
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Hammster

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I'll take it :cool:

I know what's coming next , some false charge .......

You mean like "are you equating being falsely charged with murder to the gospel?" That kind of false charge?
 
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cygnusx1

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You mean like "are you equating being falsely charged with murder to the gospel?" That kind of false charge?

The kind where we are being falsely charged with saying God acts with duplicity .... Because He has several agendas with sinners , and saving some is strictly only one.
 
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Hammster

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The kind where we are being falsely charged with saying God acts with duplicity .... Because He has several agendas with sinners , and saving some is strictly only one.

There is that, too.
 
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janxharris

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No you just read that into what I said.

You didn't answer my question.

Scripture says they (many) could not believe in Him.
John 12

What do you think about what that says?

The case of Judas in Matthew 13 has been pointed out many times. It proves that Isaiah 6:9,10 is not absolute when it is described of someone.
The depth of this is that it is not of him who WILLS, nor him who runs but God who calls.
Through Isaac you seed shall be called.
That means something deep that you dont want to acknowledge.

It was God who decided the line through whom Christ would come. Christ is the elect of God and anyone who believes will be adopted as a son.

Why do you have so much doubt about these things??

“In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

Called as in God who calls, according to God's choice not according to man who wills or runs the race.
I pray someday God will open your eyes to these things. Cause I have shown so many verses that show this, yet you dont listen to what I say at all.

Why aren't you viewing v.16 through the lens of Paul's summation?

Verses 30-32
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel who pursued the law as the way of righteousness have not obtained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

v.16 So then, it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

The 'wills' and 'runs' of v.16 equates to those who pursue righteousness by works of the law (v.32).
 
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janxharris

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I can give an illustration of what I mean.

Suppose I'm falsely accused of murder, but there's circumstantial evidence linking me to the crime. It looks bad. If I take the stand, I'd want to tell the jury, "I know what it looks like, but I didn't do it". Why would I say these words to them? One, I didn't do it. Two, I don't want to go to prison for a crime I didn't commit.

Now, when I talk to my wife and kids, I'd say "I know what it looks like, but I didn't do it." Why would I say these EXACT words? One, I didn't do it. Two, I want them to still trust me, even though I might go to prison.

Exact same words with the exact same meaning. But two different purposes.

? Same purpose in both: Trust me, I didn't do it.

Jesus was asked to demonstrated His Messiahship (v.24), and that is exactly what He did. You have not shown that He diverted from this to then merely give them a reason to not kill Him. Jesus' intent is made clear in Matthew 9:35-38.
 
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janxharris

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The kind where we are being falsely charged with saying God acts with duplicity ....

Why does Jesus present the exact same evidence (to those that are not His sheep) that He provides Philip so that Philip will believe?

Why does He enjoin that they believe Him?

Because He has several agendas with sinners

John 4:34-35
“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Don’t you have a saying, ‘It’s still four months until harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest.

and saving some is strictly only one.

You won't find that in scripture.
 
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cygnusx1

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Why does Jesus present the exact same evidence (to those that are not His sheep) that He provides Philip so that Philip will believe?

Why does He enjoin that they believe Him?



John 4:34-35
“My food,” said Jesus, “is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. Don’t you have a saying, ‘It’s still four months until harvest’? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest.



You won't find that in scripture.

It is often argued on these forums that Christ came solely to save and to heal , that "God wants everyone saved" that "Jesus died for everyone" that "Grace is simply an opportunity for all to be saved" and that 'man is the final decider in salvation not God who merely wishes to save , everyone.'

But is that the truth ?

It matters not what you call yourself , this question needs scrutiny and honesty.

Do the scriptures portray God coming as Christ to us with the single goal of salvation in mind ?

Do the scriptures speak of a duality of purpose in The coming of Christ and His Gospel ?

Here is the testimony of SCRIPTURE ;

The Divine Duality of purpose clearly revealed ,

John 9:39-41
Jesus said,a “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.” Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

also

Romans 9


[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

also

2 Corinthians 2

[15] For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
[16] To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
[17] For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4

2Cor.4

[1] Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
[2] But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
[3] But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
 
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janxharris

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It is often argued on these forums that Christ came solely to save and to heal , that "God wants everyone saved" that "Jesus died for everyone" that "Grace is simply an opportunity for all to be saved" and that 'man is the final decider in salvation not God who merely wishes to save , everyone.'

But is that the truth ?

It matters not what you call yourself , this question needs scrutiny and honesty.

Do the scriptures portray God coming as Christ to us with the single goal of salvation in mind ?

Do the scriptures speak of a duality of purpose in The coming of Christ and His Gospel ?

Here is the testimony of SCRIPTURE ;

The Divine Duality of purpose clearly revealed ,

John 9:39-41
Jesus said,a “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.” Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?” Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

also

Romans 9


[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

also

2 Corinthians 2

[15] For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
[16] To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
[17] For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2 Corinthians 4

2Cor.4

[1] Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
[2] But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
[3] But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You have not shown a duality of purpose that equates to divine election/reprobation. Matthew 13:11 proves that there is nothing absolute about such a supposed decree, for Judas is in the wrong group.

Why does Jesus present the exact same evidence (to those that are not His sheep) that He provides Philip so that Philip will believe?
 
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cygnusx1

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You have not shown a duality of purpose that equates to divine election/reprobation. Matthew 13:11 proves that there is nothing absolute about such a supposed decree, for Judas is in the wrong group.

Why does Jesus present the exact same evidence (to those that are not His sheep) that He provides Philip so that Philip will believe?

Judas was numbered amongst the sheep , as Christ was numbered amongst the sinners . Neither literally fits your view.

Can you clarify what you are trying to say about Philip ? Break it down with the scripture you have in mind , thanks.
 
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janxharris

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Judas was numbered amongst the sheep , as Christ was numbered amongst the sinners . Neither literally fits your view.

I have no idea what you mean.

Can you clarify what you are trying to say about Philip ? Break it down with the scripture you have in mind , thanks.

Philip was lacking in faith and Jesus demonstrated His divinity by recalling the works He has done.

Not sure of your point.
 
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