What is Holiness?

dms1972

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I mean personal holiness, not the Holiness of God.

I listened to this talk by Dallas Willard


Please try and listen to it before responding

While I wonder about the title "postmodern holiness"? and if he is articulating a biblical understanding of holiness, I can't help but think there is something in what he says about "modern holiness" because how he describes it is very like my Christian upbringing. While it would have immediately been agreed with that "it is the heart that God looks upon." nevertheless in a large part of the Christian culture, there was this emphasis on what you wear, etc. Places like the cinema, dance halls, clubs were deemed off limits. I am sure some people know what I am talking about. Some Christian groups were more strict than others, I don't think the one I belonged to was that strict, nevertheless we wore certain clothes on sundays. And in all honesty I was one thing inside and another outside - I would wear my sunday clothes to church to please my parents, yet during the week at school I would listen to and tell rude jokes to my classmates. I was aware of it at times. But next sunday would come, and I'd put on my sunday clothes and go to church again. I was obviously being a hypocrite. Yet the Christian culture seemed to value the externals to some extent too.

In some protestant theologies salvation just results in a change in the books of heaven, when we believe Christ's righteous is credited to our account. When God looks at our account he no longer sees a list of all our sins, he sees Christ's perfect obedience.

So what does it mean to be holy then if its not wearing one's Sunday suit and tie? Is Willard really articulating the Biblical meaning of holiness or something else?
 

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I mean personal holiness, not the Holiness of God.

I listened to this talk by Dallas Willard


Please try and listen to it before responding

While I wonder about the title "postmodern holiness"? and if he is articulating a biblical understanding of holiness, I can't help but think there is something in what he says about "modern holiness" because how he describes it is very like my Christian upbringing. While it would have immediately been agreed with that "it is the heart that God looks upon." nevertheless in a large part of the Christian culture, there was this emphasis on what you wear, etc. Places like the cinema, dance halls, clubs were deemed off limits. I am sure some people know what I am talking about. Some Christian groups were more strict than others, I don't think the one I belonged to was that strict, nevertheless we wore certain clothes on sundays. And in all honesty I was one thing inside and another outside - I would wear my sunday clothes to church to please my parents, yet during the week at school I would listen to and tell rude jokes to my classmates. I was aware of it at times. But next sunday would come, and I'd put on my sunday clothes and go to church again. I was obviously being a hypocrite. Yet the Christian culture seemed to value the externals to some extent too.

In some protestant theologies salvation just results in a change in the books of heaven, when we believe Christ's righteous is credited to our account. When God looks at our account he no longer sees a list of all our sins, he sees Christ's perfect obedience.

So what does it mean to be holy then if its not wearing one's Sunday suit and tie? Is Willard really articulating the Biblical meaning of holiness or something else?

Update: Below in post #6, com7fy8 gives some really valuable connections relating to the video

**************

Forgive me, but I do not like this recent modern wording "When God looks at us He sees _______", even if it's meant to just be a way of saying we are covered by Christ's sacrifice. God doesn't fail to be able to see our real heart and actions after we've been redeemed. It's our past sins that will be forgotten, not new ones a person refuses to confess and repent of later. He knows when we sin. We when stumble in sin, we need to confess, and turn. Else Paul would not have written that for that time in Galatians chapter 2, Peter "stood condemned." Peter was in a serious place of wrongness and needed to repent and return to Christ's way, which we know he did, later, by reading in Acts.
It's also going to be helpful here to read 1 John fully through, and Romans chapter 8 again.
 
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com7fy8

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So what does it mean to be holy
The Bible says to be holy as God is holy. I think this means how God's love has us become in our character > 1 John 4:17. We trust our Heavenly Father to truly correct us > Hebrews 12:4-11 < and we discover this, so better than how we would try to change and control our own selves.

This includes becoming gentle and quiet > 1 Peter 3:4.
 
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com7fy8

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Hi, everyone :) I listened only to about 1-32 minutes on the video > I can't guarantee how correctly I understand things he has said; but here is what I got out of what I listened to >

He says that there has been religious holiness which has been imposed on people, dictating their outward behavior, but not having transformation of one's heart.

He asks,

Do we need to be holy in order to go to Heaven?

And,

Aren't we saved by grace through faith?

He points out that Hebrews 12:14 says we need to pursue "holiness, without which no one will see the Lord" (in Hebrews 12:14). Yes.

And to me it is clear how Hebrews 12:4-11 says God's correction changes us to "become partakers of His holiness." So, it is so important that we actively seek God for His real correction. And this is guaranteed to us because our Heavenly Father loves us. God is committed to succeeding in us to truly correct us . . . in our character. And there is only one way our character can become, in God's correction > "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)

So, this is basic Bible, I would encourage. God is the One who is spiritual enough to change us to be how He wants us to be holy.

Dallas Willard did say that holiness is not mainly about outward behavior. It is about how you are.

And he gave the scripture which says not to love the things of this world.

I find this interesting how he brought in what not to love, in his presentation about what holiness involves and if holiness is good for us.

Yes, I would say, holiness is about how we love, along with how we are. Do not love the world or the things in the world.

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world---the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life---is not of the Father but is of the world." (1 John 2:14-15)

He says people can use their abilities to get what they want; they can organize their lives around their desires. Instead, we need to walk according to the Holy Spirit, and not according to the lusts of the flesh.

So, yes, I would say holiness has to do with our hearts' desires. And these can be connected to our real character which can decide how we are and what we want and value and love the most.

So, by the way - - - if I guilt-trip myself about my wrong ways, this is not actively seeking God for real correction!! I might be trying to use my pain on my own self, in order to take correction into my own hands so God does not really change me. I think of how 2 Corinthians 7:10 says there is true repentance but also there is worldly sorrow. True repentance brings a person to life in God's own love, in sharing with Him and with one another; and I see this is included in having holiness of His love.

Mr. Willard says there is fasting which opens up a person to God's things; but there also can be fasting which is just one more religious item to do. And he quoted how we need to live by every word which comes from God.

So, I see he's saying how fasting can be a way of not seeking God; plus, I would add > prayer can be a way of handing God a shopping list, and not seeking Him for Himself and all He desires to share with us as His family. We need to submit to Him in order to get real correction, of how God Himself in us is transforming our nature to be more like Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

Also, Dallas says, if I understand him correctly, that holiness involves union of spirit with God, so we can get beyond practices and arrangements which are merely human.

And yes, 1 Corinthians 6:17 does say,

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

I personally see how in union with God, how God is will win out over how we are. We will become holy like God is holy, more and more as He changes us in union with Him. And so then, I would offer >

Holiness is in sharing with God.

So, this is very intimate and kind and personal with God in His own love which the Holy Spirit does share with each of us "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5).

Dallas says holiness takes us away from how this world does things. Pursuing holiness takes us into God's kingdom.

And I personally understand how God's kingdom is how God Himself is, how He is feeling and loving and all about God; so God's kingdom is God's realm of His own experience, and He does desire to share His very own kingdom-experience with us ! ! ! And in His holiness we are now sharing with Him even in how He is and how He is feeling and experiencing and loving . . . and forgiving >

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

Also, Dallas Willard points out that not only is false holiness about meeting other people's expectations, but false holiness can be what you yourself impose on yourself!!

He says that who we are is not decided by what others put on us, but it is our own choice, I think he is saying. And he says there are unique individuals in God's holiness . . . no carbon copies.

But yes ones can have one-size-fits-all outward standards and what people expect to see . . . what humans are capable of seeing and doing.

In the part of the tape which I listened to, he did not get into how we are members of each other, in Jesus. I don't know if he gets into this, but I understand we are not just unique individuals, but we are one body in Jesus, members of each other. So, we do not have totally independent identities . . . though each member is unique > we need to watch out for being independent in ways which get us isolated.

So, in my opinion, holiness is not isolation.

Plus > Jesus was in Heaven itself and had all He had going for Him; yet, Jesus truly holy did not stay in Heaven but He cared for us so He came here to share with us and bring us all to share with Him in His own good as His family > Romans 8:29.

So, Jesus is not at all conceited if He so superior and holy has so cared for ones like we have been and lived; holiness is not conceit, and not seeking superiority, then. And holiness has us "forgiving one another, even as God" > Ephesians 4:31-32. And this comes with putting away "bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking" and "all malice." (in Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, yes, holiness has to do with how God's love has us becoming, even now in this world, including as we put away cruel and dominating things in us. God's love is kind to us, "and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

So, I would say becoming holy includes how we do not trust any bickering and arguing and complaining, or any conclusions and decisions and feelings and ways of reacting and relating which are not in the peace of God ruling in our hearts >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Plus > do not worship or trust any excuses!! Because God is able >

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7)
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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The Bible says to be holy as God is holy. I think this means how God's love has us become in our character > 1 John 4:17. We trust our Heavenly Father to truly correct us > Hebrews 12:4-11 < and we discover this, so better than how we would try to change and control our own selves.

This includes becoming gentle and quiet > 1 Peter 3:4.

I think you have the right idea. It is all about love.
 
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Sabertooth

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Holiness is living in compliance with the Holy Spirit (and returning there when we fail).
I am an Aspie and I know that sounds rigid, but I believe that (as we do) we will begin to co-opt His love in the process. We were made in His image, after all.
 
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Halbhh

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Hi, everyone :) I listened only to about 1-32 minutes on the video > I can't guarantee how correctly I understand things he has said; but here is what I got out of what I listened to >

He says that there has been religious holiness which has been imposed on people, dictating their outward behavior, but not having transformation of one's heart.

He asks,

Do we need to be holy in order to go to Heaven?

And,

Aren't we saved by grace through faith?

He points out that Hebrews 12:14 says we need to pursue "holiness, without which no one will see the Lord" (in Hebrews 12:14). Yes.

And to me it is clear how Hebrews 12:4-11 says God's correction changes us to "become partakers of His holiness." So, it is so important that we actively seek God for His real correction. And this is guaranteed to us because our Heavenly Father loves us. God is committed to succeeding in us to truly correct us . . . in our character. And there is only one way our character can become, in God's correction > "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)

So, this is basic Bible, I would encourage. God is the One who is spiritual enough to change us to be how He wants us to be holy.

Dallas Willard did say that holiness is not mainly about outward behavior. It is about how you are.

And he gave the scripture which says not to love the things of this world.

I find this interesting how he brought in what not to love, in his presentation about what holiness involves and if holiness is good for us.

Yes, I would say, holiness is about how we love, along with how we are. Do not love the world or the things in the world.

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world---the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life---is not of the Father but is of the world." (1 John 2:14-15)

He says people can use their abilities to get what they want; they can organize their lives around their desires. Instead, we need to walk according to the Holy Spirit, and not according to the lusts of the flesh.

So, yes, I would say holiness has to do with our hearts' desires. And these can be connected to our real character which can decide how we are and what we want and value and love the most.

So, by the way - - - if I guilt-trip myself about my wrong ways, this is not actively seeking God for real correction!! I might be trying to use my pain on my own self, in order to take correction into my own hands so God does not really change me. I think of how 2 Corinthians 7:10 says there is true repentance but also there is worldly sorrow. True repentance brings a person to life in God's own love, in sharing with Him and with one another; and I see this is included in having holiness of His love.

Mr. Willard says there is fasting which opens up a person to God's things; but there also can be fasting which is just one more religious item to do. And he quoted how we need to live by every word which comes from God.

So, I see he's saying how fasting can be a way of not seeking God; plus, I would add > prayer can be a way of handing God a shopping list, and not seeking Him for Himself and all He desires to share with us as His family. We need to submit to Him in order to get real correction, of how God Himself in us is transforming our nature to be more like Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

Also, Dallas says, if I understand him correctly, that holiness involves union of spirit with God, so we can get beyond practices and arrangements which are merely human.

And yes, 1 Corinthians 6:17 does say,

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

I personally see how in union with God, how God is will win out over how we are. We will become holy like God is holy, more and more as He changes us in union with Him. And so then, I would offer >

Holiness is in sharing with God.

So, this is very intimate and kind and personal with God in His own love which the Holy Spirit does share with each of us "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5).

Dallas says holiness takes us away from how this world does things. Pursuing holiness takes us into God's kingdom.

And I personally understand how God's kingdom is how God Himself is, how He is feeling and loving and all about God; so God's kingdom is God's realm of His own experience, and He does desire to share His very own kingdom-experience with us ! ! ! And in His holiness we are now sharing with Him even in how He is and how He is feeling and experiencing and loving . . . and forgiving >

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

Also, Dallas Willard points out that not only is false holiness about meeting other people's expectations, but false holiness can be what you yourself impose on yourself!!

He says that who we are is not decided by what others put on us, but it is our own choice, I think he is saying. And he says there are unique individuals in God's holiness . . . no carbon copies.

But yes ones can have one-size-fits-all outward standards and what people expect to see . . . what humans are capable of seeing and doing.

In the part of the tape which I listened to, he did not get into how we are members of each other, in Jesus. I don't know if he gets into this, but I understand we are not just unique individuals, but we are one body in Jesus, members of each other. So, we do not have totally independent identities . . . though each member is unique > we need to watch out for being independent in ways which get us isolated.

So, in my opinion, holiness is not isolation.

Plus > Jesus was in Heaven itself and had all He had going for Him; yet, Jesus truly holy did not stay in Heaven but He cared for us so He came here to share with us and bring us all to share with Him in His own good as His family > Romans 8:29.

So, Jesus is not at all conceited if He so superior and holy has so cared for ones like we have been and lived; holiness is not conceit, and not seeking superiority, then. And holiness has us "forgiving one another, even as God" > Ephesians 4:31-32. And this comes with putting away "bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking with all malice." (in Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, yes, holiness has to do with how God's love has us becoming, even now in this world, including as we put away cruel and dominating things in us. God's love is kind to us, "and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

So, I would say becoming holy includes how we do not trust any bickering and arguing and complaining, or any conclusions and decisions and feelings and ways of reacting and relating which are not in the peace of God ruling in our hearts >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Plus > do not worship or trust any excuses!! Because God is able >

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7)

^^^^ A really valuable post with much very useful things for us all.

I'm really glad I came back and continued reading in it. I think you should consider repeating and/or posting these connections again such as a new OP post or at least communicating them more than once, and maybe every month or 2 for several times. :)
 
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RDKirk

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This is an example of what "holy" means in scripture:

I have a military uniform. My uniform is made up of a number of individual garments and accouterments. Each one is designated explicitly as part of the uniform by military authority superior to me.

The tie is made by a particular company of a particular material with a particular weave in a particular color. So is the shirt, the belt, the trousers, the socks...everything. I never mix "foreign" pieces with my uniform. I also never wear any pieces of my uniform with civilian clothing.

Wearing the uniform is my profession of being military. Merely wearing it is an existential statement. I only wear that military uniform when I am representing the military and when I am operating for the mission of my commander.

So my uniform is "holy" in the biblical sense: Totally dedicated, used for no other purpose except to the mission of my commander.
 
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Halbhh

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I mean personal holiness, not the Holiness of God.

I listened to this talk by Dallas Willard


Please try and listen to it before responding

While I wonder about the title "postmodern holiness"? and if he is articulating a biblical understanding of holiness, I can't help but think there is something in what he says about "modern holiness" because how he describes it is very like my Christian upbringing. While it would have immediately been agreed with that "it is the heart that God looks upon." nevertheless in a large part of the Christian culture, there was this emphasis on what you wear, etc. Places like the cinema, dance halls, clubs were deemed off limits. I am sure some people know what I am talking about. Some Christian groups were more strict than others, I don't think the one I belonged to was that strict, nevertheless we wore certain clothes on sundays. And in all honesty I was one thing inside and another outside - I would wear my sunday clothes to church to please my parents, yet during the week at school I would listen to and tell rude jokes to my classmates. I was aware of it at times. But next sunday would come, and I'd put on my sunday clothes and go to church again. I was obviously being a hypocrite. Yet the Christian culture seemed to value the externals to some extent too.

In some protestant theologies salvation just results in a change in the books of heaven, when we believe Christ's righteous is credited to our account. When God looks at our account he no longer sees a list of all our sins, he sees Christ's perfect obedience.

So what does it mean to be holy then if its not wearing one's Sunday suit and tie? Is Willard really articulating the Biblical meaning of holiness or something else?

Did you see the very good post #6 below?

After reading post #6, I might even try to watch the video, which is something I'd rarely do on any forum except for very short videos and/or music videos. :)
 
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dms1972

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Hi, everyone :) I listened only to about 1-32 minutes on the video > I can't guarantee how correctly I understand things he has said; but here is what I got out of what I listened to >

He says that there has been religious holiness which has been imposed on people, dictating their outward behavior, but not having transformation of one's heart.

He asks,

Do we need to be holy in order to go to Heaven?

And,

Aren't we saved by grace through faith?

He points out that Hebrews 12:14 says we need to pursue "holiness, without which no one will see the Lord" (in Hebrews 12:14). Yes.

And to me it is clear how Hebrews 12:4-11 says God's correction changes us to "become partakers of His holiness." So, it is so important that we actively seek God for His real correction. And this is guaranteed to us because our Heavenly Father loves us. God is committed to succeeding in us to truly correct us . . . in our character. And there is only one way our character can become, in God's correction > "as He is, so are we in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)

So, this is basic Bible, I would encourage. God is the One who is spiritual enough to change us to be how He wants us to be holy.

Dallas Willard did say that holiness is not mainly about outward behavior. It is about how you are.

And he gave the scripture which says not to love the things of this world.

I find this interesting how he brought in what not to love, in his presentation about what holiness involves and if holiness is good for us.

Yes, I would say, holiness is about how we love, along with how we are. Do not love the world or the things in the world.

"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world---the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life---is not of the Father but is of the world." (1 John 2:14-15)

He says people can use their abilities to get what they want; they can organize their lives around their desires. Instead, we need to walk according to the Holy Spirit, and not according to the lusts of the flesh.

So, yes, I would say holiness has to do with our hearts' desires. And these can be connected to our real character which can decide how we are and what we want and value and love the most.

So, by the way - - - if I guilt-trip myself about my wrong ways, this is not actively seeking God for real correction!! I might be trying to use my pain on my own self, in order to take correction into my own hands so God does not really change me. I think of how 2 Corinthians 7:10 says there is true repentance but also there is worldly sorrow. True repentance brings a person to life in God's own love, in sharing with Him and with one another; and I see this is included in having holiness of His love.

Mr. Willard says there is fasting which opens up a person to God's things; but there also can be fasting which is just one more religious item to do. And he quoted how we need to live by every word which comes from God.

So, I see he's saying how fasting can be a way of not seeking God; plus, I would add > prayer can be a way of handing God a shopping list, and not seeking Him for Himself and all He desires to share with us as His family. We need to submit to Him in order to get real correction, of how God Himself in us is transforming our nature to be more like Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

Also, Dallas says, if I understand him correctly, that holiness involves union of spirit with God, so we can get beyond practices and arrangements which are merely human.

And yes, 1 Corinthians 6:17 does say,

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

I personally see how in union with God, how God is will win out over how we are. We will become holy like God is holy, more and more as He changes us in union with Him. And so then, I would offer >

Holiness is in sharing with God.

So, this is very intimate and kind and personal with God in His own love which the Holy Spirit does share with each of us "in our hearts" (Romans 5:5).

Dallas says holiness takes us away from how this world does things. Pursuing holiness takes us into God's kingdom.

And I personally understand how God's kingdom is how God Himself is, how He is feeling and loving and all about God; so God's kingdom is God's realm of His own experience, and He does desire to share His very own kingdom-experience with us ! ! ! And in His holiness we are now sharing with Him even in how He is and how He is feeling and experiencing and loving . . . and forgiving >

"And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32)

Also, Dallas Willard points out that not only is false holiness about meeting other people's expectations, but false holiness can be what you yourself impose on yourself!!

He says that who we are is not decided by what others put on us, but it is our own choice, I think he is saying. And he says there are unique individuals in God's holiness . . . no carbon copies.

But yes ones can have one-size-fits-all outward standards and what people expect to see . . . what humans are capable of seeing and doing.

In the part of the tape which I listened to, he did not get into how we are members of each other, in Jesus. I don't know if he gets into this, but I understand we are not just unique individuals, but we are one body in Jesus, members of each other. So, we do not have totally independent identities . . . though each member is unique > we need to watch out for being independent in ways which get us isolated.

So, in my opinion, holiness is not isolation.

Plus > Jesus was in Heaven itself and had all He had going for Him; yet, Jesus truly holy did not stay in Heaven but He cared for us so He came here to share with us and bring us all to share with Him in His own good as His family > Romans 8:29.

So, Jesus is not at all conceited if He so superior and holy has so cared for ones like we have been and lived; holiness is not conceit, and not seeking superiority, then. And holiness has us "forgiving one another, even as God" > Ephesians 4:31-32. And this comes with putting away "bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking" and "all malice." (in Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, yes, holiness has to do with how God's love has us becoming, even now in this world, including as we put away cruel and dominating things in us. God's love is kind to us, "and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

So, I would say becoming holy includes how we do not trust any bickering and arguing and complaining, or any conclusions and decisions and feelings and ways of reacting and relating which are not in the peace of God ruling in our hearts >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

Plus > do not worship or trust any excuses!! Because God is able >

"casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5:7)

Thankyou for sharing your thoughts.

I think the whole issue may be very relevant, it is for myself. I refer to the modern emphasis on method, that Willard talks about.

A few years ago I started to go to a church and didn't want to be commital and just observe and listen till I figured out if it was a church I wanted to be involved with. I wasn't long going a few weeks, when I was asked if I had joined a house group. It may be that the person I was talking to a (a deaconess in the church) thought I was more interested in being involved, but I wanted things to progress in my own time. It got me thinking, this wasn't the first time I had been in a church that had house groups. A previous church I went to had drafted a five year vision statement, which included goals such as increased giving, increased attendence at mid week house groups, increased prayer as things they wanted to see occur over the next five years. Those are not bad things (although I have yet to find in my own experience the value of house groups). Its not the things in themselves however that I have an issue with, its how the goals are achieved. If these things occur because of the work of the Holy Spirit that is fine, if they occur because of pressure, manipulation, or for other reasons that not fine. Can these things become external markers of holiness also - attendence at house groups etc.

The first church I mentioned had no vision document but the pastor was big on discipleship.

"If anyone will be my disciple, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me."

What is Jesus saying here? "If anyone will be my disciple...."

Oswald Chambers interprets this as follows:

"Whenever Our Lord talked about discipleship, He always prefaced it with an "IF," never with an emphatic assertion - "You must." Discipleship carries an option with it." (My Utmost for His Highest April 24)

"Our Lord is not talking of eternal positions, but of being of value to Himself in this order of things, that is why he sounds so stern. Never interpret these word apart from the One Who uttered them." (November 2)

Oswald's interpretation kind of went against most of what I had been thinking, i still wonder about it. I had become so focused in my own mind on discipleship that I felt my salvation depended on it.

Modern thought and methods are hard to avoid, they are all around us, in the workplace, on TV, in schools and universities. Is it surprising then if they infiltrate the church.

I am not that keen on House groups (which is were a group of church members get together in one or their houses mid-week, to study in more depth the what the Pastor preaches on Sunday, to pray for one another, and perhaps to sing a hymn) Again its not an issue to me if people want to do this of themselves, but when its made a part of involvement in the church. Maybe i am wrong, but I when I used to go to church one heard the Gospel preached.

How much are modern methods at work in making disciples today?

Going back to Chambers I am trying to understand what he means. Can one be a saved without becoming a disciple of Jesus?

There does seem to be different understandings involved here.
 
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RDKirk

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Thankyou for sharing your thoughts.

I think the whole issue may be very relevant, it is for myself. I refer to the modern emphasis on method, that Willard talks about.

A few years ago I started to go to a church and didn't want to be commital and just observe and listen till I figured out if it was a church I wanted to be involved with. I wasn't long going a few weeks, when I was asked if I had joined a house group. It may be that the person I was talking to a (a deaconess in the church) thought I was more interested in being involved, but I wanted things to progress in my own time. It got me thinking, this wasn't the first time I had been in a church that had house groups. A previous church I went to had drafted a five year vision statement, which included goals such as increased giving, increased attendence at mid week house groups, increased prayer as things they wanted to see occur over the next five years. Those are not bad things (although I have yet to find in my own experience the value of house groups). Its not the things in themselves however that I have an issue with, its how the goals are achieved. If these things occur because of the work of the Holy Spirit that is fine, if they occur because of pressure, manipulation, or for other reasons that not fine. Can these things become external markers of holiness also - attendence at house groups etc.

The first church I mentioned had no vision document but the pastor was big on discipleship.

"If anyone will be my disciple, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me."

What is Jesus saying here? "If anyone will be my disciple...."

Oswald Chambers interprets this as follows:

"Whenever Our Lord talked about discipleship, He always prefaced it with an "IF," never with an emphatic assertion - "You must." Discipleship carries an option with it." (My Utmost for His Highest April 24)

"Our Lord is not talking of eternal positions, but of being of value to Himself in this order of things, that is why he sounds so stern. Never interpret these word apart from the One Who uttered them." (November 2)

Oswald's interpretation kind of went against most of what I had been thinking, i still wonder about it. I had become so focused in my own mind on discipleship that I felt my salvation depended on it.

Modern thought and methods are hard to avoid, they are all around us, in the workplace, on TV, in schools and universities. Is it surprising then if they infiltrate the church.

I am not that keen on House groups (which is were a group of church members get together in one or their houses mid-week, to study in more depth the what the Pastor preaches on Sunday, to pray for one another, and perhaps to sing a hymn) Again its not an issue to me if people want to do this of themselves, but when its made a part of involvement in the church. Maybe i am wrong, but I when I used to go to church one heard the Gospel preached.

How much are modern methods at work in making disciples today?

Going back to Chambers I am trying to understand what he means. Can one be a saved without becoming a disciple of Jesus?

There does seem to be different understandings involved here.

Oswald Chambers is wrong about discipleship being optional.

First, I think I detect in your post a particular meaning of "discipleship" that might not be what Jesus is talking about--what "being a disciple" meant in His parlance. I do know that there has been a lot of checklist methodology attached to the concept of "being a disciple" in very recent decades, and I think that's the concept you may have.

As for house groups, remember that the original congregation in Jerusalem operated with house groups:

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
....
Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts.
-- Acts 2

The congregation in Jerusalem was essentially a mega-church (as congregation actually should be--there should only be one congregation of the Body of Christ in each city). At the same time, with over 3,000 members, they had no actual church building to bring together that many people at one time, and the Body of Christ would not have such a building for another 300 years.

So for a while larger groups of them met in an area attached to the temple of the Jews in Jerusalem for generalized worship and instruction.

But they performed the physical and spiritual business of the Body of Christ in small groups in individual homes.

What was that business of the Body of Christ?

Jesus had said this:

“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions -- Mark 10

How do you get a hundred mothers in this present age? Is my mother going to come back from the dead and bear a hundred children to be my sisters and brothers?

The apostles and the other 3,000+ disciples put Jesus' words into actual practice:

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
....
And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all hat there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need
. -- Acts 4

All those activities of personal relationships was carried out in small groups in personal homes.

And I have see that even today where we have congregations that are large enough to have the resources to put Jesus' words into action, that has been best carried out when the immediate method of contact for each member is a small group that is connected in turn to ministries of the larger congregation.

I was a member of a congregation back in the 90s--Calvary Chapel of Honolulu--where the pastor then, Bill Stonebraker, had said, "Every member has a resource, every member has a need."

It's in the small groups that members can present their own various resources and at the same time bare their own various needs. The small group leader can relay those to the ministries of the larger congregation where uses can be found for resources and resources can be drawn to meet needs.
 
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com7fy8

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Can these things become external markers of holiness also - attendence at house groups etc.
If you are at a church where you need to be, I would think you would discover people who are good examples for you, and these whom you have gotten to know could be the ones to help you into the right group.

But in the same church there are likely to be even leaders who are more type A make-it-happen personalities and maybe trained but not mature with decades of discovering how to live with God and make their marriages work. So, you need to find ones who are gentle and humble but they win authority by their example. And get into group with these. In groups with qualified leaders you can pray with each other, simply in order to get more with God, and study the scriptures with discussion, and talk about yourselves and pray about however you need to get more real with God and how to relate in His love, and pray for correction which you know you need and do not realize you need.

And in case you get into a group with qualified leaders and helpers, these are the ones who are taking care of the real church; so it is good to get to know these people.

And yes this can help you become holy the way God makes us holy. We need others who are being deeply and really corrected by God, and we share with these people so we can with them become how God really makes us holy. And qualified leaders will be likely to tell you how God has been and is correcting them. They do this as examples, to encourage us and help us know what really needs correction >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

And if you have people like this, possibly they already have ministered for various others to also be into growing in Jesus and holiness. But at the same time there can be ones who are pushing and controlling things to happen.

And the groups resulting from these different people can be different.

So, in case you have been there for weeks without starting to get to know ones who are real examples for you . . . talk with people and ask about how each person's group does things.

Possibly, you do not have mature Christians in that church. Possibly there is a mix. Possibly, you are holding yourself back from making real connections with really right leadership who is there but you aren't getting with them.

Possibly, one group is legalistic about making all members tell all their personal stuff without first developing personal relationships and trust and good sense about what you tell other people > trust is not blind, but grows as ones prove themselves to each other, I now understand :)

So, I don't mean for you to hurry, but test . . . including prayerfully test how well you are being honest. But trust is what grows, I now think; it is not just turned on with a light switch.
 
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com7fy8

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The first church I mentioned had no vision document but the pastor was big on discipleship.
It, of course, depends on what we mean by discipleship. This is like our "what is holiness?" issue :) What do we mean by discipleship??

"If anyone will be my disciple, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me."

What is Jesus saying here? "If anyone will be my disciple...."

Oswald Chambers interprets this as follows:

"Whenever Our Lord talked about discipleship, He always prefaced it with an "IF," never with an emphatic assertion - "You must." Discipleship carries an option with it." (My Utmost for His Highest April 24)
"If" can be a form of requirement. If you want to have peace with God and be forgiven of your sins, you need to trust in Jesus for salvation. If you want ice cream after we eat, fine. The if's, here, have different meanings, I would say. Having peace with God is not optional, but it is commanded. Discipleship is not a dessert option!!

First, I would think that if Jesus says what you need in order to be His disciple, there is no less that He wants for us. There is no second-best. I consider that by trusting in Jesus for salvation, we begin discipleship by trusting in Jesus in order to be reconciled with God and forgiven and then living for God. You can not live for God and be doing your own thing. One repents in order to turn from one's sinning, and in order to be with God (Acts 26:18); and if we are with God we get correction.

And Hebrews 12:4-11 guarantees that our Heavenly Father personally corrects every child of His > so we "become partakers of His holiness". This is the basic process of discipleship, how in us God corrects our nature to become more and more like Jesus; and this is guaranteed for every child of God > Romans 8:29, 1 John 4:17-18.

So, I consider it unwise to consider any other possibility; in case anyone has been trusting in some idea that we can not follow Jesus but still spend eternity with Him, the Bible does not say this.

But ones are preaching a back-door salvation thing, that if someone asks Jesus to save them, they will go to Heaven even if they keep sinning and never really serve Jesus. There are ones who claim they will be in Heaven but will be "out of fellowship". But this is not being corrected by God; plus, it is not "as He is, so are we in this world" because of how "we" have been perfected in God's love (1 John 4:17).

So, in case anyone has been fooling oneself about this, but is sure he or she has trusted in Jesus, get into seeking God for real correction, and feed on and do what our Apostle Paul says >

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation," (in Philippians 2:13-16)

This scripture of our Apostle Paul confronts complaining and arguing as being anti-love sins. And by becoming strong and sensible enough to not complain or argue, we become blameless, harmless, and even "without fault" > right "in the midst of" this evil world's "crooked and perverse generation". And God commands this; so God knows it is realistic that any and all of us succeed in doing this, because of how God's grace living in us is spiritual enough to cure our nature and make us more and more like Jesus.
 
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dms1972

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Oswald Chambers is wrong about discipleship being optional.

First, I think I detect in your post a particular meaning of "discipleship" that might not be what Jesus is talking about--what "being a disciple" meant in His parlance. I do know that there has been a lot of checklist methodology attached to the concept of "being a disciple" in very recent decades, and I think that's the concept you may have.

As for house groups, remember that the original congregation in Jerusalem operated with house groups:

Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
....
Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts.
-- Acts 2

The congregation in Jerusalem was essentially a mega-church (as congregation actually should be--there should only be one congregation of the Body of Christ in each city). At the same time, with over 3,000 members, they had no actual church building to bring together that many people at one time, and the Body of Christ would not have such a building for another 300 years.

So for a while larger groups of them met in an area attached to the temple of the Jews in Jerusalem for generalized worship and instruction.

But they performed the physical and spiritual business of the Body of Christ in small groups in individual homes.

What was that business of the Body of Christ?

Jesus had said this:

“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions -- Mark 10

How do you get a hundred mothers in this present age? Is my mother going to come back from the dead and bear a hundred children to be my sisters and brothers?

The apostles and the other 3,000+ disciples put Jesus' words into actual practice:

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had.
....
And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all hat there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need
. -- Acts 4

All those activities of personal relationships was carried out in small groups in personal homes.

And I have see that even today where we have congregations that are large enough to have the resources to put Jesus' words into action, that has been best carried out when the immediate method of contact for each member is a small group that is connected in turn to ministries of the larger congregation.

I was a member of a congregation back in the 90s--Calvary Chapel of Honolulu--where the pastor then, Bill Stonebraker, had said, "Every member has a resource, every member has a need."

It's in the small groups that members can present their own various resources and at the same time bare their own various needs. The small group leader can relay those to the ministries of the larger congregation where uses can be found for resources and resources can be drawn to meet needs.


Well maybe I have taken Chambers a little out of context:

Here's a link to the place:

The Warning Against Desiring Spiritual Success | My Utmost For His Highest

As regards churches or house groups I don't think I am at that place. Anything that pressures people to take part and bare their soul, I dislike - my presence in such groups spoils their sense of community. I was told this by once by another house group member that they lost the sense of community they had.

When I went back to church it was as a complete unbeliever - I felt there was no point in anything else , but knowing that didn't make me feel like returning to church - I went inspite of myself (as I have explained in another thread) and even against myself - on a notion that perhaps by being there I might come to repentance or something. But I was not the least inclined - its hard to explain, I felt very much I was going against myself. I went for a number of years, and did get involved in a few ways. But I was doing it all in unbelief to be honest. That is just were things are at with me. I know plenty about christianity. But I probably had never experienced a complete conversion. I spoke to the pastor at times and he would say "you seem to still be looking for something for yourself." like that wasn't the way things are supposed to be. That is true I suppose I was looking for something to re-awaken me, or convict me. All the same there were others there not involved, and I did try to help with some tasks But I am in a kind of nihilistic state, I can't seem to motivate myself in any direction. I have been to other christian groups, one was Young Life, a fairly evangelistic group! I was guilt tripped into taking part in a mission trip - I went and hated it (I have no gift for working with children at least as I am at the minute) left halfway through the week and came home. People just don't see where I am at in myself (which is perhaps my own fault because I maybe disguise it a bit) I'd go to a church if it understood my position, however I am not sure I could explain it myself , and some churches are not apt to help unbelievers, its assumed you are at least a seeker. I'd find it difficult to be open with some christians. There isn't always the understanding. And its hard to share when you are not sure where you are at.
 
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com7fy8

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I am grateful for the replies even though i find it hard to explain were I am at.
I would say you have made yourself very clear. Thank you for sharing such personal and sensitive things with us.

My opinion is if a home group is meant for people who are believers to share and pray and worship personally with each other, then the group might not be for you. And so, I can see why ones might say they do not feel that you are contributing to their community. But this does not mean you should not be in a group; but I would say find who has some grasp of how you are doing and that person expects you to join in the person's group, and others there know how you are doing.

But I would not go along with anyone guilt-tripping you to do something. But do evaluate if it could be good for you.

I think of this. Possibly you are discovering how words alone can not tell others about yourself. Well, God's word by itself does not tell us, really, how God is and all He desires for us. But God gives us His word, then shares personally with us, including correcting and adjusting and tuning us spiritually, so we become able to share and communicate deeper than words with God Himself. And deeper than His words we discover all He means, in His love.

I would say that all of us have at least at some time tried to communicate with certain people, but the people did not get it. We have done this in marriages and in friendships. We could not understand why certain people did not want us, did not get what we were saying to them. And, oftentimes, we could feel like we were all by ourselves and others did not understand us. But the true reality is that a lot of us, if not all, have all been going through this same basic thing, and we have supposed each of us is the only one who nobody else understands or who is not understood by certain family and church people.

And so each of us has been isolated in feeling like this . . . feeling the same experience, more or less, while others also are supposing they are the only ones who someone or everyone does not or can not understand.

Each one can think he or she is the only one.

So, when Jesus tells us we need to deny ourselves, this is included > we need to stop letting ourselves be fooled into being isolated. Deny that self person in us, who can act up and suffer about being all alone. And get with Jesus so we can love and care for any and all people. Then, in our loving, even if and while others even reject us, we stay busy with submitting to Jesus and sharing with Him in loving and caring for any and all people.

Be ready for love. There are people who do not know how to love you or anyone else, really. But do not allow unloving people to decide how you are. Stay ready for love, so you are a good example to ones who do not know how to love, plus you are ready for whenever God blesses you to share with someone who is a Jesus person. Do not accept and carry with you what has come from evil and unloving people, then; but keep ready for how you can love with others, while being an example whom God can use to help ones who do not know how to love. God does change people into how Jesus is and loves. So, this is the worthwhile investment :)
 
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com7fy8

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I mean personal holiness, not the Holiness of God.

Holiness is in sharing with God.
"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

In union with us, God shares with us how He is in His love. Holiness has to do with how God is, versus how we humans can be. So, in Christianity we can not have our own personal holiness, dms. Because God is the One who makes us holy in our nature. This comes with His personal correction in us > Hebrews 12:4-11. And then we become more and more how His love is > 1 Corinthians 13.

So, if we are getting frustrated and struggling and suffering and confused in our efforts to make ourselves right and holy, this is because only God in us is able to change us to real holiness, which is in His love in the Holy Spirit > Romans 5:5 >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

So, part of being saved by Jesus is being rescued from our own human-selfish ways of loving. And His love has almighty power to keep us safe from cruel and nasty things like fear > 1 John 4:18.

So, we all need this, don't we? We all are wise to seek our Heavenly Father for how He is able to correct and cure us in His love.

So, holiness has to do with how God's love is, because God's love is so better than we have been human.
 
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com7fy8

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@dms1972 >

Minutes 31-39 > what I understand Dallas is saying >

Here, Dallas is talking about what is subjective, which could be what you mean by personal holiness. We are not carbon copies of other people, yes, but in holiness we are meant to be joined inwardly with God's life. Our personalities are different but the holiness we need is the same for all of us.

In case we are devoted to outward forms, he says, and legalistic righteousness, this can not provide us with the resources we really need.

Buying a perfume can make you unique, along with ten thousand other women.

We need His grace to make us restored to how God wants each of us to be a unique individual. We need to repent, as the pathway to healing and wholeness, he says. This gets us with God and so in good relation with the universe. And knowing God and Jesus is eternal life. Eternal living is intimate and integral relating with God. With God, we can see what is good and live in it.

This is what integrity is about > all that is of each of us is integrated so all functions well, of personality, mind, feelings, what your body is ready to do . . . all is healed. And we can do what is good.

By the way > I would say God's word is very clear how no one becomes wholely integrated and holy, on one's own. We need each other, we feed each other, as members of each other.

Back to what I understand that Dallas is saying >

Things work out well; we are with the Holy Spirit, so things are better than we would do. We see how it is not us doing what is so good. All is what we can not accomplish on our own.

Yes, I would say, and this means the process of becoming holy involves God proving Himself to you!!! :):)

I think he is saying that on the inside you are joined with God, and so you are living with God, and this begins to pull all within us together in submission to what is good. We are not torn by our desires.

The above is what I understand Dallas to be saying.

I would like to comment on how with God we are not torn by our desires. There are selfish pleasure and control-seeking drives which can waste us and keep us mixed up and messed up. There are things we can be hooked on so we can not let go of them, and so, for example, we can argue and our arguing spoils how we could be relating and discovering how to love. This is one example of how desires can get us hurt and torn.

You can read 1 Peter 2:11 with James 4:1, about how lusts can get people in trouble. Holiness includes becoming more and more free from how dominating and dictatorial passions try to control and weaken us and get us away from loving.

So, this is subjective . . . personal . . . in each of us; but also it is accomplished by God. So, we can not have this without God.
 
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