What is Hell, according to Oriental Orthodoxy?

[TheLostCoin]

So, I’ve heard Catholics describe hell as a state of separation, which God sends people for those who reject Him, and it’s almost 100% of the time described as a location with tormenting demons.

Eastern Orthodoxy views it differently, where it is rather an experience of God for those who reject it - the Lake of Fire almost being a sort of incomprehensible symbolism, with the lake streaming forth from the Son in iconography.

What do the Oriental Orthodox think about this? For the longest while I just assumed it was the same as Eastern Orthodoxy, especially in regards to the Ethiopic version of the Apocalypse of Peter (a noncanonical Book that is not without influence or importance - as Saint Clement of Alexandria saw it as canonical and it’s the earliest written document in Church history to condemn abortions, where women who commit abortions are condemned), but in regards to Pope Shenouda III being more critical of Eastern Orthodox understandings of Palamism, I’m curious what it is.

 

[Silverback]

So, I’ve heard Catholics describe hell as a state of separation, which God sends people for those who reject Him, and it’s almost 100% of the time described as a location with tormenting demons.

Eastern Orthodoxy views it differently, where it is rather an experience of God for those who reject it - the Lake of Fire almost being a sort of incomprehensible symbolism, with the lake streaming forth from the Son in iconography.

What do the Oriental Orthodox think about this? For the longest while I just assumed it was the same as Eastern Orthodoxy, especially in regards to the Ethiopic version of the Apocalypse of Peter (a noncanonical Book that is not without influence or importance - as Saint Clement of Alexandria saw it as canonical and it’s the earliest written document in Church history to condemn abortions, where women who commit abortions are condemned), but in regards to Pope Shenouda III being more critical of Eastern Orthodox understandings of Palamism, I’m curious what it is.

I believe it is separation from God, no providence, no prayer, no scripture, no comfort, and nothing but constant regret, dispare, anxiety, depression, and hopelessness. None of the accomplishments of our lives will be remembered, only the personal guilt of our own sin, and shame, and it will never end. This is what everyone deserves, but some will escape by God's amazing grace, for Christ sake through faith. Even me, the first, and greatest among sinners.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't know anything about HH Pope Shenouda III having writings critical of Palamism, but the one sermon I have heard from him about this in general (which used to be available in with English subtitles, but now seems not to be, sadly; it was called in Arabic "Baed el mout mafeesh forsa", or "After death their is no chance") said only that the condemned will not have a chance to change their ways after death. I'm not sure where that falls relative to whatever Palamism would state. It's probably not related because it's a slightly different question (probably made to answer Mormons and others who might believe that we can accept God after death), but he does go in to a bit of a description based on various Bible passages which seems heavily metaphorical (e.g., they wait outside the door, knocking but unable to come in, etc.)

I did however just find this video from a channel called "Coptic Orthodox Answers" with Fr. Gabriel Wissa which goes into more detail.

It seems that we are not literalists about the fires of hell (the fire is a kind of spiritual fire), and according to Fr. Gabriel HH Pope Shenouda directly answered such questions by saying no, it is not a literal fire. Not that HH is the emperor of the Coptic Orthodox Church or whatever to begin with, but since he was brought up I think it's good to clarify. Again, I don't know how any of this compares to Palamism, but this is what I have been able to find in a brief search.

I really like the reading from St. Anthony from Fr. Gabriel's explanation. This rings true with what I have seen in the prayers of the liturgy and the Agpeya and such.

 

[rakovsky]

Good points, Dzheremi.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I really like the reading from St. Anthony from Fr. Gabriel's explanation. This rings true with what I have seen in the prayers of the liturgy and the Agpeya and such.

It's interesting on this kind of subject many years ago on OrthodoxChristianity.net I quoted a position given by my local Coptic priest, this was on "the prayers for the dead" but was framed concerning this issue. My priest at the time, gave the answer like Pope Shedouda (The people who did not die in Faith, grace etc. have no hope), but on the issue of prayers for the dead, he said "we pray for the dead just because the Church says we should".


Anyway there was this one very well read Coptic guy who really took issue with that. He seemed to indicate a position that might be closer to the EO. That the Church has a role of as an intercessor, and that things aren't over until the White Throne Judgement. etc. And he was a person very well read on many of the Oriental Fathers etc.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Anyway there was this one very well read Coptic guy who really took issue with that. He seemed to indicate a position that might be closer to the EO. That the Church has a role of as an intercessor, and that things aren't over until the White Throne Judgement. etc. And he was a person very well read on many of the Oriental Fathers etc.

I don't even think the Eastern Orthodox Church has such a clear position. I've heard different ideas from "Hades as a temporary place where people can be changed," to "Hades is permanent for those eventually condemned to Hell," to "Due to the timelessness of Heaven, you'll face the Last Judgment immediately after death," to the Toll Houses, where "Demons will drag you to Hell if you've lived too sinful of a life," etc.

The only thing that seems consistent in this regard is that Hell is not the separation from God's presence, because God is omnipresent, but rather is God's presence.

 

[dzheremi]

It's interesting on this kind of subject many years ago on OrthodoxChristianity.net I quoted a position given by my local Coptic priest, this was on "the prayers for the dead" but was framed concerning this issue. My priest at the time, gave the answer like Pope Shedouda (The people who did not die in Faith, grace etc. have no hope), but on the issue of prayers for the dead, he said "we pray for the dead just because the Church says we should".

Hmm. See, I read HH's position a little differently, I think, because it seemed to me in that sermon he is saying that they (the dead themselves) have no chance to change where they have put themselves after death, which to me does not say anything one way or another about whether or not we have have such a chance to plead for mercy for them.

I pray for my dear departed mother still, over 20 years after her passing, and she died as a Protestant. I will listen to our leaders, of course, but I have not heard anywhere that we are to give up hope for others. Indeed, I think "we pray for the dead because the Church says we should" is a fine answer, in this context: we cannot say for sure what God will do for each individual at resurrection and the final judgment. We can only affirm that this life is given to us for repentance, and it would be wrong to think that we didn't have to take it seriously because what if we were given some chance to change our minds and our ways after death, as some cults like the Mormons say.

Anyway there was this one very well read Coptic guy who really took issue with that. He seemed to indicate a position that might be closer to the EO. That the Church has a role of as an intercessor, and that things aren't over until the White Throne Judgement. etc.

Oh. I think I misunderstood this part of your post until just now...I think I might've just written that, or something very similar to it.

And he was a person very well read on many of the Oriental Fathers etc.

Well there is sort of an ongoing argument over whether or not it was right for the Holy Synod to remove the three lines from the Sagda prayers that dealt most directly with this (I can't remember which ones they were right now; I'm sure they'll come up if you search "Coptic Orthodox sagda prayers" or similar), so maybe this is something we're unsettled on at the moment because of that. I am pretty much always of the "Why mess with things" camp, but I have to also admit that this is well above my pay grade, since I don't know the history of the prayers themselves, if maybe there were some translation or comprehension issues, etc. If they shouldn't have been removed, then they should be restored so as to follow most closely what we have been given; if they simply needed to be re-translated, then that should happen, as has already happened before with other prayers. (Aside: I hope someday soon we will be nativized well enough in the English-speaking world to get translations done by native English speakers so that we can hopefully cut down on these types of problems.)

 

[archer75]

I see this thread is quiet, but I will ask anyway: I have heard the EO position that we pray for them not only because the Church says to, but also because God heard those prayers in eternity and even pre-eternally, and He can answer them in any way at all, including during the person's earthly life (which to us is over) or in their heart in some way that is unknown or even unknowable to us. Is this consistent with Coptic belief?

 

[rakovsky]

For the longest while I just assumed it was the same as Eastern Orthodoxy, especially in regards to the Ethiopic version of the Apocalypse of Peter (a noncanonical Book that is not without influence or importance - as Saint Clement of Alexandria saw it as canonical), but in regards to Pope Shenouda III being more critical of Eastern Orthodox understandings of Palamism, I’m curious what it is.

Thanks for bringing up the Apocalypse of Peter, which scholars tend to read as having the idea that those in hell could be saved due to the prayers of the righteous like Peter. I am not aware of the idea of the salvation of the sinners from hell being common in traditional Christian writings. It shows up again in the Christian Sibyllines, and in Origen's theory of Apocatastasis. I can see a connection in that the Apocalypse of Peter, much or all of the Sibyllines, and Origen's writings are all commonly considered to be written in Egypt. Pope Theophilus of Alexandria opposed Origen's followers in the 5th century for teaching God's incorporeality, and the EOs' 5th Ecumenical Council rejected what it considered to be Origen's theory of Apocatastasis. But I am not aware of the OOs formally rejecting Origen's teaching of Apocatastasis (Restoration) like the EOs apparently have. Maybe they have.