What is God's Role in the Current Pandemic?

[Ivan Hlavanda]

"This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel"
Peter, Acts 2:16, 1st century AD

I have read this chapter. And it does fulfil part of Joel's prophecy, chapter 2:28-29

Acts 2:17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

Last days refers to present era of redemptive history from the first coming of Christ to His return. One of the characteristics of the future reign of Christ is the abundant outpouring of the Holy Spirit. On the Day of Pentecost, Peter recognised that the outpouring anticipated an even greater outpouring yet to come. So while Joel's prophecy may have started back then, the prophecy is still being fulfilled until Christ's second return.

Joel 2:30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke."

These wonders in heaven and earth began in the First Coming and "Passion of Christ, grew in the destruction of Jerusalem, but shall be perfectly fulfilled toward the end of the world, before the final Judgement, and the destruction of the Universe." And because this prophecy is still being fulfilled, I do believe that the plague Joel is referring to in his chapter, that it's a warning to Israel to repent and turn their heart towards to God, he is also referring to every plague until the end of the world, that God still uses plagues as a warning for us to turn to Him and repent.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Remember that the Book of Job is an extended parable teaching a moral lesson. The "disasters" were fictional.

I believe all these disasters happened to Job, as did every disaster in the Bible, Sodom and Gomora, the Flood etc.

 

[solid_core]

I have read this chapter. And it does fulfil part of Joel's prophecy, chapter 2:28-29

Acts 2:17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

Last days refers to present era of redemptive history from the first coming of Christ to His return. One of the characteristics of the future reign of Christ is the abundant outpouring of the Holy Spirit. On the Day of Pentecost, Peter recognised that the outpouring anticipated an even greater outpouring yet to come. So while Joel's prophecy may have started back then, the prophecy is still being fulfilled until Christ's second return.

Joel 2:30 "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke."

These wonders in heaven and earth began in the First Coming and "Passion of Christ, grew in the destruction of Jerusalem, but shall be perfectly fulfilled toward the end of the world, before the final Judgement, and the destruction of the Universe." And because this prophecy is still being fulfilled, I do believe that the plague Joel is referring to in his chapter, that it's a warning to Israel to repent and turn their heart towards to God, he is also referring to every plague until the end of the world, that God still uses plagues as a warning for us to turn to Him and repent.

I do not think you can do a surgery on Joel 2 and took just one verse out of it and say it was about the 1st century AD while the rest is still our future.

Joel 2 is about one era, all described events there are interconnected.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I am open to various possibilities. Fiction, history, or a mixture of both

I do believe it all happened. I don't consider any event that happened in Bible to be a fiction.

But the point is, that the meaning of those written disasters in the book of Job is neither punishment nor a call to repentance.

That is correct, and maybe I should have said that not every single disaster is a punishment/ or a call to repentance. Although one can argue that these disasters happened to Job specifically so they were aimed at him. This current pandemic is however fell all over the world, thus I do believe as it is with every major epidemic, this is a call to God for us to repent and at the same time it is a punishment for all our sins.

 

[solid_core]

I do believe it all happened. I don't consider any event that happened in Bible to be a fiction.

There is no way how to prove or disprove it and it also is not any article of basic Christian faith, so why not. I do not think it changes anything, the point of the story is still the same, be the persons in it fiction or real.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

There is no way how to prove or disprove it and it also is not any article of basic Christian faith, so why not. I do not think it changes anything, the point of the story is still the same, be the persons in it fiction or real.

Is there not? If there is evidence now evidence of the Flood, Sodom and Gomora (look it up), where the Mount Sinai is, discovered by Ron Wyatt, why wouldn't this also be a real event?

 

[solid_core]

Is there not? If there is evidence now evidence of the Flood, Sodom and Gomora (look it up), where the Mount Sinai is, discovered by Ron Wyatt, why wouldn't this also be a real event?

Because there is no evidence of Job.

Also, the story about satan coming to God and God talking with him about Job and then testing Job just to show something to Satan does not seem very real.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I do not think you can do a surgery on Joel 2 and took just one verse out of it and say it was about the 1st century AD while the rest is still our future.

Joel 2 is about one era, all described events there are interconnected.

The prophecy of Joel, I believe is all happening in final days...and final days refers to a period that is happening between the resurrection and Christ's return. So the capture of Jerusalem in 70AD is indeed partly fulfilling of this prophecy but it is not fully fulfilled. The prophecy is being fulfilled during the whole final days, but we are still living before God's final judgement, which will start happening by Jesus's second coming. I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.
Because if this is still happening, then the message about plagues is still the same, and the world plagues are still the same like they were back in the day of Joel and that they are still a warning from God to repent

 

[solid_core]

The prophecy of Joel, I believe is all happening in final days...and final days refers to a period that is happening between the resurrection and Christ's return. So the capture of Jerusalem in 70AD is indeed partly fulfilling of this prophecy but it is not fully fulfilled. The prophecy is being fulfilled during the whole final days, but we are still living before God's final judgement, which will start happening by Jesus's second coming. I hope you understand what I am trying to say here.
Because if this is still happening, then the message about plagues is still the same, and the world plagues are still the same like they were back in the day of Joel and that they are still a warning from God to repent

I understand what you are saying - that final days last for 2,000 years (so far). You are a historicist (as opposed to preterists or futurists).

I do not think the text itself indicate it will be long, though. Jesus said that everything will be poured on His generation.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Because there is no evidence of Job.

Also, the story about satan coming to God and God talking with him about Job and then testing Job just to show something to Satan does not seem very real.

Satan coming to God to snitch on us is very consistent with book of revelation, where it is revealed that Satan snitches on all of us to God, because Satan wants to destroy us all

 

[solid_core]

Satan coming to God to snitch on us is very consistent with book of revelation, where it is revealed that Satan snitches on all of us to God, because Satan wants to destroy us all

And the book of Revelation is...(drums)... not literal.

So you said that the symbolic book of Revelation is consistent with the book of Job, which therefore should not be literal too.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Ah, see I do believe it is literal, and that the events of it are indeed happening right now. Remember the 7 seals and the 7 bowls of wrath that the angels will pour? I do believe this is happening and the things are in motion.
May I ask, and I do not mean this in offensive way, why do you believe some parts of the Bible to be factual and some fictional? If some events in the Bible are factual, shouldn't they be all? Why just some and not the others? Do we need evidence to say they are factual?

 

[solid_core]

Ah, see I do believe it is literal, and that the events of it are indeed happening right now. Remember the 7 seals and the 7 bowls of wrath that the angels will pour? I do believe this is happening and the things are in motion.
May I ask, and I do not mean this in offensive way, why do you believe some parts of the Bible to be factual and some fictional? If some events in the Bible are factual, shouldn't they be all? Why just some and not the others? Do we need evidence to say they are factual?

I see no reason to conclude that if some parts of the bible are fictional or symbolic, then all in bible must be fictional or symbolic.

Bible is a huge library of various books and genres, from mythology through poetry, prophecy and visions to historic records and letters.

Song of Song is something different than Acts of Apostles and Revelation is something different than Psalms etc.

 

[Robban]

This was the title of another thread to which I am unable to respond. I do not believe that God has in any way caused this affliction either as a punishment or as a test. To me, God simply does not work in that way. But that does not mean that is absent in all of this. God can be found in the ways in which we respond to the crisis:
* do we follow the rules?
* do we look for loopholes?
* are we hoarding?
* are we gouging?
* are we helping those who are suffering?
The list goes on. God is present in all of this but only at a personal moral/ethical level.

In anticipation of the Messiah.

The question maybe, what is our role in this plague/pandemic?

Before times there was a skin illness called, "Tzaraat"

often mistaken for leprosy.

It was spread by hatespeech, gossip, negativity,
slander.

One famous case was Miriam, she was sent outside the camp and isolated for seven days.

It was not a punishment but rehabilitation,
to be isolated and think through and come to one,s self.

There is a spiritual element to it.

Judaism does not believe in free speach.

Talking ill of your neighbour, even if it is truth,
is unequivocally banned.
In fact the Talmud equates gossip mongering with
idolatry, licentiousness and murder------

The three cardinal sins--combined.

With the Messiah so close should there not be a cleansing, sending masses into isolation to rehabilitate?

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

This was the title of another thread to which I am unable to respond. I do not believe that God has in any way caused this affliction either as a punishment or as a test. To me, God simply does not work in that way. But that does not mean that is absent in all of this. God can be found in the ways in which we respond to the crisis:
* do we follow the rules?
* do we look for loopholes?
* are we hoarding?
* are we gouging?
* are we helping those who are suffering?
The list goes on. God is present in all of this but only at a personal moral/ethical level.

God gave MAN dominion over the earth. And Jesus gave us authority in His name over sin and sickness. So if there is any fault, it is ours (either collectively, and/or someone's, if it was intentionally loosed or spread).