WHAT IS GOD'S GRACE FOR?

[Guojing]

Why do you think Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD if the church is supposed to become "salt of the earth?" Salt was a major preservative in those days.

Look at what Jesus said to believers who were paying attention to Him...

“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt should become-tasteless, with
what will it be salted? It no longer has strength for anything except, having
been thrown outside, to be trampled-underfoot by men." Mat 5:13

​

The Jewish church in Jerusalem failed miserably to become "salt" for their land. They desired legalism (zealous for the Law) and in doing so neglected walking in grace and truth. The result of their apostasy? After much patience from God, in 70 AD Jerusalem was trampled underfoot by Titus and the Roman army. The Jewish church ceased. The first church was Jerusalem, not Rome.

We are here to become a blessing to our own land. To "become salt" by seeking and desiring sound doctrine as we keep walking in the Spirit. If a land is to be invaded Satan likes to send in his emissaries of false Bible teaching as to eventually force God to remove His national protection/blessings that only manifest when enough believers within that land are walking in sound doctrine.

That is why Bible teaching should go beyond simply having a healthy intellectual curiosity. For our national defense depends upon having enough believers wanting and receiving sound teaching.. They must be willing to prove all things as they continue on their walk in God's grace enabling power. The power that comes from the Spirit making us able to comprehend spiritual truths.

grace and peace .........

I see, so its not just Peter, but you also believe James fumbled too.

Alright, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Guojing]

Now... in plain English.

What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we
tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men,
join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have
their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports
about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

​

And, what was the result of Paul becoming weak and conforming to the legalistic Jewish believers?

Paul came within an inch of losing his life in a riot that started in the Temple when Jews there saw him being a part of a ritual prescribed by the Law.

For a short while Paul slipped into the terrible Heb 6:4-6 mind set. Paul repented, and was sent away by Rome in chains.

To say the least, God was not pleased with Paul's willingness to turn a blind eye and deny the very teaching of grace he was becoming a proponent of to the Gentiles.

Yes.. Paul failed at one point in his walk. We all do.

There are some people who believed Paul made a mistake to go to Jerusalem HQ in Acts 21, so I can understand where you are coming from.

 

[GenemZ]

I see, so its not just Peter, but you also believe James fumbled too.

Alright, thanks for clarifying.

Until we mature.. count on it. We all make stupid mistakes. Those who do not learn from their mistakes will lose rewards and be denied honor from the Lord.

 

[Guojing]

Until we mature.. count on it. We all make stupid mistakes. Those who do not learn from their mistakes will lose rewards and be denied honor from the Lord.

I believe there is a reason why Hebrews to Revelation, the books are placed after Romans to Philemon.

During the Tribulation, after the Body of Christ is raptured, salvation is once again based on faith and works. Revelation 14:12

So in that sense, James 2:24-26, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7 will also be correct, but during the Tribulation period.

 

[Thuycidides]

Didn't I already quoted what James himself said in James 2:14-26?

James taught that the 12 tribes cannot have faith without works, and expect to be saved.

The book of James was written years before the event in Acts 21.

As for your point about what Jesus said regarding the Law, post resurrection, the last verse of Matthew says

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

which includes Matthew 5:17-20 regarding the Law

"As for your point about what Jesus said regarding the Law, post resurrection, the last verse of Matthew says: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Which includes Matthew 5:17-20 regarding the Law."

That is a fair try, but not accurate: Jesus' farewell just before ascension commissioning them to teach what He just commanded them for the past 40 days after His resurrection as per Acts 1.

Which does not include Matthew 5, unless He repeated Himself after resurrection.

1. Jesus preaching as a Jew under the law of Moses is not Jesus commanding as the Risen Savior of the whole world. Moses of old is as old and done away as the Old Covenant.

Except with those that remain in the old, with the vail of Moses undone away from your hearts.

2. The apostles did not decree Circumcision unnecessary for salvation, but then necessary for obedience to law of Moses.

The zealots did not 'appreciate' any such departure from circumcision. James was not commending their zealotry of carnal-minded self-righteousness.

3. Faith without works is dead, and the works of the law of Christ will be done by faith. The works of the law of Moses are past and vanished away with the Old Covenant.

 

[Thuycidides]

We have more than one kind of life. That is where "rightly dividing the Word of God" steps in.

Jesus did not lay down his spiritual life on the Cross. He died spiritually. The life he voluntarily laid down was that of being God. He had to do so in order to save His sheep.

Philippian 2:6-8

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

grace and peace.......

Agreed. He laid His Godhead down, when He came down to be born of a woman. And He laid His bodily life down on the cross. And He was separated from God for our sins shortly beforehand.

He took up His resurrected body and eternal Life as God again from the tomb.

 

[Thuycidides]

Really? Yet, all through the physical torture Christ uttered no sound but the second our sins hit Him He screamed "my God, my God why have you forsaken me". His spiritual agony far outweighed His physical agony.

True. He wasn't thirsting for water, but for the Spirit of God.

God forsaken of God for sins of man.

The only 'spiritual life' He laid down was His Godhead coming down to be born of a woman.

He laid His bodily life down on the cross, when He breathed out His last at will. That is the point in which all things changed in heaven and in earth.

The sin debt was paid for with the shedding of blood and separation by sins, but forgiveness was never available, until the sacrifice was dead. Bodily.

 

[Thuycidides]

He didn't just become separated, He was forsaken. We all are born separated from God but no-one has been forsaken, only Christ. You only need look at all the times the Lord reached out to man to see He never forsook us even though we should have been because of our sin.

"I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him." (Judges 16)

Christ is the only One who knew it the moment it occurred.

 

[Thuycidides]

Are you aware that the cross was supposed to be Daniel's 69th week?

We are aware they were told to return to Jerusalem and receive power of Holy Ghost to be witnesses in Judea and all the world, and that His return time was not to be known.

Therefore, the only 'urgency' the apostles had was that of finding a replacement for Judas in order to fill out their ranks.

They went about trying to do for the Lord, what the Lord only does for Himself in His ministry.

Jesus only builds His church, and Jesus only calls ministers to build up His church.

The worst calling to God's ministry is made by men, either calling and persuading themselves, or being called and persuaded by other men.

If indeed the 12th apostle of the Lord to be helping to lay the very foundation and doctrine of Christ for all believers present and future, was actually chosen by lot thrown by men, then any and everything having to do with ministry and life in Christ is open lot cast by men.

So, next time you really want to know the Lord's will and decision on matters of utmost importance in faith? Cast a lot, or have some leader do it for you. Otherwise, you don't seriously believe what you are trying to teach.

 

[Thuycidides]

If God did not agree to provide the atonement of the Cross? mankind would have been thrown into God's garbage can... like with all the prehistoric life that was "no more."

If Jesus was not 'forsaken' in our place? Man might not even be here at this time.

The difference between Jesus and us? Being sinless, he could only be forsaken as long as our sins were there to pour. After no more was left to pour? Jesus being sinless, popped right back to full relationship with the Father.

In the means while.. God made sure that all men would die physically, so the number of sins would be finite. After we die we will never see the body we now have ever again. It will become a new type of body without sin...

Now... if Adam had ran to the Tree of Life and snatched its fruit and gobbled it down? Jesus would have had to remain hanging on the Cross with no end. For, Adam in his sinful body would have lived forever...

Contemplation time break time needed...

Very interesting again.

Lest he eat and live forever as a god trying to be like one of us in corrupt body by corrupted blood, and so sins be multiplied and abound for ever...

God is love, and all His works are for that end.

 

[Thuycidides]

"But this is the same kind of thing that was spoken by the prophet Joel." Acts 2:16 ​

Peter was giving the Jews something they could become stabilized by and relate to, as to what was taking place with the Tongues phenomena. He was telling the Jews, while using the Torah for a frame of reference, that "this is something like that" which Joel spoke of.

For, it was not the actual even taking place which is reserved for the future event. It stabilized them.
Joel speaks of the Millennial kingdom that the Jews were all preoccupied about at that time.

The Church was a hidden mystery to the Jews. The Jews did know the Millennial Kingdom from the Torah. The reason for that mystery being hidden to the Jews about the church? The leadership for the Millennial kingdom is now being recruited and trained to reign with the Messiah= the church.

Obviously, not every member of the Church will qualify to reign with Christ. Those who insist upon a false narrative concerning the Scriptures will be denied such an honor.

"this is something like that" which Joel spoke of."

That's a nice idea, but the language in greek and english is this is, not this is as...

All those washed in the blood of the Lamb and loved not their own lives to the end shall have part in the 1st resurrection and reign with Him: that would be every believer that is a member of His body in particular: has part in His body, so has part in the likeness of His resurrection

 

[Thuycidides]

If you are expecting the kingdom to begin anytime soon, and if the Holy Spirit himself confirmed that that is still the correct timetable, you need to have 12 apostles because there are 12 tribes of Israel.

So Peter is correct in choosing Matthias in Acts 1.

Paul was never meant to be among the 12. Christ chose him to reach gentiles, after Israel the nation has fallen when she stoned Stephen.

The promised kingdom has been postponed indefinitely after Acts 7.

They were actually expecting Jesus to ascend and then return right away, and God needed send angels to scoot them along and do as the Lord had just commanded.

1. Just told not for them to know the time of restoration.
2. Return and receive power and be my witnesses in all the world.

The only 'urgency' they had was the same 'urgency' of all believers: Even so, come, Lord Jesus. NOW.

The only reason they made effort to fill the void was because they knew the void would be filled by Scriptural prophecy: "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled... Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take...unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

They made a common humanistic leap of error with Scripture: they went from rightly understanding that Scripture foretold with necessity of the fall of Judas and his replacement of another, to a mistaken urgency to fill it themselves (with the Lord's help, of course)

In fact, if they had been reading distinctly enough, then they would have seen Judas replacement would take his office, not be given it by other men.

Seriously, it's not just the casting of lot. But worse than that, exactly how did they come to appoint two men for the Lord to choose from???

I think that believers who utterly refuse to see error of ministry by the apostles, no matter how honest and sincere, are even more afraid to see error of ministry by those leaders they have placed their trust in. Which is a huge mistake.

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help." (Psalm 146)

 

[GenemZ]

Agreed. He laid His Godhead down, when He came down to be born of a woman. And He laid His bodily life down on the cross. And He was separated from God for our sins shortly beforehand.

He took up His resurrected body and eternal Life as God again from the tomb.

Just to clarify a few details, please.

His body became transformed and glorified when he returned. And, when he came down the first time the way he pre-existed as the Lord God of Israel was without any need for a physical body. His two natures were Deity and Soul - no body.

Here is The Lord being shown with two natures in the Torah.

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the
new. Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul
will not reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God,
and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to
serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because of the
trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked
one, and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

Man in his essence is soul. God is not soul.

The essence of God is 'spirit.'

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers
will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the
kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his
worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” Jn 4:23-24​

The incarnation was manifested when the Lord God having been both full deity and fully soul in his function denied himself to his rightful full powers of full Deity, and by means of his soul of Jehovah entered the body provided for him by means of the virgin birth of Mary.

Mary's ovum was free of the sin nature. Its the male sperm that passes on the sin nature. Therefore, the Holy Spirit supplied the needed *perfect* genetic material to fertilize the Ovum of Mary as promised in Genesis 3:15.

That's a lot on your plate?

Would you like a "doggy bag," sir?

 

[GenemZ]

"this is something like that" which Joel spoke of."

That's a nice idea, but the language in greek and english is this is, not this is as...

All those washed in the blood of the Lamb and loved not their own lives to the end shall have part in the 1st resurrection and reign with Him: that would be every believer that is a member of His body in particular: has part in His body, so has part in the likeness of His resurrection

I was shown that the Greek was idiomatic and the way it could be used as shown. Obviously, we are not living in the Millennium as Joel was prophesying. Peter was trying to give the Jews a point of reference from the Torah to show it was how God could operate, and will some day.

Here is the pastor-scholar you gave that rendering from the Greek meanings.
R. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries | HomeR. B. Thieme, Jr., Bible Ministries | Home

 

[Thuycidides]

If you are expecting the kingdom to begin anytime soon, and if the Holy Spirit himself confirmed that that is still the correct timetable, you need to have 12 apostles because there are 12 tribes of Israel.

So Peter is correct in choosing Matthias in Acts 1.

Paul was never meant to be among the 12. Christ chose him to reach gentiles, after Israel the nation has fallen when she stoned Stephen.

The promised kingdom has been postponed indefinitely after Acts 7.

"If you are expecting the kingdom to begin anytime soon" Wrongly. Jesus just told them there was the whole earth to be witnesses to first.

"if the Holy Spirit himself confirmed that that is still the correct timetable" And had not in Acts 1.

"you need to have 12 apostles because there are 12 tribes of Israel." So, 2 false 'ifs' makes for one bogus 'need'.

"Paul was never meant to be among the 12. Christ chose him to reach gentiles..." And Scripture says that where? I would say 'if' again.

Perhaps Christ chose him to reach the gentiles, because the other 11 were not doing what Jesus told them to do IN THE FIRST PLACE. They were busy making a nice commune for themselves in Jerusalem, resulting in God having to kill two. How many more was God going to have to kill, until they moved on with the 1st commission confirmed repeatedly in the Gospels and Acts 1: Go ye into all the world...

And so, He allowed persecution to scatter them abroad, and He chose of the the most zealous persecutors to scatter with them.

One thing is perfectly certain: Jesus had no intention of returning imminently, so why did the 11??

"after Israel the nation has fallen when she stoned Stephen." I always thought their nation had fallen when they decided to kill Jesus in order to keep their nation for themselves. (John 11)

So, it wasn't until they stoned Stephen that their nation fell. The crucifixion of Jesus wasn't enough. That was just a warm up. (I really do believe that Christians tend to look at God dying on the cross as some sort of blip in man's history, when it comes to figuring out 'end times prophecy')

"The promised kingdom has been postponed indefinitely after Acts 7."

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God...And when he had said this, he fell asleep...and the Lord Jesus sat back down on the right hand of God and saith, I guess I'm not returning anytime soon now..."

Actually, the nation of Israel 'falling' at that point would have been the catalyst for His immediate return: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first." (2 Thess 2)

You know pet theories of prophecy, when they have no scripture stating it plainly, with Scripture contradicting, accompanied with 'ifs' and nonsensical reasonings.

 

[GenemZ]

If you are expecting the kingdom to begin anytime soon, and if the Holy Spirit himself confirmed that that is still the correct timetable, you need to have 12 apostles because there are 12 tribes of Israel.

So Peter is correct in choosing Matthias in Acts 1.

Paul was never meant to be among the 12. Christ chose him to reach gentiles, after Israel the nation has fallen when she stoned Stephen.

The promised kingdom has been postponed indefinitely after Acts 7.

They were so stunned by all that was going on, and you are treating them like they had been in the ministry (which had not started yet) for fifty years.

They were given just one command.

This was the command.

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this
command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father
promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized
with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:4-5​

Peter was getting a bit stir crazy perhaps? He had not yet received the Baptism of the Spirit and you are treating him as if he were being led of the Spirit when he got antsy and had to find a human solution to the replace the missing Judas.

And, another point you keep harping on which is false. Paul was not the only apostle to be sent to Gentiles. Read some history of their lives. The last time I checked India was a Gentile nation. Other nations too were where we found some apostles evangelizing. They were to go into "all the world."

Paul was sent by God to the Gentiles to protect them from the legalism which was rampant among the Jews. Paul having been a pharisee was qualified to take such a stand and protect them with authority. Peter could never have protected the Gentiles from such evil tyranny. Peter was to stay with the Jews and do his best, while he learned much from Paul as how he should live in Christ amongst the Jews.

 

[Thuycidides]

This picture may help you understand the difference between their view, to understand why Peter and the other apostles did what they did in Early Acts, and our view, now that we have the benefit of being born after Paul's revelation of the mystery.

View attachment 300977

So, the 11 apostles did what they did based on an errant view of things to come, but did what they did rightly...

As well as setting aside Jesus' 1st Commission to them to go ye into all the world...

We are talking about people who stood around waiting for Him to return from the cloud in heaven immediately, and had to be pushed on to Jerusalem by angels sent from God, after Jesus had just commanded them to return to Jerusalem, receive power, and move on to the ends of the earth.

And yet, it is abominable to suppose they made an error of ministry, before receiving the Holy Ghost with power?

I see now why this rock of refusal is so hard to move one inch. Because somehow this 'inerrancy' of Peter ties in with a pet theory of end times prophecy.

Now that pet rock will never budge.

 

[Thuycidides]

They were so stunned by all that was going on, and you are treating them like they had been in the ministry (which had not started yet) for fifty years.

They were given just one command.

This was the command.

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this
command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father
promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John baptized
with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:4-5​

Peter was getting a bit stir crazy perhaps? He had not yet received the Baptism of the Spirit and you are treating him as if he were being led of the Spirit when he got antsy and had to find a human solution to the replace the missing Judas.

And, another point you keep harping on which is false. Paul was not the only apostle to be sent to Gentiles. Read some history of their lives. The last time I checked India was a Gentile nation. Other nations too were where we found some apostles evangelizing. They were to go into "all the world."

Paul was sent by God to the Gentiles to protect them from the legalism which was rampant among the Jews. Paul having been a pharisee was qualified to take such a stand and protect them with authority. Peter could never have protected the Gentiles from such evil tyranny. Peter was to stay with the Jews and do his best, while he learned much from Paul as how he should live in Christ amongst the Jews.

Another interesting one: Paul chosen by Jesus to protect Gentiles from spreading Judaism in His name...And they were just beginning to finally spread out, due to the persecution in Jerusalem Jesus allowed for that very purpose.

 

[Thuycidides]

You forgot to stick your tongue out? How was that said?

I prefer to move on when another descends into scriptureless rationalizations and rejection of common sense reading.

And I don't agree to any of it. I just move on.

 

[Thuycidides]

You would think 40 days would have been plenty of time for Jesus to appoint another apostle unless of course He was waiting for Paul.

The problem is the Holy Spirit didn't confirm anything until after Matthias had been chosen.

You also seem to be suggesting that the 12 apostles represent Israel instead of the Church.

The other problem I have with your assertion is that when they asked Jesus about restoring the Kingdom, they were specifically told that dates and times were not there concern. So really your argument flies in the face of Christ's command because you are suggesting Peter was right in doing what he did due to the times ahead.

Acts 1:6&7
Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

It is curious that there is no room for men of like error, with men who repeatedly claim they are only men of like passions.