WHAT IS GOD'S GRACE FOR?

[Guojing]

Well, he may have thought he was writing to the believing natural Jews scattered abroad, but God wasn't.

God was writing to the believing inward Jews scattered abroad.

I was referring to what he told Paul to do in Acts 21:18-25, not what he wrote in James 1:1.

 

[Thuycidides]

Have you noticed that, in Romans to Philemon, Paul never call us in the Body of Christ as "sheep" even once?

But I do understand the appeal of Psalms 23, it has been preached so many times in churches and funerals, that even non Christians are aware of the contents.

In the effort to separate the body of Christ by fleshly heritage, I have yet to hear the idea of Jesus believers not being the sheep of the great Shepherd:

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock." Acts 20 to the Ephesian believers.

Ok, not sheep. But flock of what? Geese?

"Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind."

Peter still dissimulating with the carnal Jews? (I guess it's good there wasn't only one apostle of the faith)

But then Peter does call us sheep:

"For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls." (1 Peter 2)

So, I am a little sheepie no longer gone astray afterall! That was close.

But wait, Paul does call us sheep in Romans 8: "As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."

And then all the way over in Hebrews 13: "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant..."

So, what are you? Some sort of carnal Jew in Jesus' garb? Why Can't I be a little sheepie of Jesus??

 

[Thuycidides]

I was referring to what he told Paul to do in Acts 21:18-25, not what he wrote in James 1:1.

Oh, you mean where James said to appease the believing Jews clinging to Moses, by conducting himself has a Jew after the law, in order to denounce the false accusation that Paul was forbidding Jewish believers to be circumcised?

You really have no clue what was going on, do you?

I suppose you think Paul had Timothy circumcised in order to the keep the law of Moses, because the Law of Moses needed to be kept in Christ...

 

[Guojing]

Oh, you mean where James said to appease the believing Jews clinging to Moses, by conducting himself has a Jew after the law, in order to denounce the false accusation that Paul was forbidding Jewish believers to be circumcised?

You really have no clue what was going on, do you?

I suppose you think Paul had Timothy circumcised in order to the keep the law of Moses, because the Law of Moses needed to be kept in Christ...

Oh so you are saying you believe James also believe that he is dead to the Law of Moses and physical circumcision, but he suggested to Paul to do a hypocritical action regarding the Law, just to appease those zealous Jews?

 

[Thuycidides]

I have distinguished between Israel of God and fallen Israel here, but notice, they are still separated from the Body of Christ.

Which part do you disagree with?

"Which part do you disagree with?"

Ok, we'll start with the first part:

1. "True Israel/Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) refers to the little flock out of the nation Israel that believe, those that are pastored by James the brother of Jesus, at the end of Acts."

True Israel of God are all those made citizens to the commonwealth of Israel by faith in Jesus, whether grafted in for the first time, or grafted in again after unbelief.

James was pastoring all believers in Christ, as was the epistle he wrote. He wasn't a respecter of persons after the flesh, as yourself.

I'm not sure how you get natural-Jews-only little flock from Galatians 6, where Paul is telling the Galatians not to heed the troublers that call for circumcision of the flesh. Unless, they be the little flock of the lamb with two horns, which is probably true.

2. "They continue to stay zealous to the Law of Moses, even after they believed in Christ as their Messiah (Acts 21:18-25, James 2:24-26, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7)."

Yes they did. Not because the Lord Jesus required it, but because they liked it that way. The problem was when they became Judaizers troubling the rest of the believers, demanding that they do the same, which is when James helped slap them down, and told them to keep to their own self-righteousness in Moses of old and leave other believers alone.

And once again, not sure where James 2 and 1 John comes into this. They were writing to all believers in Christ, including me.

3. "The rest of the nation Israel has fallen in disbelief (Acts 7:51, Romans 11:1-5)"

The rest of the Jews that remained Jews outwardly only, except they repent and abide not in unbelief, then they can be graffed in again with the rest of us inward Jews by the Spirit and not by the flesh.

4. "As a result of the fall of the nation of Israel, salvation without the Law of Moses (Romans 4:5), is now open to everyone, Jew and gentiles, thru Paul's gospel of grace (Romans 11:11)."

There is no salvation with the law of Moses. There may be believers in Jesus who desire to keep the law of Moses of old, but that has nothing to do with the salvation of Jesus. The gospel of the cross is the gospel of grace is the everlasting gospel of the cross. There is none other, whether by man nor angel nor Judaizer.

5. "All Jews and gentiles who thus believe in Paul's gospel, found in 1 Cor 15:1-4, are now in the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor gentile. You are correct there."

And so are you. Although all believers of Jesus found in Acts thru Revelation would be more accurate, and much more multiplied.

6. "But the Body of Christ is not the same as the little flock. They are 2 separate groups of believers."

True. There are two separate groups of believers: those who believe Jesus and are washed in the blood of the Lamb, and those who believe a lie and are damned. (2 Thess 2)

More and more I believe the obvious heresy of Judaism is the strong delusion sent by God, whereby many fall away from the faith of Jesus:

"I have distinguished between Israel of God and fallen Israel here, but notice, they are still separated from the Body of Christ."

"These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit." (Jude)

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." (Romans 16)

So, you be separate and special all you want. I'll be a little sheepie of Jesus.

 

[Guojing]

"Which part do you disagree with?"

Ok, we'll start with the first part:

1. "True Israel/Israel of God (Galatians 6:16) refers to the little flock out of the nation Israel that believe, those that are pastored by James the brother of Jesus, at the end of Acts."

James was pastoring all believers in Christ, as was the epistle he wrote. He wasn't a respecter of persons after the flesh, as yourself.

Out of curiosity, when you read Acts 21:18-25, you could not tell that James distinguished between Jewish believers and gentile believers?

As usual, if you are a KJV reader, it brings out the contrast most clearly, compared to all the modern versions.

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

When you read and understand this passage literally, you mean you do not read this as James saying

1. All the Jews who believe in Jesus are to keep the law of Moses, and keep it zealously.
2. Gentiles who believe are to do NO SUCH THING, beyond those 4 requirements to keep the peace with the Jewish believers.

That contrast is not clear enough?

 

[Thuycidides]

Oh so you are saying you believe James also believe that he is dead to the Law of Moses and physical circumcision, but he suggested to Paul to do a hypocritical action regarding the Law, just to appease those zealous Jews?

If you want to call behaving in a culturally acceptable fashion for the sake of peace, and being a Jew to the Jews, hypocritical. Go ahead. I don't. No more than suggesting to Timothy that he go ahead and get circumcised to take a stumbling block out of the zealous Jews' pathway to Christ.

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews..." (1 Cor 9)

You're wanna be Judaism dressed as faith of Christ has blinded your mind to the liberty and ministry of Christ:

"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Cor 3)

 

[Guojing]

If you want to call behaving in a culturally acceptable fashion for the sake of peace, and being a Jew to the Jews, hypocritical. Go ahead. I don't. No more than suggesting to Timothy that he go ahead and get circumcised to take a stumbling block out of the zealous Jews' pathway to Christ.

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews..." (1 Cor 9)

You're wanna be Judaism dressed as faith of Christ has blinded your mind to the liberty and ministry of Christ:

"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Cor 3)

As I said to genez, focus on James not Paul.

Why did James asked Paul to follow the Law?

As stated in Acts 21:18-25, he only excused gentile believers from following the Law (Acts 15:19), but to behave in a "culturally acceptable fashion for the sake of peace" by following his 4 requirements.

But that option was not available for Jewish believers. They had to follow the Law before the cross, they had to follow the Law after the cross.

 

[Thuycidides]

Out of curiosity, when you read Acts 21:18-25, you could not tell that James distinguished between Jewish believers and gentile believers?

As usual, if you are a KJV reader, it brings out the contrast most clearly, compared to all the modern versions.

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

When you read and understand this passage literally, you mean you do not read this as James saying

1. All the Jews who believe in Jesus are to keep the law of Moses, and keep it zealously.
2. Gentiles who believe are to do NO SUCH THING, beyond those 4 requirements to keep the peace with the Jewish believers.

That contrast is not clear enough?

"Out of curiosity, when you read Acts 21:18-25, you could not tell that James distinguished between Jewish believers and gentile believers?"

Yes he was, but not in validation of their dissimulation, nor of yours, but rather in acknowledgment of the will of men that believed; howbeit erringly.

The time would come when Jude would declare all such hardened Mosaic law worshippers to be altogether separated from the believers of Christ and without the Spirit. (Jude 19)

"All the Jews who believe in Jesus are to keep the law of Moses, and keep it zealously."

How is it you cannot read the simple difference between acknowledging the situation as it stood vs what it ought to be? James was not agreeing with them and commanding them to remain doing so. The apostles were formally making the first break from them that insisted on it being so, and it took the apostleship of Paul by Jesus' direct command to finally bring it about.

"Gentiles who believe are to do NO SUCH THING, beyond those 4 requirements to keep the peace with the Jewish believers."

Paul behaved as a Jew at that time in order to keep the peace with the zealous Jews, that were seeking their own righteousness rather than the righteousness of God, which is by faith (Rom 10:3). By declaring circumcision of the flesh to be unnecessary for faith in the Messiah sent to the Jews first, the apostles were breaking from such zealous zealots.

It is still one law after one manner (Number 15:16), whether Jew or Gentile and stranger. If unnecessary for one, then unnecessary for all. The zealously erring natural Jews were trying to enforce this very rule of faith in one law upon the Gentiles that believed, and Scripture here has formally declared that no such law of Moses exists for believers in Christ.

The Judaizers were bringing things in the body of Christ to a head pertaining the keeping of the law of Moses as the one law and manner for all, and the Head Jesus declared that His one law and manner was not Moses', but His.

As man was not made for the Sabbath, neither was God and His covenant made for Moses!

My God man, do you not see you are as they were in demanding all natural Jews be circumcised and keep the law of Moses, which is a yoke no man could bear and troubles all believers in Christ?? The Judaizers were attempting to condemn all new believers to a life of works in an old law, and you are condemning all naturally born Jews to be Judaizers in order to believe Jesus unto salvation.

How is it so hard to understand that he is that is a Jew outwardly only is not a Jew? And he that is a Jew inwardly by circumcision of the heart by the spirit of Christ is a Jew? (Rom 2)

By the time of Jesus' Revelation given to John, the whole issue of Judaizing is finished with God. Like that harlot Jezebel, He gave them space to repent, and they repented not, so that though they continued to call themselves 'Jews' and the 'Israel of God', the Lord Himself called them liars (Rev 2:9,3:9).

As are you and any other modern day Judaizer that continues to desire to separate and divide the body of Christ according to will and blood of man.

 

[Thuycidides]

As I said to genez, focus on James not Paul.

Why did James asked Paul to follow the Law?

As stated in Acts 21:18-25, he only excused gentile believers from following the Law (Acts 15:19), but to behave in a "culturally acceptable fashion for the sake of peace" by following his 4 requirements.

But that option was not available for Jewish believers. They had to follow the Law before the cross, they had to follow the Law after the cross.

They had to follow the law of Moses, as did Jesus, before the cross, and they had to follow the law of Christ, given by Jesus, after the cross.

You go ahead and believe the law of Moses is the law of Christ and the Old Covenant of the blood of bulls is the New Covenant of the blood of the Lamb.

And you are yet in your sins, even as your fathers were that rejected Jesus, the Lord they knew not, in order to cling to a Moses they believed not.

 

[Guojing]

How is it you cannot read the simple difference between acknowledging the situation as it stood vs what it ought to be? James was not agreeing with them and commanding them to remain doing so. The apostles were formally making the first break from them that insisted on it being so, and it took the apostleship of Paul by Jesus' direct command to finally bring it about.

.

When you read what he said, years before Acts 21, in James 2:24-26, how do you conclude that "James was not agreeing with them and commanding them to remain doing so"?

Didn't James stated there that faith without works cannot save anyone?

 

[Thuycidides]

When you read what he said, years before Acts 21, in James 2:24-26, how do you conclude that "James was not agreeing with them and commanding them to remain doing so"?

Didn't James stated there that faith without works cannot save anyone?

Correct. Faith without works is dead by James, and works with faith is foolish by Paul, and works of erring faith according to a false law is unjustified.

The works of the law of Moses are foolish, because Moses of old is not law of Christ.

All Scripture is profitable to do by personal faith, but all Scripture is not law of God to be obeyed by all, which is only that of Christ, not of Moses.

He is not a Jew which is one outwardly by circumcision of the flesh in obedience to the law of Moses, but he is a Jew inwardly by circumcision of the heart in obedience to the law of Christ.

There is no more law of Moses for Jews to keep, because there is no more Jews to keep it. And they who say so are liars, and the law they keep is of the Jews' religion only. (Gal 1)

Moses would rise up in judgment against all such, for he would not keep that law he wrote on tables of stone, but rather would keep the law Jesus writes on tables of the hearts.

 

[Guojing]

Correct. Faith without works is dead by James, and works with faith is foolish by Paul, and works of erring faith according to a false law is unjustified.

The works of the law of Moses are foolish, because Moses of old is not law of Christ.

All Scripture is profitable to do by personal faith, but all Scripture is not law of God to be obeyed by all, which is only that of Christ, not of Moses.

He is not a Jew which is one outwardly by circumcision of the flesh in obedience to the law of Moses, but he is a Jew inwardly by circumcision of the heart in obedience to the law of Christ.

There is no more law of Moses for Jews to keep, because there is no more Jews to keep it. And they who say so are liars, and the law they keep is of the Jews' religion only. (Gal 1)

Moses would rise up in judgment against all such, for he would not keep that law he wrote on tables of stone, but rather would keep the law Jesus writes on tables of the hearts.

So how did you conclude that "James was not agreeing with them and commanding them to remain doing so"?

Are you using Paul's words to form your doctrine on what James was also believing in?

 

[Thuycidides]

As I said to genez, focus on James not Paul.

Why did James asked Paul to follow the Law?

As stated in Acts 21:18-25, he only excused gentile believers from following the Law (Acts 15:19), but to behave in a "culturally acceptable fashion for the sake of peace" by following his 4 requirements.

But that option was not available for Jewish believers. They had to follow the Law before the cross, they had to follow the Law after the cross.

"Why did James asked Paul to follow the Law?"

Why would James ask Paul to follow the law of Moses? Why not just command him to do so, if the law of Moses is that of Christ?

Why would James ask Paul to follow the law of Moses? Was he not? And if not, why not?

Was Paul doing as the zealots falsely accused and forbidding Jews from being circumcised and keep the law of Moses?

No, he was not. He was only preaching the One Gospel of the cross to all, and that keeping the law of Moses for justification with God is not necessary.

 

[Guojing]

"Why did James asked Paul to follow the Law?"

Why would James ask Paul to follow the law of Moses? Why not just command him to do so, if the law of Moses is that of Christ?

Why would James ask Paul to follow the law of Moses? Was he not? And if not, why not?

Was Paul doing as the zealots falsely accused and forbidding Jews from being circumcised and keep the law of Moses?

No, he was not. He was only preaching the One Gospel of the cross to all, and that keeping the law of Moses for justification with God is not necessary.

This sounds like James making a request to Paul

Acts 21
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

 

[Thuycidides]

So how did you conclude that "James was not agreeing with them and commanding them to remain doing so"?

Are you using Paul's words to form your doctrine on what James was also believing in?

"Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law."

Scripture states by the mouth of James the simple fact that such believing Jews were zealous of the law. Scripture does not state that they were doing so, because James taught and commanded them to.

It's called simple reading of the text, without reading into it what you want.

But, because you so want it, you are blind to the simple reading of the text.

Otherwise, show where in Scripture James taught and commended them to do so, whether by record or by epistle. Where did James teach keeping the law of Moses and being circumcised accordingly?

Where did Jesus by His Scriptures ever do so at all after His resurrection? He certainly did as a Jew on earth.

You show where circumcision and Sabbath keeping and law of Moses is commanded to followers of Jesus as the risen Saviour, and I will do so.

Start quoting.

 

[Thuycidides]

This sounds like James making a request to Paul

Acts 21
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Correct. And when was the last time God's prophets or apostles 'requested' we keep His law?

Or more accurately, since all Scripture is from the mouth of God, when did He ever 'request' we keep His Word?

Start quoting.

 

[Guojing]

"Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law."

Scripture states by the mouth of James the simple fact that such believing Jews were zealous of the law. Scripture does not state that they were doing so, because James taught and commanded them to.

It's called simple reading of the text, without reading into it what you want.

But, because you so want it, you are blind to the simple reading of the text.

Otherwise, show where in Scripture James taught and commended them to do so, whether by record or by epistle. Where did James teach keeping the law of Moses and being circumcised accordingly?

Where did Jesus by His Scriptures ever do so at all after His resurrection? He certainly did as a Jew on earth.

You show where circumcision and Sabbath keeping and law of Moses is commanded to followers of Jesus as the risen Saviour, and I will do so.

Start quoting.

Didn't I already quoted what James himself said in James 2:14-26?

James taught that the 12 tribes cannot have faith without works, and expect to be saved.

The book of James was written years before the event in Acts 21.

As for your point about what Jesus said regarding the Law, post resurrection, the last verse of Matthew says

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

which includes Matthew 5:17-20 regarding the Law

 

[GenemZ]

So you believe, just like Peter, James the brother of Jesus was committing various mistakes as well, even as late as Acts 21?

Why do you think Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD if the church is supposed to become "salt of the earth?" Salt was a major preservative in those days.

Look at what Jesus said to believers who were paying attention to Him...

“You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt should become-tasteless, with
what will it be salted? It no longer has strength for anything except, having
been thrown outside, to be trampled-underfoot by men." Mat 5:13

​

The Jewish church in Jerusalem failed miserably to become "salt" for their land. They desired legalism (zealous for the Law) and in doing so neglected walking in grace and truth. The result of their apostasy? After much patience from God, in 70 AD Jerusalem was trampled underfoot by Titus and the Roman army. The Jewish church ceased. The first church was Jerusalem, not Rome.

We are here to become a blessing to our own land. To "become salt" by seeking and desiring sound doctrine as we keep walking in the Spirit. If a land is to be invaded Satan likes to send in his emissaries of false Bible teaching as to eventually force God to remove His national protection/blessings that only manifest when enough believers within that land are walking in sound doctrine.

That is why Bible teaching should go beyond simply having a healthy intellectual curiosity. For our national defense depends upon having enough believers wanting and receiving sound teaching.. They must be willing to prove all things as they continue on their walk in God's grace enabling power. The power that comes from the Spirit making us able to comprehend spiritual truths.

grace and peace .........

 

[GenemZ]

This sounds like James making a request to Paul

Acts 21
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Now... in plain English.

What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we
tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men,
join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have
their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports
about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

​

And, what was the result of Paul becoming weak and conforming to the legalistic Jewish believers?

Paul came within an inch of losing his life in a riot that started in the Temple when Jews there saw him being a part of a ritual prescribed by the Law.

For a short while Paul slipped into the terrible Heb 6:4-6 mind set. Paul repented, and was sent away by Rome in chains.

To say the least, God was not pleased with Paul's willingness to turn a blind eye and deny the very teaching of grace he was becoming a proponent of to the Gentiles.

Yes.. Paul failed at one point in his walk. We all do.