What is free will?

[sdowney717]

Jesus presented four kinds of hearers and explained the final outcome of each. Only the last hearer is saved. He then spoke aother parable warning them "to take heed how you hear."

You are provoking me to anger with your arrogant and smart aleck ways. I was studying the scriptures when you were still feeding on your mother's bosoms. You have been sooo indoctrinated that you actually believe you have the truth. But your "truth" is a perversion of more recent times.

Your right on with this, the only ones saved were those who bore the fruit.
They were those who were abiding in Jesus and bearing much fruit. The ones that don't bear fruit are headed for the fire.

 

[sdowney717]

Much fruit born is produced by those who abide in the vine.
Matt 13

23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

John 15

5 I am the vine; you are the branches.

Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

If you abide in Him, you WILL bear much fruit.
If you do not abide in Him , your not a saved person. This is not losing your salvation. You don't have it at all.

The contrast is always saved and unsaved. Those who abide in Him are saved and bear much fruit. This is because the Father is the vinedresser and HE it is who has prepared good works for the sheep to walk in. The sheep follow Jesus and obey His commands (at least when not wandering away).

So Jesus says in John 15, those who bear much fruit prove to be my disciples
Bear no fruit, your only fit for the fire, thorns and brambles be you.

8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

Difference being abiding versus no abiding. All His people are abiding in HIM.
1 John 3

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The frauds can lay no claim to understanding this and do not know the truth because they do not have the Spirit as an inner witness never having been converted by Him to eternal life.

 

[AndOne]

There is not a word in context of 1 Cor 13 that this refers to a closed canon. Not a word!

There is not a word in the context of Eph 4:11-14 that these 5 ministry gifts of Christ are for an infant, childish church. Not a word!

That's a cessationist imposition on the text, in my hermeneutical understanding.

Oz

I too agree with you on this particular point....

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of course you deny that since you want to take credit for your faith and hate the idea of God giving it as a gift.

Hey, griff, thanks again for the enjoyable opportunity to correct the ERRORS of Calvinists. You've given me quite a bit of joy, for sure.

I've never taken credit for my faith. I give God all the credit for my salvation. Only in the fantasy of your mind do you think so of those who believe in free will.

Second, you haven't proven at all that the act of believing the gospel is a gift that God gives. Man is accountable for believing what God promises. It should be obvious to any rational mind that because man is accountable, God created mankind with the intellectual ability to understand the gospel promise and either believe or reject it.

But only to those dedicated to robotic programming, or string pulling kinds of theology wouldn't understand any of this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I suggest you go back and read the parable again. Jesus says the one who understands is the good soil. I'm sorry you missed that.

Hey again, griff, thanks for another opportunity to correct the ERRORS of Calvinists. And you sure do that a lot.

It requires understanding to produce fruit, which is the subject of the parable, obviously. Well, for most.

This isn't about understanding the gospel. Clearly soils 2-4 ALL sprouted, but I guess you don't understand what that means in the plant world, huh.

So, I'll tell you what it means. It means that plants all grew from the seeds in soils 2-4. Yup. But in soils 2-3, there was no fruit production, because of the reasons noted. Not that there wasn't any plants, but that the plants didn't grow up and produce fruit.

Such a simple and clear parable, yet such confusion on the part of so many.

 

[AndOne]

Hey griff - thanks for correcting the errors of non-Calvinists. Your posts have been informative, scripture-based, and entertaining!

 

[Jack Terrence]

Hey again, griff, thanks for another opportunity to correct the ERRORS of Calvinists. And you sure do that a lot.

It requires understanding to produce fruit, which is the subject of the parable, obviously. Well, for most.

This isn't about understanding the gospel. Clearly soils 2-4 ALL sprouted, but I guess you don't understand what that means in the plant world, huh.

So, I'll tell you what it means. It means that plants all grew from the seeds in soils 2-4. Yup. But in soils 2-3, there was no fruit production, because of the reasons noted. Not that there wasn't any plants, but that the plants didn't grow up and produce fruit.

Such a simple and clear parable, yet such confusion on the part of so many.

You are SAVED by faith. And you are KEPT for salvation by faith.

KEPT by the power of God THROUGH FAITH unto the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:5

This destroys your "saving faith" versus "day by day faith" concoction. Please get yourself in a Calvinist church!

 

[FreeGrace2]

According to our Lord's explanation the seed that fell by the wayside represented those who were prevented from being saved.

Yes, and they were prevented by the devil, who stole the seed (gospel) away from them.

The seed that fell on the rock represents those who fall away from the faith.

Yes, their faith was "for a while", but in Luke 8:13, Jesus Himself SAID they believed in the present tense. So deal with that bit of FACT.

The seed that fell among thorns represents those who are choked.

Sure. Many believers choke. All the time. Your point?

So what that they ALL sprouted? The first CLEARLY was NOT saved.

Well, I figured that the Calvinists wouldn't understand that at all. Here is the point of sprouting. There WERE plants in soils 2-4. But no production in soils 2-3, due to reasons given. This really isn't that hard to understand. Esp since Jesus GAVE the meaning to His disciples.

"Those that fell by the wayside are the ones who hear, then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."

Yep. No plants sprouted. No salvation.

Jesus presented four kinds of hearers and explained the final outcome of each. Only the last hearer is saved.

Maybe you didn't know this, but Jesus Himself actually SAID the second soil believed, and in the previous verse indicated that believing results in salvation. So I'll let you do the math.

You are provoking me to anger with your arrogant and smart aleck ways.

In fact, you yourself are the cause of all your angst. This is a debate forum. If you can't stand how debates go, then you shouldn't be here. None of this is personal for me. I can't make anyone believe anything. Only the Holy Spirit convicts with truth. But I can present the truth, and from your and others comments about all that emotions running over, it's clear that y'all are taking this all very personally. And why? Because of your extremely thin skinned backsides. If your skin isn't thick enough for debate, you need another hobby.

I was studying the scriptures when you were still feeding on your mother's bosoms.

First, you can leave my mother's bosom (it's singular, bub) out of this. And, second, that would mean that you are probably at least over 80 years old, if you began when you were in your 20's, which I doubt you did. Maybe you're over 100.

You have been sooo indoctrinated that you actually believe you have the truth. But your "truth" is a perversion of more recent times.

Pitiful non defense of your position. Is that all you got?

It's really amazing to me that my view is taken directly from what Scripture SAYS, while Calvinism cannot provide any Scripture that SAYS:
#1 Christ died only for the elect, or
#2 Christ didn't die for everyone, or
#3 God chooses who will believe, the foundation for your view of election, or
#4 why God chooses who He did for salvation.

Yet, I can provide clear Scripture that actually SAYS what I believe. And you have the gall to claim that I've been "indoctrinated". LOL

#1 and 2 heb 2:9 SAYS Jesus tased death for all and translated by the majority of English translations as "everyone"
#3 God chooses to save those who believe, 1 Cor 1:21
#4 God chooses to save believes, 1 Cor 1:21 and 2 Thess 2:13

I'd say all those 80+ years of study didn't pan out for you very well. Maybe it would help if you read Scripture without those Calvinist prisms on.

I'll give you an example of the bias that is in Calvinism. In another thread of mine, I challenged the Calvinists to provide any verse that SAYS that Christ died for ONLY the elect. None could, and finally one admitted that the doctrine of limited atonement was by "inference".

Another Calvinist noted that when one reads tasted death for all, one naturally asks the question, "death for all of what group? That question, in and of itself, proves the bias that Calvinists carry to the Scriptures.

There is NO reason at all to even ask such a question, UNLESS one comes to the verse with the BIAS that Christ DIDN'T die for everyone, but just one group. Only then does that question make sense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You know from experience?

No, I know from reading all the "whine partiers" that post to me from your camp.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Same thing.

Well, you just don't understand that children can be rebellious. So, no, it's not the "same thing" as you opine.

That's why Heb 12:5-11 was written. For the rebellious ones.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Solomon was indeed saved. But you conveniently omitted the fact that God promised to chasten him to keep him in the covenant.

“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.

He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.

And my mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 2 Samuel 7

No, you conveniently ignored 1 Kings 11:1-11. At the end of his life his many wives "turned him from the Lord to their idols". And God took the kingdom away from his son, because of his actions.

You should read all of my posts before you fire off your mis-fires.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Your right on with this, the only ones saved were those who bore the fruit.
They were those who were abiding in Jesus and bearing much fruit. The ones that don't bear fruit are headed for the fire.

What I find very interesting is how Calvinism seems unable to understand what spiritual growth is all about.

Do y'all think that when one expresses saving faith, they are immediately a mature believer, producing fruit and all?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hey griff - thanks for correcting the errors of non-Calvinists. Your posts have been informative, scripture-based, and entertaining!

Well, yes, quite "entertaining". But "Scripture-based"???? He rarely quotes anything.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are SAVED by faith. And you are KEPT for salvation by faith.

Wow, are you ever WRONG! We are kept by God. Not by faith. Our faith has no power at all. All the power is in God alone.

KEPT by the power of God THROUGH FAITH unto the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:5

So, you hang an entire doctrine on just one verse, huh.

Here it is in the NASB:
who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

The key is obviously being protected by the power of God.

And the word for "faith" here is a genetive singular. That means a noun that modifies another noun. And nouns don't do anything. So this verse isn't about faith doing anything at all.

As I said, it's all about God's power that keeps His children saved. If He only keeps saved those who are obedient, why don't you see the obvious tie to works or human effort "cooperating" with God in your salvation?

 

[guuila]

Hey, griff, thanks again for the enjoyable opportunity to correct the ERRORS of Calvinists. You've given me quite a bit of joy, for sure.

I've never taken credit for my faith. I give God all the credit for my salvation. Only in the fantasy of your mind do you think so of those who believe in free will.

Second, you haven't proven at all that the act of believing the gospel is a gift that God gives. Man is accountable for believing what God promises. It should be obvious to any rational mind that because man is accountable, God created mankind with the intellectual ability to understand the gospel promise and either believe or reject it.

But only to those dedicated to robotic programming, or string pulling kinds of theology wouldn't understand any of this.

Until you can explain 1 Cor. 1:22-24, you have no argument.

 

[ChrisBot]

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[Hammster]

Well, you just don't understand that children can be rebellious. So, no, it's not the "same thing" as you opine.

That's why Heb 12:5-11 was written. For the rebellious ones.

The evidence that they are children is that they have borne fruit.

 

[ChrisBot]

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