What is free will?

[sdowney717]

The only ones who are saved are those who produce fruit that remains, good fruit. Those who are saved abide in Him, Jesus and they are appointed to bear fruit that remains.
John 15, is all about abiding and fruit bearing for all times into the future, including the gentiles, not just the jews of the past like some here say.

This agrees with Matt 3 about bearing good fruit that befits repentance. His sheep bear good fruit. Make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and it'd fruit bad, a tree is known by its fruit.

His sheep are the wheat gathered into His barn, the rest of humanity who are not His sheep are the chafe to be burned in the fire.

The parable of the sower was EXPLAINED to the disciples, so the meaning is made clear to the sheep not obscured like some posters claim.

The only ones that bore fruit were the ones who were profitable servants, the rest will be cast into the outer darkness where they will weep and gnash their teeth in pain. We are expected to bear fruit which some posters here reject thereby nullifying the word of God.

John 15

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Some have said this fruit bearing does not matter!, But Jesus says it does.

15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

 

[FreeGrace2]

2 Tim. 2:12 isn't talking about eternal rewards either. Nowhere in the context. Here it is:

"For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. It is a trustworthy statement:

For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

The text says if we died with him, we shall live with him.
If we endure, we shall also reign with him.
If we deny him, he will deny us.
If we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself. God would be denying himself if he didn't deny us when we deny him.

Absolutely nothing about eternal rewards. The whole context is regarding salvation.

Well, you may not think that "living with Him" and "reigning with Him" are different, but they are. Quite obviously. But you come to Scripture with a preconceived bias.

Look up at verse 10:

For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Nothing at all about eternal rewards.

Sure, not in v.10, but in v.12.

Neither place ever mentions eternal rewards anywhere.

And the Bible never "mentions" the "Trinity", but you understand it. Your point is not made. As far as "anywhere" goes, consider Jesus' own words in Rev 22:12 - Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

This cannot refer to salvation, because salvation is NOT earned, thus qualifying for a reward, which is something earned and deserved.

Bottom line: Matt. 10:33 and 2 Tim. 2:12 neither one are talking about eternal rewards.

Your assertion is noted, and rejected. The teaching on reward is all over the NT. Do the word search and find out about it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let me go ahead and refute your meaningless assertions, again.

“Hear then the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.” (Matthew 13:18-23 ESV)

So there are four scenarios:

1. Path
2. Rocky ground
3. Thorns
4. Good soil

Have you ever noticed #4 is the only one who understands the word?

Actually, it is clear that you never noticed that the parable is about producing fruit (good deeds). And only the first soil represented an unbeliever, in which the seed (gospel) was taken by birds, representing the devil, who "snatches the Word from them, LEST they believe and be saved". I guess that kinda just slipped by you, huh.

He indeed bears fruit because of it. The others didn't understand the word, thus they "fell away".

Yep, you don't know what you're talking about. There is nothing about "not understanding the Word". The second soil actually sprouted, indicating regeneration, as did the 3rd soil. Both represent believers, but who fail to produce fruit for the reasons noted.

So either they lost their salvation, or they were never saved to begin with.

In fact, neither one. They were saved, and never lost their salvation. They never produced fruit, which was Jesus' point. But since both the 2nd and 3rd soils sprouted up along with weeds, proves LIFE in those soils.

Your view isn't even close to what was written.

You're forcing this parable through your "God never turns his back on a person who quits believing LOLZ" grid, even though the text doesn't support it. Nor does Jesus support it, as was shown by Walter. Jesus denies those who deny him.

Sure. Go join his tent in his camp all you want. LOL

Interesting. So you believe a person can be saved without understanding the word?

What kind of irrelant comment is this? I said the parable was about producing fruit, not getting saved. And there is nothing in the parable about not understanding the Word, except the first soil, who had their seed taken by birds, LEST THEY BELIEVE AND BE SAVED"

Please get a grasp of this passage for orientation to reality:
Luke 8:12-13
12“Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

In v.12 Jesus made the point that anyone who believed would be saved. In v.13, He noted that the 2nd soil BELIEVED. They were therefor saved.

Your problem is not with me, but with God's Word and Jesus Himself.

And? This does nothing to further your argument. Go ahead and type up one of your famous, nonsense rebuttals. We'll wait.

OK, sorry. I thought you would understand my words. But you're not about to jettison your own agenda here, that being to protect your theology, even though you can't find any verses that actually SAY what your theology claims.

I don't find that rational.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Producing fruit is evidence of salvation.

No, hammster. Producing fruit is evidence of a faithful believer.

Just look at Solomon and 1 Kings 11 -
1Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, 2from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the sons of Israel, “You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods.” Solomon held fast to these in love. 3He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. 4For WHEN Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites. 6Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done. 7Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon. 8Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
9Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what the LORD had commanded. 11So the LORD said to Solomon, “Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant. 12“Nevertheless I will not do it in your days for the sake of your father David, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13“However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen.”

So, go ahead and tell me that Solomon wasn't saved. Any time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You should read the parable again. Only the the seed which fell on "good ground" took root.

You should read the parable again. The seeds in soils 2,3 and 4 ALL sprouted, signifying regeneration, or LIFE.

But you can argue anything you want to.

 

[guuila]

Well, you may not think that "living with Him" and "reigning with Him" are different, but they are. Quite obviously. But you come to Scripture with a preconceived bias.

So we should just take your word for it? LOL nah.

Sure, not in v.10, but in v.12.

And the Bible never "mentions" the "Trinity", but you understand it. Your point is not made. As far as "anywhere" goes, consider Jesus' own words in Rev 22:12 - Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

This is a lame example. The Bible never mentions the word Trinity, but the concepts are clearly taught. There is nothing in Matt. 10:33 that would make a person clearly conclude eternal rewards are being spoken of. Try again, boss.

This cannot refer to salvation, because salvation is NOT earned, thus qualifying for a reward, which is something earned and deserved.

The act of not denying Jesus isn't a work since it's a product of grace. Of course you deny that since you want to take credit for your faith and hate the idea of God giving it as a gift.

Your assertion is noted, and rejected. The teaching on reward is all over the NT. Do the word search and find out about it.

Your eisegesis is noted, and rejected. Good on ya for giving it a go. You tried. You really did. Bless your heart.

 

[guuila]

Actually, it is clear that you never noticed that the parable is about producing fruit (good deeds). And only the first soil represented an unbeliever, in which the seed (gospel) was taken by birds, representing the devil, who "snatches the Word from them, LEST they believe and be saved". I guess that kinda just slipped by you, huh.

Yep, you don't know what you're talking about. There is nothing about "not understanding the Word". The second soil actually sprouted, indicating regeneration, as did the 3rd soil. Both represent believers, but who fail to produce fruit for the reasons noted.

In fact, neither one. They were saved, and never lost their salvation. They never produced fruit, which was Jesus' point. But since both the 2nd and 3rd soils sprouted up along with weeds, proves LIFE in those soils.

Your view isn't even close to what was written.

Sure. Go join his tent in his camp all you want. LOL

What kind of irrelant comment is this? I said the parable was about producing fruit, not getting saved. And there is nothing in the parable about not understanding the Word, except the first soil, who had their seed taken by birds, LEST THEY BELIEVE AND BE SAVED"

Please get a grasp of this passage for orientation to reality:
Luke 8:12-13
12“Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. 13“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

In v.12 Jesus made the point that anyone who believed would be saved. In v.13, He noted that the 2nd soil BELIEVED. They were therefor saved.

Your problem is not with me, but with God's Word and Jesus Himself.

OK, sorry. I thought you would understand my words. But you're not about to jettison your own agenda here, that being to protect your theology, even though you can't find any verses that actually SAY what your theology claims.

I don't find that rational.

I suggest you go back and read the parable again. Jesus says the one who understands is the good soil. I'm sorry you missed that.

 

[Jack Terrence]

You should read the parable again. The seeds in soils 2,3 and 4 ALL sprouted, signifying regeneration, or LIFE.

But you can argue anything you want to.

According to our Lord's explanation the seed that fell by the wayside represented those who were prevented from being saved. The seed that fell on the rock represents those who fall away from the faith. The seed that fell among thorns represents those who are choked.

So what that they ALL sprouted? The first CLEARLY was NOT saved.

"Those that fell by the wayside are the ones who hear, then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved."

Jesus presented four kinds of hearers and explained the final outcome of each. Only the last hearer is saved. He then spoke aother parable warning them "to take heed how you hear."

You are provoking me to anger with your arrogant and smart aleck ways. I was studying the scriptures when you were still feeding on your mother's bosoms. You have been sooo indoctrinated that you actually believe you have the truth. But your "truth" is a perversion of more recent times.

 

[guuila]

No, hammster. Producing fruit is evidence of a faithful believer.

Just look at Solomon and 1 Kings 11 -
1Now King Solomon loved many foreign women along with the daughter of Pharaoh: Moabite, Ammonite, Edomite, Sidonian, and Hittite women, 2from the nations concerning which the LORD had said to the sons of Israel, “You shall not associate with them, nor shall they associate with you, for they will surely turn your heart away after their gods.” Solomon held fast to these in love. 3He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart away. 4For WHEN Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites. 6Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done. 7Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon. 8Thus also he did for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and sacrificed to their gods.
9Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what the LORD had commanded. 11So the LORD said to Solomon, “Because you have done this, and you have not kept My covenant and My statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant. 12“Nevertheless I will not do it in your days for the sake of your father David, but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13“However, I will not tear away all the kingdom, but I will give one tribe to your son for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem which I have chosen.”

So, go ahead and tell me that Solomon wasn't saved. Any time.

Yep. Believers still sin. Nobody ever said otherwise.

 

[guuila]

Yeah, kinda hurts when ya lose, huh.

You know from experience?

 

[OzSpen]

How interesting. Because you have done that to me, as well as the rest of the "gang" (hammster, griff, etc). I'll remember that.

That's why crimsonleaf's statement, 'People who answer a question with another question usually do so because they can't come up with an answer. Your attempted diversion is noted', is a straw man fallacy.

Oz

 

[Hammster]

No, hammster. Producing fruit is evidence of a faithful believer.

Same thing.

 

[guuila]

I was studying the scriptures when you were still feeding on your mother's bosoms.

It's been a while since I LOL'd this hard.

 

[Jack Terrence]

So, go ahead and tell me that Solomon wasn't saved. Any time.

Solomon was indeed saved. But you conveniently omitted the fact that God promised to chasten him to keep him in the covenant.

“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.

He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men.

And my mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 2 Samuel 7

 

[Hammster]

I love that Calvinism gives non-Calvinists something to rally around, even though their views are so different.

Thankfully we at least have Walter who will challenge other non-Calvinists.

 

[guuila]

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Ezekiel 36:27 ESV)

I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. (Jeremiah 32:40 ESV)

FreeGrace2: Nahhhhhh a person can be a Christian and end up hating Jesus while worshiping pagan idols and God will still save them LOLZ

 

[Skala]

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (Ezekiel 36:27 ESV)

I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. (Jeremiah 32:40 ESV)

FreeGrace2: Nahhhhhh a person can be a Christian and end up hating Jesus while worshiping pagan idols and God will still save them LOLZ

Freegrace2ism vs covenant theology = Freegrace2ism loses.

 

[guuila]

I love that Calvinism gives non-Calvinists something to rally around, even though their views are so different.

Some folks just freak out when you start preaching sovereign grace. Their supposed autonomy is threatened.

Thankfully we at least have Walter who will challenge other non-Calvinists.

As much as I detest Arminianism, at least it's more consistent.

 

[guuila]

That's why crimsonleaf's statement, 'People who answer a question with another question usually do so because they can't come up with an answer. Your attempted diversion is noted', is a straw man fallacy.

Oz

Thanks for informing us. Now we've allegedly seen a straw man, along with the colossal red herring you committed earlier about spiritual gifts.

 

[Skala]

Thanks for informing us. Now we've allegedly seen a straw man, along with the colossal red herring you committed earlier about spiritual gifts.

Nice! thanks to Oz, we now have seen two great examples of logical fallacies!

Thanks Oz!