1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Private Member only forums for more serious discussions that you may wish to not have guests or search engines access to.
    • Your very own blog. Write about anything you like on your own individual blog.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. We are holding our 2022 Angel Ministry Drive now. Please consider signing up, or if you have any questions about being an Angel, use our staff application form. The world needs more prayer now, and it is a great way to help other members of the forums. :) To Apply...click here

What is death?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by from scratch, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. zeke37

    zeke37 IMO...

    +191
    Non-Denom
    Married
    CA-Conservatives
    do you dispute all the sriptures that i posted? just wondering.


    their flesh bodies are dust.
    but they exist in heaven.

    24Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
    25Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
    26Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
    27And last of all the woman died also.
    28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
    29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
    30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
    32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
    33And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.


    23In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
    24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
    25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
    26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
    27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
     
  2. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand Supporter

    +267
    Non-Denom
    Single
    i just don't see how you read that they're in heaven from those verses.
     
  3. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    Are we talking about death or the dead?
     
  4. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    Your point is... I didn't read anywhere that the disciples were in a trance or some altered state at the transfigeration. And I did give a definition of vision as used in the narrative. Will you please do the same for your verses. The mention of trance puts Peter in a different state of being than at the transfiguration. I wagewr this is the same for your other quote as well.
     
  5. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    So where was his body that wasa in dispute? Was it claimed to come and take possession of? Is this a legal war in heaven about the body which may or may not be there? I contend that is where it was and is.
     
  6. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    Please provide discussion. Thanks.
     
  7. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    If I read this correctly you seem to claim that human personalities are indeed in heaven. Does any of you verses claim that the wicked are there as well. I seem to remember you saying that all souls went back to God. God resides in heaven. Yes I understand the omnipresence attribute of God. NTL He is still described as sitting on a throne which is somewhere and I say that would be heaven according to the Scripture.
     
  8. Sieben

    Sieben Guest

    +0
    I have to agree with JohnRabbit with that, those verses don't say what you are asserting
     
  9. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    So you deride me for not pasting the entire definition. I posted what I thought applied. I don't deny that what they saw was indeed a supernatural event. I do not agree that they were in an altered stated making this like a dream. They observed the phyical body of Jesus (Who the were with) take on a different effect and talk to people that came from some where else. This sort of happening is similar to Jacob westling with the angel or Abraham feeding and talking to angels. Very real events as they are related to us. If this was a vision in the sense you claim there would have been 2 figures of Jesus instead of an altered state (transifigured) of Jesus. There is no indication of the disciples being in some other state of being than normal.
    I see nothing in the narrative indicating sleep in neither narrative (Mat or MK). Would you kindly point this out?
    I don't understand the phrase heavy with sleep. But please read the verse. It clearly says they saw the 2 men with Jesus in the same verse while specifically awake. Here is the verse - 32But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him.

    There is no evidence that Jesus woke them up or that they were actually asleep.
     
  10. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    And to what aspect do you refer to? Do you refer to the body or soul? It has been shown that these personalities are active somewhere in some form. Thus they have to be both in exixtence and alive.
     
  11. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    32But Peter and they that were with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake, they saw his glory, and the two men that stood with him. LK 9

    Do vision occur when awake or an unaltered state?
     
  12. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    Please instruct us. You brought up the importance of 3 days and nights, which BTW aren't three 24 hour periods of time.
     
  13. JohnRabbit

    JohnRabbit just trying to understand Supporter

    +267
    Non-Denom
    Single
    however they occur, we know by reading daniel where they occur:

    Daniel 2:28(NKJV)
    28But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head upon your bed, were these:
     
  14. Mikecpking

    Mikecpking Senior Member

    +52
    Christian
    Married
    UK-Liberal-Democrats
    Hi Scratch,
    It has also been shown that the idea of an immortal soul is based on Greek philosophy and not on the bible. They are still in the grave (John 5:28-29)
     
  15. Mikecpking

    Mikecpking Senior Member

    +52
    Christian
    Married
    UK-Liberal-Democrats
    Visions can occur when one is awake, similar to Jacob's vision of a stairway to heaven.
     
  16. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    So all 3 Gospels refer to them being in a full conscience wake state. I then don't quite grasp the sense in which Luke says vivion as in a dream or state of sleep. Jesus was transfigured before their eyes. Do you have some other clue as to what Luke meant? The disciples weren' asleep.
     
  17. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    Ah so the Bible is wrong and not a basis of fact. :cool: I know there was no reason to believe it.;) The Bible is only based on Greek philosophy.
     
  18. Mikecpking

    Mikecpking Senior Member

    +52
    Christian
    Married
    UK-Liberal-Democrats
    Hi Scratch,
    I don't understand your remark. The bible does not teach an immortal soul just as the Jewish encyclopedia confirms and its the influence of Greek philosophy that has led to this belief and nothing from the bible.
     
  19. from scratch

    from scratch Guest

    +0
    But wabbit said they occur when asleep and really left me to believe that is the only time they occur. Really indicating that the disciples were a sleep and really saw nothing. Yet Jesus isn't recorded saying anything about a dream or vision from a stance form.;) Am I siding with wabbit in this? NO!

    Is the subject of the thread visions? NO! How did it come up? I asked about it because of Moses and Elias both having passed from the physical world to what I call an eternal state. Were Moses and Elias raised from the dead and then sent back to that state of nothingness? I don't think so. So can any body prove different? I maintain that they are alive today.
     
  20. Mikecpking

    Mikecpking Senior Member

    +52
    Christian
    Married
    UK-Liberal-Democrats
    So why did Jesus say "Don't tell this vision to anyone"?

    Death is not extinction, the state of the dead, biblically is one of the 'rephaim' im Sheol (Psalm 88:10, Job 3).
    The Christian afterlife is the resurrection of the dead, not the immortality of the soul.
     
Loading...