What is biblical authority...?

Clare73

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Why do people say essential and non essential. And who have anyone the authority to label parts of scripture as such?
Essential is what is correct regarding salvation, because if you get that wrong, it's not Christian doctrine and your faith may have the wrong object.

But election, predestination, Saturday Sabbath, Sunday Lord's Day, alcohol or no alcohol, etc., etc., etc. won't affect your destiny.
 
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What is the basis for these denominational differences? What is the biblical authority in these cases? (since none of them agree

There is a significant agreement between most denominations, e.g. salvation is through Christ (the Son of God) who died and rose again, God is Creator, sin is the main point of emnity between God and humanity, etc. And, of course, lots of disagreement.

I agree with those that have pointed out the "biblical authority" that leads to denominational differences is ultimately a matter of interpretation. In other words, it's a matter of human error, which is to be expected. What follows from that? Any claim that my interpretation is correct and another's incorrect is ultimately an appeal to human authority. Of course, that's not the conclusion anyone wants. Each wants to say theirs is correct.

If the scriptures have any authority at all for Christians, it must be rooted in the risen Christ. It cannot be that scriptures are self-authenticating. They have authority, if and only if, the one proclaimed within them actually came, died, and rose again. He is not risen because the scriptures say so. They say so, because he is risen.

People try to ground the authority of scripture in its own perfection, its inerrancy. That's a fool's errand. It doesn't have that function. It is a means that points to an end. Only the incarnated, crucified, resurrected, ascended Christ can ground the proclamation found within the scriptures. Whether the scriptures, as a whole, are perfect is irrelevant. The witness doesn't have to be perfect to speak truly about the perfect One.

If the scriptures were perfect and self authenticating, we wouldn't need the witness of the Holy Spirit. To say the Holy Spirit helps us see the scriptures are perfect is redundant. The Holy Spirit first helps us see the truth about Christ as proclaimed in the scriptures. Once that happens, the perfection of the biblical witness is irrelevant.
 
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Clare73

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There is a significant agreement between most denominations, e.g. salvation is through Christ (the Son of God) who died and rose again, God is Creator, sin is the main point of emnity between God and humanity, etc. And, of course, lots of disagreement.

I agree with those that have pointed out the "biblical authority" that leads to denominational differences is ultimately a matter of interpretation. In other words, it's a matter of human error, which is to be expected. What follows from that? Any claim that my interpretation is correct and another's incorrect is ultimately an appeal to human authority. Of course, that's not the conclusion anyone wants. Each wants to say theirs is correct.

If the scriptures have any authority at all for Christians, it must be rooted in the risen Christ. It cannot be that scriptures are self-authenticating. They have authority, if and only if, the one proclaimed within them actually came, died, and rose again. He is not risen because the scriptures say so. They say so, because he is risen.

People try to ground the authority of scripture in its own perfection, its inerrancy. That's a fool's errand. It doesn't have that function. It is a means that points to an end. Only the incarnated, crucified, resurrected, ascended Christ can ground the proclamation found within the scriptures. Whether the scriptures, as a whole, are perfect is irrelevant. The witness doesn't have to be perfect to speak truly about the perfect One.

If the scriptures were perfect and self authenticating, we wouldn't need the witness of the Holy Spirit. To say the Holy Spirit helps us see the scriptures are perfect is redundant. The Holy Spirit first helps us see the truth about Christ as proclaimed in the scriptures. Once that happens, the perfection of the biblical witness is irrelevant.
Wouldn't the authority of Scripture be grounded in its source/origin--"God-breathed" (2 Tim 3:16)?

And is belief in their "authenticity" the issue, or is faith in the one to whom they witness the issue? Not a few don't doubt their authenticity, they just don't have faith in the one to whom they witness, it's just not that important to them.
 
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Wouldn't the authority of Scripture be grounded in its source/origin--"God-breathed" (2 Tim 3:16)?

Yeah, that sounds good, but if Jesus is dead and deteriorating in a grave somewhere that statement says God's a liar.
 
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Clare73

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Yeah, that sounds good, but if Jesus is dead and deteriorating in a grave somewhere that statement says God's a liar.
Oh, so you mean an authority that man will accept and believe them on that basis?
 
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Oh, so you mean an authority that man will accept and believe them on that basis?

I mean the scriptures have authority because Christ is alive and reigning. That is not dependent on the truth of the scriptures. That would be a fact even if the scriptures didn't exist. Of course, they do exist, as a witness to that Truth. The scriptures are subordinate to Christ and have no authority without him, beside him, or instead of him. They have no inherent authority. They are not true in and of themselves, but only in relation to him.
 
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Clare73

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I mean the scriptures have authority because Christ is alive and reigning. That is not dependent on the truth of the scriptures. That would be a fact even if the scriptures didn't exist. Of course, they do exist, as a witness to that Truth. The scriptures are subordinate to Christ and have no authority without him, beside him, or instead of him. They have no inherent authority. They are not true in and of themselves, but only in relation to him.
You're confusing me. . .the NT Scriptures are historical record and doctrine. They have authority because they are God-breathed through apostolic witnesses and those they taught. That authority is the source of their truth and the foundation of Christian doctrine.
 
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That authority is the foundation of Christian doctrine.

I don't mean to confuse you, honestly. The foundation is not scripture, but Christ himself. That might seem like a distinction without a difference. But the authority comes from the reality of Christ, not the written witness to that reality. You can trust the scriptures, not because they are perfect or inerrant, but because they bear witness to the Living Truth.

This is why Christians existed before the New Testament did. There is something about the proclamation under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that brings recognition of the truth. The idea that we must defend scripture, qua scripture, is missing the point.
 
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Essential is what is correct regarding salvation, because if you get that wrong, it's not Christian doctrine and your faith may have the wrong object.

But election, predestination, Saturday Sabbath, Sunday Lord's Day, alcohol or no alcohol, etc., etc., etc. won't affect your destiny.
But aren’t things essential to know if your saved or not? Works or no works? Jesus said only those who do the will of the father will enter the kingdom of I recall right... Doesn’t doing the will of the father make everything essential?
 
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Loversofjesus_2018

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You're confusing me. . .the NT Scriptures are historical record and doctrine. They have authority because they are God-breathed through apostolic witnesses and those they taught. That authority is the source of their truth and the foundation of Christian doctrine.
Are historical records and doctrine without error?
 
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Clare73

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I don't mean to confuse you, honestly. The foundation is not scripture, but Christ himself. That might seem like a distinction without a difference. But the authority comes from the reality of Christ, not the written witness to that reality.
You can trust the scriptures, not because they are perfect or inerrant, but because they bear witness to the Living Truth.

This is why Christians existed before the New Testament did. There is something about the proclamation under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that brings recognition of the truth. The idea that we must defend scripture, qua scripture, is missing the point.
I trust them because the Holy Spirit bore powerful witness to me of their truth.

I believe them when they state they are God-breathed.

Are you saying their authority lies in the power of the Holy Spirit to convince?
But they are true whether I believe and trust them or not.

I may not be able to understand what you are saying.
If you could juxtaposition it in relation to what I understand, maybe I could.
 
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Clare73

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Are historical records and doctrine without error?
The Scriptures are without doctrinal error (in their original documents). No historical error has been demonstrated.
 
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I trust them because the Holy Spirit bore powerful witness to me of their truth.

I believe them when they state they are God-breathed.

Is what you're saying is that their only authority is the power of the Holy Spirit?
But they are true whether I believe and trust them or not.

Yes, they are true whether you trust them or not. They are true whether the Holy Spirit gives witness to them, or not. But they are not true if Jesus is not the risen Christ. Since he is, they are true, therefore he is the ground of their authority (i.e. they bear witness to him). Ultimately, what we believe in is not the book, but the Person.

I realize this may seem an all too subtle distinction, but it really matters. We are never giving a defense of scripture. It is always a defense of the One who holds are hearts. If we try to defend the scriptures, we end up trying to defend things that might have nothing to do with him, because the two are not identical.
 
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Clare73

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But aren’t things essential to know if your saved or not? Works or no works? Jesus said only those who do the will of the father will enter the kingdom of I recall right... Doesn’t doing the will of the father make everything essential?
The will of the Father is Jesus' two commandments (Matthew 22:37-40).
That is what is essential, and covers the whole landscape.
 
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Saint Steven

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Despite the differences in interpretation of certain verses, it's still the Bible that is being interpreted. And it is considered to be God's word by those doing so.

That's how it is for those denominations, mostly Protestant but of different varieties, which do consider the Bible to be God's word and unequalled by any of the other possibilities you mentioned.

When it comes to the Catholic/Orthodox churches and the cults, however, it is something else that is considered as well when it comes to setting doctrine--Holy Tradition in the Catholic/Orthodox case, and, often, some other sacred writing that is considered also to be God's revelation and, therefore, authoritative by some of the cults.

In answer to the question of authority, then, the choices are far fewer than the number of denominations in existence, but it's right to say that there are at least several different approaches to the issue.
So then authority, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder? What is authoritative about that?
 
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Clare73

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Yes, they are true whether you trust them or not. They are true whether the Holy Spirit gives witness to them, or not. But they are not true if Jesus is not the risen Christ. Since he is, they are true, therefore he is the ground of their authority (i.e. they bear witness to him). Ultimately, what we believe in is not the book, but the Person.

I realize this may seem an all to subtle distinction, but it really matters. We are never giving a defense of scripture. It is always a defense of the One who holds are hearts. If we try to defend the scriptures, we end up trying to defend things that might have nothing to do with him, because the two are not identical.
Okay, I get it.
Who thinks they are identical?

But since they were written after the resurrection, I don't get the "if Jesus is not the risen Christ," they are not true.

There is no "if," there was no "if" when they were written.

Why the "if"? That's a settled matter.
 
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public hermit

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I may not be able to understand what you are saying.
If you could juxtaposition it in relation to what I understand, maybe I could.

At this point, I hesitate to go further, because I'm truly not trying to cause confusion, or harm, Clare. Besides, who cares what some social troglodyte says. ;)
 
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Saint Steven

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... Anyway, I had to tell them that as an Orthodox person, I had a better notion of what it was like being under the authority of apostle. That some people by way of their credentials, experience etc. have more say than other people who believe themselves "to be anointed" etc. ...
I would think that authority would be graded as PASS/FAIL, not graded on a curve. How can there be a spectrum of authority? As if one person/thing is MORE authoritative than another? Especially when they disagree.
 
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Saint Steven

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People can claim the authority of the Bible in order to prove themselves right. ...
Right. That is mostly what I see in the way "authority" is used. To prove themselves right, and more importantly, to prove someone else WRONG!
 
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Clare73

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At this point, I hesitate to go further, because I'm truly not trying to cause confusion, or harm, Clare. Besides, who cares what some social troglodyte says. ;)
You won't cause harm. . .and don't talk that way about my favorite "social troglodyte"! :)

We're down to the simple questions now. . .the "if" questions regarding a settled matter.
 
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