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What if...

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    We find all the places that "salvation" is used and put in "Yeshua" which is what His name means... and read the verses...

    Genesis 49:18
    I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord.

    I have waited for thy Yeshua, O Lord.

    Exodus 14:13
    And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.

    And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see Yeshua our Lord, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.

    Exodus 15:2
    The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

    The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my Yeshua: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

    Deuteronomy 32:15
    But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.

    But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock, Yeshua.

    1 Samuel 2:1
    And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the Lord, mine horn is exalted in the Lord: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation.

    And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the Lord, mine horn is exalted in the Lord: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy Yeshua.

    2 Samuel 22:3
    The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

    The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my Yeshua, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

    2 Samuel 22:36
    Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy gentleness hath made me great.

    Thou hast also given me the shield of thy Yshua: and thy gentleness hath made me great.

    2 Samuel 22:47
    The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock of my salvation.

    The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and exalted be the God of the rock, my Yeshua.

    1 Chronicles 16:23
    Sing unto the Lord, all the earth; shew forth from day to day his salvation.

    Sing unto the Lord, all the earth; shew forth from day to day his Yeshua.

    1 Chronicles 16:35
    And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise.

    And say ye, Save us, O God, our Yeshua, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise.

    2 Chronicles 6:41
    And say ye, Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us together, and deliver us from the heathen, that we may give thanks to thy holy name, and glory in thy praise.

    Now therefore arise, O Lord God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O Lord God, be clothed with Yeshua, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.

    2 Chronicles 20:17
    Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the Lord with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the Lord will be with you.

    Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see Yeshua our Lord with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the Lord will be with you.

    Job 13:16
    He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.

    He also shall be my Yeshua: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.

    Psalm 3:8
    Salvation belongeth unto the Lord: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

    Yeshua belongeth unto the Lord: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

    Psalm 9:14
    That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.

    That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy Yeshua.

    Psalm 13:5
    But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation.

    But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy Yeshua.

    Psalm 14:7
    Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

    Oh that Yeshua of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

    Psalm 18:2
    The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

    The Lord is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my Yeshua, and my high tower.

    Psalm 18:35
    Thou hast also given me the shield of thy salvation: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.

    Thou hast also given me the shield of thy Yeshua: and thy right hand hath holden me up, and thy gentleness hath made me great.


    Psalm 18:46
    The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

    The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God, my Yeshua be exalted.
     
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  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Psalm 20:5
    We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners: the Lord fulfil all thy petitions.

    We will rejoice in thy Yeshua, and the name of our God we will set up our banners: the Lord fulfil all thy petitions.

    Psalm 21:1
    The king shall joy in thy strength, O Lord; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!

    The king shall joy in thy strength, O Lord and in thy Yeshua how greatly shall he rejoice!

    Psalm 21:5
    His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him.

    His glory is great in thy Yeshua: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him.

    Strong's Number: 3468 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word Word Origin
    [Xy from (03467)
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Yesha` TWOT - 929a
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    yeh'-shah [​IMG] Noun Masculine
    Definition
    1. deliverance, salvation, rescue, safety, welfare
      1. safety, welfare, prosperity
      2. salvation
      3. victory
     
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Hebrew Bible, Isaiah 62:11. "Behold, Jehovah has proclaimed unto the end of the world. Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold thy Yeshua cometh; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work is before Him."

    Can't you see that here SALVATION is a Person and not a thing or an event? 'HE comes, HIS reward is with HIM, and HIS work is before HIM."
     
  4. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    ... or vice versa. Read Yeshua / Messiah for 'salvation'.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Interesting exercise, but misleading. First, "Yeshua" does not mean "salvation". It means "he will save". It is number 3442 in Strong's, not 3468 as your second post suggests. 3468 means "salvation".

    Second, I noticed some liberality in your handling of the text where you put "Yeshua" in. For example, in Exodus 14:13 you wrote;

    And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see Yeshua our Lord, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
    whereas, the Hebrew text does not have "our" in it.

    ויאמרH559 said משׁהH4872 And Moses אלH413 unto העםH5971 the people, אלH408 ye not, תיראוH3372 Fear התיצבוH3320 stand still, וראוH7200 and see אתH853 ישׁועתH3444 the salvation יהוהH3068 of YHWH, אשׁרH834 which יעשׂהH6213 he will show לכם היוםH3117 to you today: כיH3588 for אשׁרH834 whom ראיתםH7200 ye have seen אתH853 מצריםH4713 היוםH3117 today, לאH3808 no תספוH3254 more לראתםH7200 ye shall see עודH5750 them again עדH5704 עולם׃H5769 forever.

    And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of YHWH, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
    The suffix "tav" at the end of "yeshua" (yeshuat) means "of". BTW, don't be misled by the number H3444 in reference to "the salvation". This eSword Hebrew Interlinear put the wrong number. It should be H3442. H3444 is "yeshuah". They mistook the tav for a heh.

    Third;

    John 3:16 For God [Father YHWH] so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son [Yeshua], that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    John 3:17 For God [Father YHWH] sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    Father YHWH (God) is the ultimate Saviour of the world. He accomplishes this work of salvation through His Son whom He "gave" and "sent". It is YHWH who made the Son to be our Saviour.

    Acts 5:31 Him has God [Father YHWH] exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
    Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed has God [Father YHWH] according to His promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Yeshua:​
     
  6. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    You removed "of" which does favor your interpretation over that of gadar perets interpretation.

    Can you see how gadar would have a different interpretation with the addition of "of" ...
    "The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God, of my Yeshua be exalted."

    Looking in the rear view mirror it's not difficult to see Yeshua throughout the TaNaKh, but if you had never read the NT and not born again it wouldn't be so obvious to see the Deity of the Father and Son in all those verses you posted.
     
  7. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    Is this a vailed way of saying I'm not born again?
     
  8. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    I'll share one, Visionary. :) Unfortunately I didn't save the links to the pages I read when I was studying Jonah, but... there is an extra letter in "Salvation" in the following verse:

    Jon 2:9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

    ישועתה
     
  9. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    "of" is not in the translations, but is put in there to help the English sentence structure work. Since the translators didn't pick up on this, they took it to be a word "salvation" and not "Yeshua" as a person.
     
  10. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    The KJV translates Strong's H3444 in the following manner: salvation (65x), help (4x), deliverance (3x), health (3x), save (1x), saving (1x), welfare (1x).
    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
    1. salvation, deliverance
      1. welfare, prosperity

      2. deliverance

      3. salvation (by God)

      4. victory
     
  11. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    The translators knew it was NOT talking about a person, but of the act of saving.
     
  12. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    I never said H3444 did not mean "salvation". H3442 means "he will save".
     
  13. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Only God knows. What is ... shall i say confusing ... is that both you and vis believe beyond a shadow of doubt that you are both born again with the indwelling presence of His Spirit as your Teacher. visionary believes Yeshua is the physical manifestation of God (YHVH) Incarnate; while you don't believe Yeshua is the physical manifestation of God (YHWH) Incarnate.

    Sometimes it's difficult to explain one's beliefs without the risk of getting a warning. So it's understandable why you may feel like you're at a disadvantage. Just want to say that i have never reported anyone's post to an administrator. If you remember i once said that CF may overlook some of your posts as they do seem to represent a certain [sectarian] belief within Messianic Judaism (as previously eluded to the meaning of "sectarian" by tampasteve on another thread).
     
  14. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Blessed are the peacemakers...
     
  15. gadar perets

    gadar perets Messianic Hebrew

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    There are many born again Christians that just don't see the Sabbath at this point in their walk. That is primarily due to the fact that they misunderstand Paul's writings and have been indoctrinated to believe otherwise. It is a matter of education. Seeds must be planted and watered so the Spirit can bring forth growth. The sad thing is, I am being denied the opportunity to continue teaching and planting those seeds.
     
  16. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    God will open up a way for you.... obviously a different way,... but may you be blessed in your planting and watering for His Kingdom. I know some great believers also who are not yet awakened to the importance of the Sabbath, but it doesn't change their "milk" walk with Him for now.
     
  17. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    Not sure if i'm to take that as a compliment being that you didn't post a "like" or "informative" on that post to which you refer.

    The problem is when two strong-minded Believers both think they are right and the other is wrong it accomplishs little. The other problem is IF one of the two realizes they may be wrong it takes a Special person to admit their error; especially when both come across as born again Believers with the indwelling presence of His Spirit as their Teacher.​
     
  18. AbbaLove

    AbbaLove Circumcision of the Heart is Messianic

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    As Ronald Reagan would say, "There you go again!" Your reply isn't what this "What if... "salvation" thread is about. Besides when did you ever run the risk of getting a warning in this MJ forum for instructing a Christian that the Sabbath is on the 7th day of the week and not the 8th day (Sunday) of the week?

    You know perfectly well that it would be the "Christian" that would be more at risk for teaching in this MJ forum that the Sabbath is Sunday and not Saturday. That's what i meant as an example of "There you go again!" What's always been the risk you face is teaching that Yeshua is not the physical manifestation of God/Elohim/YHWH ... whether on the thread "connecting the dots..." or this "What if" thread or another MJ thread.

    You believe you are born again with the indwelling presence of His Spirit as your Teacher so you expect MJs to believe you and not MJs that believe Yeshua is the physical manifestation of God Incarnate. So it upsets you when someone posts after post with replies that Yeshua "is in fact" God/Elohim/YHWH. Granted you are very, very knowledgeable and many of your replies are RIGHT-ON and get a "like", "agree", "informative" and "winner" approval. And yet can you name one member of this MJ forum that believes Yeshua is an "elohim" (god) and not the physical manifestation of God Incarnate ?
    Is it your belief then that MJ members of this forum are deceived if they believe Yeshua is the physical manifestation of God/Elohim/YHWH Incarnate ?
     
  19. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    1 Cor 1:4 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea. 2 They all were immersed into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 And all ate the same spiritual food - 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink - for they were drinking from a spiritual rock that followed them; and the Rock was Messiah.

    Yeshua was there....
     
  20. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Heb 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, partners in a heavenly calling, take notice of Yeshua, the Shaliach and Kohen Gadol we affirm. 2 He was faithful to the One who appointed Him in His house, as was Moses also. 3 For He has been considered worthy of more glory than Moses, even as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5 Now Moses surely was faithful in all God's house as a servant, for a witness of things to be spoken later. 6 But Messiah, as Son, is over God's house--and we are His house, if we hold firm to our boldness and what we are proud to hope.

    He has been over God's business with those of earth since the foundation of the world, both in its creation, its salvation, and its redemption in the end. Yeshua will judge the world on the last day (Matt 25:31-46; John 5:27-29; 2Cor 5:10).
     
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