What if we're wrong?

Devin P

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What if we have something wrong? Could it be possible at all that we're off, even just a bit?

In this article, I'm merely asking questions. I'd rather not debate, and I'm only asking that you look at this (if nothing else, as a hypothetical)

So, try to look at everything in this article with the frame that, maybe Christianity as we know it, is flawed. This doesn't mean it is, but for the sake of reading this, just look at it from the perspective that it's not completely impossible that it could be wrong.

Now before I get started, Jesus is absolutely our Messiah. Our Savior. 100%, He kept all of the Torah that applied to Him, and even prophetically fulfilled many of the things no one could've ever foreseen Him fulfilling. The 4 spring feasts, the red heifer sacrifice, the cleansing of the leprous house, etc, etc. But, He tells us that although many are to be called to Him, only a small percentage will actually walk that small path to salvation.

In Matthew 22:14, Jesus said that many will be called, but few would be chosen.

Christianity is the largest religion in the world today, and has been one of the largest religions almost since it began. It's gone through times it struggled, but has never been eradicated, and has always been one of the more large ever since it boomed back during the book of Acts.

What if, we're worshipping the right person, but we're doing it in a way that is still missing the mark? If many are called, but few chosen, and it's the largest religion in the world, then either He was wrong in saying that few will be chosen, or we're off slightly in the walk.

We're to be hated for our walk.
John 15:8 - If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Provers 29:27 - An unjust man is abominable to the righteous, And he who is upright in the way is abominable to the wicked.
Matthew 10:22 - You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

We're to stand in direct opposition to the world, and stick out like sore thumbs.
Matthew 5:14 - Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Phillipians 2:14 - so that you may be blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and perverse generation, in which you shine as lights in the world
1 Peter 2:9 -But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

We're supposed to be different than the world, because they walk in darkness, and we walk in light. But what is this light? How do we know we're walking in it? The bible tells us what is this light, all throughout the scriptures it tells us.

Proverbs 6:23 - For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

The word "law" in the original text, is Torah. Which is the instruction, or what we call today the "law". The Torah is the light that we are to be for those walking in darkness.

I've heard many say, and I used to think myself, that our love was to be our light. Yet, we get out "christianed" by Jehovah witnesses, and Mormons all the time. What if our light, wasn't just as it's said today, the love we walk in? If love truly was our only light, then how would our light be any different than any of the cults I just described? What if the light it's referring to, is Torah, and not just love?

Romans 2:13
- (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
James 2:17 - Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20 -O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?

I used to think that us doing works, was wickedness, regardless. But, when I felt that way, verses like this caused an inner turmoil inside me, because they didn't make sense if the Torah was done away with completely.

What if, in keeping Torah out of faith, that was our light. I 100% agree that, no matter how well you keep the Torah you will not be deserving of salvation. I 100% agree that faith and faith alone will result in your salvation, because all have sinned, but the hebraic way of looking at faith isn't how we view it in America. Faith hebraically, is a belief that results in an action. It's believing and doing, not just believing.

All I'm saying, is I used to think that there were different times. That when Moses gave the laws, that no one before had anything to observe, and that after Moses, no one was justified without what Jesus did. That, if you were under the law, you couldn't come before God, and that you couldn't keep the law while being justified by faith, because they didn't mix. But, if that's so, and if keeping the Torah, denies you from being accepted by faith, how do we explain Moses? David? Joshua? Any of the prophets? They all kept Torah, but walked in faith, and they were given to do amazing things. They were men of great faith, yet they kept Torah. Why? Because, they believed, and their belief resulted in action.

All throughout scriptures they warn us of two extremes. One, being without the law. or Two, having the law, but no faith. The great men of faith had both. They kept Torah, but they did so in absolute faith, knowing that even if they messed up, or others, they'd get on their hands and knees before God, and pray or beg for mercy. This humility, fear, reverence, and love for God allowed Moses to talk before God. It allowed Enoch to not only walk with God, but to have God translate Him into heaven, it allowed Abraham to be justified by faith, even though he still kept the Law of God (Genesis 26:4-5), it allowed David to be forgiven for breaking the 10 commandments when he had a man killed just to sleep with and marry his wife, etc.

Faith without works is dead, because if we don't have works that back up our faith (His Law, His light to shine before the world, to those in darkness) then we believe in vain. Whether it's the men of great faith in the OT, or the men of great faith in the NT that kept the feasts, sacrificed an animal for the nazarite vow, taught gentiles to keep feasts, I feel that since most will openly reject this message, the few that will be chosen are those that desire to keep Torah, because they truly have faith.

I'll close out with this, here is Paul referring to the law of God.

Romans 85-8 - For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

God's law, is spirit, so if we walk in spirit, we're walking in Torah. Because the flesh doesn't desire Torah, it hates Torah, and it's why we can't avoid sin, because we're in fleshy bodies. Earlier in Romans 7, he mentioned that his mind desires to obey, and he walks accordingly, but his flesh still causes him to stumble. So, he desires to walk according to Torah, and does, but his flesh keeps him from being perfect in it.

What's my point? What if, our light, is the obedience to the ways and instructions of God. It's eating from the tree of life, but the serpent is trying to get us to eat from the knowledge of good and evil (our own judgement) and walk accordingly. God tells us what to do, but because we are flesh, and are often led by minds of flesh, we desire not the spirit, nor the ways of the spirit, which as Paul says are the laws of God. We, and the serpent lead us astray to do that which seems right in our own eyes, which is exactly what the whole world does. Our proof, is our light, and the light is Torah. The world is darkness, and by standing in opposition to it, we are light.

John 1:15 - And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

By walking in Torah, we will seem peculiar, but will be shining our light on high for all to see. We will obviously fail and slip up from time to time, but we're expected to grow. The important part, is the realize that when we do slip up, we have an advocate.

1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Here John tells us not to sin, but then, in the next chapter, he tells us what sin is.

1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I'm not looking for a debate, I'm just asking questions. What if Christianity as we know it, has been gravely wrong about some things?
 

seeking.IAM

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Christianity is right and true. It is never wrong. Now, our beliefs about it, on the other hand, are subject to error. Regardless on one's Christian faith association or practice, I believe we are all wrong about something. All of us. We are human after all. I believe when we arrive at Heaven, we all will hear about something, "Well you were wrong about that part. That's not what I meant, but you were faithful and close enough. Come on in."
 
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Shempster

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I might get toasted alive for this, but....

my feeling is that we are ALL wrong in many areas. The church teaches things as facts that are way off base because they misinterpret things and that goes for the guys that translated the KJV as well. Nobody is exempt.
I absolutely won't mention any because it would be my opinion and I know I am likely wrong about some of it.
God has shown me in my walk with Him that we are being tested. Our true nature and character is being formulated by our experiences in life. Our beliefs play into this for sure. The problem with beliefs though is that there are thousands of groups and splinter groups all using the same text to make them.

One huge question I had for 45 years is "If God wants us to know the truth, why does the bible not clearly make a statement, but only hints at it? Why are there verses that seem to say the opposite of others? Why are there so many possible doctrines? It's almost like God gives us a riddle and expects us to figure it out amid the thousands of voices out there pushing their version. It seemed like He purposely wants to trick most of us.

In a way all this is true. It is like a letter written in a different language. 10 people can read it. Some know a few words and can decipher a bit of the message, but the overall meaning is hidden.
Only the one who knows that other language fluently can truly decipher the meaning.
This, I think is the situation we are in.

The meaning of life IS that text symbolically in my illustration And the language is.......God's pure, unconditional love.
Those who experience the real love of God are so affected that they reflect that love towards all in both thought and deed.
People may be religious and have an appearance of being holy but if their mind is greedy, selfish, lustful, hateful, proud, haughty and fearful then all they see in the bible is a monster-god who is harsh and vindictive and they reflect that in their souls.

So...I don't think God is terribly worried if you think Jesus was half God and half man or all of each. None of us knows exactly what or who He is because there is a veil covering up the invisible dimensions that He exists in. How do I know this? Because I spent 45 years like everybody else both believing and teaching what the establishment told me was true, but it wasn't working. That old man still ran the show. No I didn't smoke and get drunk, but I wished evil upon my enemies inside my mind. I lusted after more money and posessions. The church kept telling me God thinks of me as perfect, because of my beliefs. I lived in this false system that though my heart was dark I was headed for the pearly gates because I claimed to identify with Jesus. But I only identified with His image and religious system. I did not identify with the person portrayed in Matthew 5 & 6.
I believed that was just a target to aim at and that humans cannot truly love their enemies.I was so far off base it wasn't funny.

But God kept nudging me through the years and telling me to stop listening to those who spoke in circles never offering real answers.
The language of our Creator is pure unconditional love. The only way we can make sense of any of the bible is to deal with Him as He really is.
The very very first step was to look at this little "god" I created named Shempster...or David. It was all about me and my stupid little ego. I had to dethrone my own self to even be able to talk to God.

If I get banned, just know I mean to share my experience and mean no ill-will towards teachers, preachers and forums. I just want to share this pearl with a few. You don't have to respect it, just please don't rub it in the mud.

Love you all.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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Loving the thread! Just thought I'd post some verses I read earlier today that fit the subject:

Psalms 119:
30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.

43 And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth; for I have hoped in thy judgments.

142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

151 Thou art near, O Yahweh; and all thy commandments are truth.​

John 14:
6 Yahushua saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Amen Yahweh!
 
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jax5434

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I'm pretty sure we all have some things wrong. Fortunately we only have to get one thing right. "who do you say that I am?"
As to the "many are called but few are chosen" Jesus also said this "
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
But I think he may be speaking here of a perspective-not a percentage. In the parable of the Prodigal Son one son safe was too few, one son lost was too many. In the parable of the coins 11 coins safe was too few, one coin lost was too many. In the parable of the sheep 99 sheep safe was too few, one sheep lost was too many.
So when he says there are few who enter the straight gate that leads to life perhaps he is speaking as a loving Father who would mourn the passing of even one of his children.

God Bless
Jax
 
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Radagast

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What if we have something wrong? Could it be possible at all that we're off, even just a bit?

In this article, I'm merely asking questions.

What if what you're saying is heresy, specifically condemned in the NT?
 
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Devin P

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What if what you're saying is heresy, specifically condemned in the NT?
That is a very good question. What if?

I've asked myself that question regarding the modern church and regarding the topic of my Op, and I've come to the conclusion of my post based on what I've found in scripture. Hopefully we are all humble enough to ask ourselves when faced with any question or critic and take The questions straight to scripture. So regardless of our view, wet question it in humility, testing all to scripture. The importance of asking what if can't be overlooked. We all need to be asking ourselves what if. What if we're right, and what if we're wrong?
 
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Ron Gurley

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OP: Q: "What if Christianity (as we know it), has been "gravely wrong" about some things? (doctrinal truths?)"

A: Christ-following is a belief system arising from the ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS contained in the Bible.
Being doctrinally perfect is not a pre-requisite to salvation. It is impossible for Man to perfectly keep/follow the Mosaic Law and all precepts in the Bible.
We can only spiritually agree that all Men are sinners in need of a Savior.

Then: focus on John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2.

BELIEVE unto the Salvation "Event"...THEN...FOLLOW unto the Sanctification PROCESS during which the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit comforts and guides the saved believer into the perfect will of God.

Christ-followers are not perfect...they are forgiven.
1 John 1
 
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Devin P

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So, I feel like, based on the chapters you've chosen, and understanding someone's argument for why they feel the Torah was done away with, and why it shouldn't be kept today, I'd like to start off by saying I agree completely that keeping the Torah will not save anyone. The bible says that, if your basis for salvation lies in the fact that you're obeying the law, you will not inherit the kingdom.

I'm not advocating, nor does the bible advocate gaining our access and inheritance into the kingdom based on our ability to keep Torah. Absolutely not, not at all. But, the Torah, the "law", is spiritual, and the ways of the world are the ways of the flesh.

Romans 7:14-25
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The bold and underlined, Paul is talking about how he desires to keep and uphold Torah, to be blameless, but his flesh prevents him from doing so. It angers and irritates him, as verse 15 points out, he desires to be blameless in the law. In verse 16 he says that since him sinning (breaking Torah), is something he desires not to do, but yet his flesh still causes him to do, verse 17 he tells us that it's the sin that dwells in his flesh that causes him to sin, and not his own will. Not his own desire, but the earthly body he's still living in, because as the end of verse 16 shows, he consents that the Torah (God's Law) is good, and desires to keep it, but his flesh makes that impossible to perfectly uphold it. Then 21-25 he talks about how he'll be delivered from this dilemma, and that although he desires to keep Torah, yet fails, Jesus's sacrifice is enough for Him to enter heaven, even though he still desires to keep the law, and tries to keep it, yet fails. That sin, isn't held against him, because of his faith in Jesus and His sacrifice for us.

Then, in Romans 8:
Romans 8:1-8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(We learn in Romans 7:14 - "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." that the Torah (law of God) is spiritual, and that our ways are carnal and flesh)

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

In Romans 2 we see two laws. The law of the spirit of life (Torah) and the law of sin and death (the man-made traditions, and doctrines that Jesus taught and spoke against the entire time He was with the disciples on earth.)
As Paul mentions in Romans 7, inwardly he desires to keep Torah, and in verse 6 here we see that if your mind desires to keep Torah, and you walk it out as best you can, even though your flesh will cause you to sin, because your faith is on Jesus for your justification, you're still saved. In verse 7, we see that the reason the carnal mind is at odds against God, is because it's not subject to the law of God (Torah). So quite literally, those who aren't spiritual, who are at enmity against God, are such because their minds, their desires, aren't towards keeping the Torah (the law of God).
OP: Q: "What if Christianity (as we know it), has been "gravely wrong" about some things? (doctrinal truths?)"

A: Christ-following is a belief system arising from the ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS contained in the Bible.
Being doctrinally perfect is not a pre-requisite to salvation. It is impossible for Man to perfectly keep/follow the Mosaic Law and all precepts in the Bible.
We can only spiritually agree that all Men are sinners in need of a Savior.

Then: focus on John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2.
So if we look at Ephesians 2 -
In verses 1-3
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

In verse 1, it shows us that before Jesus and His truth, we were dead in sins and trespasses.
In verse 2, We disobeyed God just like the rest of the world, who walked according to the world and the flesh, and disobeyed God with the rest of the world.
In verse 3, we see that we talked of the world, and spoke of the world before Jesus and His truth, and talked of fulfilling the desires of the flesh (which isn't Torah) and of the mind (showing the contrary to what Paul was describing in Romans 7 and 8, the mind's desire to keep Torah).

Then in verse 12 -
Ephesians 2:12-13:
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

We see that when we were without Jesus, we were apart from Israel. We had no Torah, we had no covenant, we had no promise, but now with our faith in Jesus in verses 18-20:

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

In verse 18, we see that whether Israel, or Gentile, we have access by one spirit.
In verse 19, we see that we who were once strangers, and foreigners, are now (by the blood of Jesus) made fellow citizens of Israel.
In verse 20, we see that the same foundation that the apostles and the prophets were built on (the law of God, coming to repentance and desiring the law of God and to uphold it) is brought to perfection, not by keeping the law, but by the chief corner stone, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
BELIEVE unto the Salvation "Event"...THEN...FOLLOW unto the Sanctification PROCESS during which the permanently indwelling God the Holy Spirit comforts and guides the saved believer into the perfect will of God.

Christ-followers are not perfect...they are forgiven.
1 John 1
Now if we read all of 1 John -
1 John 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now there are some key points there. That we aren't to walk in darkness. And that we should walk in light, as He walked in light. What was the light He walked in?

Psalm 119:105 -
Your word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path.

Proverbs 6:23 -
For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Psalm 119:113 -
113I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.

We see that His Torah (His law) is a light, and that the world doesn't understand, nor submit to it. Nor can the flesh, because it hates the law, and has from the beginning.

In verse 7 in 1 John, we see that we are to walk in the light, as He walked in the light. What does this mean?

Men made man-made laws in addition to God's law. They made their own laws of more importance than the law of God. Jesus kept the law, but only that which God expects us to observe, the truth regarding the law. The simplicity, the love, of which Torah was always about. All throughout the bible you see men who failed (who kept the law with the wrong understanding of it) yet you also see men of great faith that kept it, but understood the depth of it because of their faith. They knew they'd sin, but they rested on the justification of God for their sins, and only desired the law because of the light and closeness to God it offered. Men can't stand before God because of their sin, yet Moses could because of his faith - not his keeping of the law. Our keeping of the law isn't what saves us, but what proves that we already are saved.

God Bless, brother.
 
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Sarah G

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My current thinking is that if I feel I am somehow lacking as a Christian it's not more law or rules that I need but more love. Love for God, for Lord Jesus Christ, love for others, love for myself. Asceticism, rule following, self-policing isn't increasing my love for God, others or myself. We need to get closer to Lord Jesus Christ, be up to our ears in the Holy Spirit all day and night and cultivate more love, radiate love, be in love with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I especially like Shempster's response and find it sad that a person must consider potential consequences (like being banned) for suggesting that we love more.

Those who experience the real love of God are so affected that they reflect that love towards all in both thought and deed.
People may be religious and have an appearance of being holy but if their mind is greedy, selfish, lustful, hateful, proud, haughty and fearful then all they see in the bible is a monster-god who is harsh and vindictive and they reflect that in their souls.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


31 ..I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do..

John 15:
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
 
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Ronald

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Christianity cannot be wrong, God is sovereign. If you think that He would leave it up to us to spread the gospel without Him His powerful influence and direction, you are deceiving yourself. He sees the end from the beginning -- so in His eternal plan, it's a done deal. All good works come from God and He works through us. That said, Christianity is and must be perfectly on track according to His Plan. If it wasn't, He would not be sovereign. Every Christian written in the Book of Life has been accounted for up to this second. And those who will be saved, will be saved. 1/3 is the Remnant Israel and 1/3 is the amount of people that will be saved on the planet. We have currently 2.3 - 2.4 billion Christians (which is about 1/3 of the 7.2 billion).
Many are called! The gospel has been preached to the entire world as a testimony to every nation. In Matt. 24:14 Jesus said the end would come when this is accomplished and recently it has been. People are called but they resist, rebel and reject Him, over and over and over again. He gives them ample opportunities to be fair, but already knows the elect. He knows the reprobate. He stands knocking the door and whosoever opens it, He comes in to sup with.
Romans 1 says that man is without excuse. God has revealed his invisible attributes and His power is seen in Creation.
 
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Devin P

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My current thinking is that if I feel I am somehow lacking as a Christian it's not more law or rules that I need but more love. Love for God, for Lord Jesus Christ, love for others, love for myself. Asceticism, rule following, self-policing isn't increasing my love for God, others or myself. We need to get closer to Lord Jesus Christ, be up to our ears in the Holy Spirit all day and night and cultivate more love, radiate love, be in love with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I especially like Shempster's response and find it sad that a person must consider potential consequences (like being banned) for suggesting that we love more.
I understand where you're coming from, and I felt the same. I seriously used to think the same exact thing, but then I kept having the verses "many are called, few are chosen" "narrow is the way", and since Christianity is and has been one of the biggest religions in history, I couldn't stop that from hitting me. Narrow is the way, narrow, few. 50% of our country are christians, and christians look just like the world mainly, so since we are supposed to look contrary to the world, it bothered me, until I read what the scriptures said, and found things that my pastors were saying weren't there, and things that seminary didn't teach. I found that what I'd been taught, and what I'd heard, was much different than what the bible teaches.

1 John 2:6 -
He that saith that he abideth in Him, ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked.

He kept Torah, but He didn't keep Torah for salvation. He had faith, and His faith was what justified Him. He also, for our sakes, kept the law perfectly, but even still, didn't use this completion for salvation, but relied on faith. This can be proven, when we find that Jesus is not only our passover lamb, but also our red heifer. His ministry lasted three years, and just like the length of his ministry, the red heifer has to be watched for three years, and cannot have a yoke placed on it's neck or it is disqualified. Since He is our red heifer, we know that just like the heifer, Jesus didn't work for those three years, meaning that even though He kept the law perfectly, He didn't place His faith in His keeping of the law, but in His Father, and what His Word said about who He was, and still is.
 
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Devin P

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Christianity cannot be wrong, God is sovereign. If you think that He would leave it up to us to spread the gospel without Him His powerful influence and direction, you are deceiving yourself. He sees the end from the beginning -- so in His eternal plan, it's a done deal. All good works come from God and He works through us. That said, Christianity is and must be perfectly on track according to His Plan. If it wasn't, He would not be sovereign. Every Christian written in the Book of Life has been accounted for up to this second. And those who will be saved, will be saved. 1/3 is the Remnant Israel and 1/3 is the amount of people that will be saved on the planet. We have currently 2.3 - 2.4 billion Christians (which is about 1/3 of the 7.2 billion).
Many are called!
Many are called, but few are chosen.
The gospel has been preached to the entire world as a testimony to every nation. In Matt. 24:14 Jesus said the end would come when this is accomplished and recently it has been. People are called but they resist, rebel and reject Him, over and over and over again. He gives them ample opportunities to be fair, but already knows the elect. He knows the reprobate. He stands knocking the door and whosoever opens it, He comes in to sup with.
Romans 1 says that man is without excuse. God has revealed his invisible attributes and His power is seen in Creation.

Romans 2 says that man is without excuse, you're absolutely right. We are without excuse when it comes to knowing God, I agree.

I definitely also agree that people are called, but that they also resist.

I have a question for you though my brother,

You quoted from Romans 2:1, but down in verse 4

Romans 2:4 - 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Here in Romans 2:4, Paul asks the church if they despise the goodness of God, because they aren't repenting, and the goodness of God, is supposed to lead us and them to repentance.

What are they, and we ourselves, supposed to repent from?
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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I was pondering over these verses:

Proverbs 6:
23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:​

Psalms 119:
142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

John 14:
6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

He then tells us how to correctly apply the Law and Torah in Matthew chapters 5, 6, and 7.

At the end he likens anyone who doesn't keep His saying to a fool who built his house on sand.

Matthew 7:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Don't believe people who tell you the Law has been done away with. Like the scribes and pharisees, they're full of dead men's bones: (Matthew 23:27)

Oh. About Paul...

Romans 3:

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

He gave up that pharisee non-sense a long time ago.

Seek Yahweh!
 
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Wordkeeper

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I was pondering over these verses:

Proverbs 6:
23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:​

Psalms 119:
142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

John 14:
6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matthew 5:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

He then tells us how to correctly apply the Law and Torah in Matthew chapters 5, 6, and 7.

At the end he likens anyone who doesn't keep His saying to a fool who built his house on sand.

Matthew 7:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Don't believe people who tell you the Law has been done away with. Like the scribes and pharisees, they're full of dead men's bones: (Matthew 23:27)

Oh. About Paul...

Romans 3:

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

He gave up that pharisee non-sense a long time ago.

Seek Yahweh!
Hi, could you tell us how to observe the law of the Sabbath?
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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Hi, could you tell us how to observe the law of the Sabbath?

It's kinda like how Paul kept the feasts:

Acts of the Apostles 18:
20 When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not;

21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.​

Acts of the Apostles 20:
6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread, and came to them at Troas in five days, where we stayed seven days.​

1 Corinthians 16:
8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost.​

1 Corinthians 5:
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.​

"leaven" is referring to the tradition of the elders that pharisees added to the commandments of Yahweh. See Matthew 16:5-12 and Luke 12:1.

Just remember:

Colossians 2:
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:​

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.​

"is" is added. It's really saying don't let outsiders (like pharisees) judge you on these matters, because they teach "the commandments and doctrines of men" (verse 22), but rather, let only the Body of Christ judge you on these matters, like in Matthew 18:15-20.

The Sabbath is such a large topic in the Bible that if you really want to learn more about it and how Yahweh and Christ wants you to keep it, I suggest searching for the word "sabbath" in any digital copy of the Bible and praying to our Father in heaven.

But here's a good start, when Christ was talking about the the signs of the Second Coming and the end of the age:

Matthew 24:
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be [again].

Praise and seek Yahweh!
 
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BobRyan

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1 John 2:1 - My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Here John tells us not to sin, but then, in the next chapter, he tells us what sin is.

1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I'm not looking for a debate, I'm just asking questions. What if Christianity as we know it, has been gravely wrong about some things?

Protesting Catholics during the dark ages asserted with conviction that much of Christianity had fallen into a compromised mix of truth with error... some doctrines correct... other doctrines in error.

And of course a great many denominations since then - have found that the dark ages inserted a wide number of errors into popular Christianity over the centuries.
 
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Wordkeeper

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It's kinda like how Paul kept the feasts:

Acts of the Apostles 18:
20 When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not;

21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.​

Acts of the Apostles 20:
6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread, and came to them at Troas in five days, where we stayed seven days.​

1 Corinthians 16:
8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost.​

1 Corinthians 5:
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.​

"leaven" is referring to the tradition of the elders that pharisees added to the commandments of Yahweh. See Matthew 16:5-12 and Luke 12:1.

Just remember:

Colossians 2:
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:​

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.​

"is" is added. It's really saying don't let outsiders (like pharisees) judge you on these matters, because they teach "the commandments and doctrines of men" (verse 22), but rather, let only the Body of Christ judge you on these matters, like in Matthew 18:15-20.

The Sabbath is such a large topic in the Bible that if you really want to learn more about it and how Yahweh and Christ wants you to keep it, I suggest searching for the word "sabbath" in any digital copy of the Bible and praying to our Father in heaven.

But here's a good start, when Christ was talking about the the signs of the Second Coming and the end of the age:

Matthew 24:
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be [again].

Praise and seek Yahweh!
Thanks. How do we observe the law of circumcision?
 
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