What if we aren't in the End?

Timtofly

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It has nothing to do with being in human form or not. Sin originated from Satan.

Is murder a sin? Not only does Satan sin, he was the first, and is the worst. All of the suffering of the world can be laid at his doorstep.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Now referring to Cain?

You can heep human attributes on Satan all day, but still will not make Satan a human.

Paul says by one man, Adam, sin entered the world. Is Paul referring to Satan here? Was Satan the serpent or literally Adam, and Eve was taken out of Satan? How far do you need to go to prove a false notion?
 
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Douggg

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Now referring to Cain?

You can heep human attributes on Satan all day, but still will not make Satan a human.

Paul says by one man, Adam, sin entered the world. Is Paul referring to Satan here? Was Satan the serpent or literally Adam, and Eve was taken out of Satan? How far do you need to go to prove a false notion?
I am not saying Satan is a human. The king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:12 is a code name for Satan in that set of verses.

Jesus in John 8:44 is not referring to Cain, but the devil.
 
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Timtofly

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I am not saying Satan is a human. The king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:12 is a code name for Satan in that set of verses.

Jesus in John 8:44 is not referring to Cain, but the devil.
Cain was the first murderer. Who did Satan murder? "Code name" is just saying the writer is applying human attributes to Satan. Not actually describing literal Satan. Describing Satan in human terms is not turning Satan into a human, nor is it stating that Satan is a sinner. Satan is being compared to humans, but is not a human. John repeats Jesus' words in 1 John 3:8-12 and links Satan to Cain.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
 
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Douggg

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Cain was the first murderer. Who did Satan murder? "Code name" is just saying the writer is applying human attributes to Satan. Not actually describing literal Satan. Describing Satan in human terms is not turning Satan into a human, nor is it stating that Satan is a sinner. Satan is being compared to humans, but is not a human. John repeats Jesus' words in 1 John 3:8-12 and links Satan to Cain.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Who sought to get Adam and Eve to sin and thus die? Satan or Cain?
 
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Timtofly

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Who sought to get Adam and Eve to sin and thus die? Satan or Cain?
Proof to get Adam to disobey God, does not make Satan the original sinner. Satan wanted sin to enter the world, and only Adam could let sin in. There still was no sin until after Adam disobeyed.
 
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Douggg

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Proof to get Adam to disobey God, does not make Satan the original sinner. Satan wanted sin to enter the world, and only Adam could let sin in. There still was no sin until after Adam disobeyed.
Lying about God is not a sin? Satan is the father of lies. Sin began with Satan.

Sin entered the world from where?
 
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Timtofly

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Lying about God is not a sin? Satan is the father of lies. Sin began with Satan.

Sin entered the world from where?
From non-existence. Paul made the claim. He did not say it came from God in heaven. You think Paul would have claimed Satan instead of Adam brought sin into the world. I will stick with Paul on this.

Deception is a form of lying. Is there a verse that claims Satan lied to Eve? Is there a verse that claims Satan deceived Eve? Satan claims eating would not kill them, yet they did die physically and spiritually. People today still accept that lie. Both died physically. I accept that Satan deceived Eve. Satan did not know if they would die. Satan believed God would keep His word. Satan put all his bets on Eve and Adam.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Satan changed the death sentence to accusing God of withholding information. Both were lies based on Satan trusting God. Satan did not actually say God was withholding information. That was the implied deception.

"a tree to be desired to make one wise"

Eve accepted this lie. It would not give wisdom. It's very name was mysterious because it was the knowledge of good and evil. God even claimed God knew evil. God had already died as the Atonement for sin. God knew that Satan would decieve Eve, that Eve would convince Adam, and that Adam would disobey God, allowing sin to come into creation from nothing. It was in the very name of the tree itself.

Satan wanted to know what evil was as well. I don't know if he tried eating of tree, but if he did or had, what evil would he really know? One may conclude that Satan as the serpent had been eating, but gaining knowledge of evil in itself is not sin. The command was given to Adam and death would come only after Adam ate. One would have to speculate that Adam watched Eve die and change before him. All we were told is that Eve did eat, and she gave to Adam and he ate. Adam does not claim Eve deceived him.

"And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."

Seems he knew exactly what he did. We are never told the why. The result was:

"Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together to make themselves loincloths."

God did not lie. They died. Their eyes were opened. They saw they were now dead, and naked before God. All they could do about it was sow fig leaves together to hide their new condition.

If you claim Satan lied, you have to also claim they did actually physically die. Satan told Eve they would not die. If you claim they died much later, then Satan did not lie. Satan was not a liar until hundreds of years later when they did in fact leave their corruptible flesh. Only they did die and their soul left incorruptible bodies for corruptible bodies the second Adam ate. Coincidently that result made Satan a liar at that point. The point sin entered the world. Still sin was not a condition of Satan or the angels. It is the condition of Satan when human attributes are applied to his different physical endeavors to turn humanity against God. Satan cannot retain being a full angel and enjoy sin. Satan can only be the Adversary against Adam's flesh and blood as a spiritual being.

To be a sinner and a liar, Satan has to be something else rather than an angel. In the Garden he was the serpent, a physical being, with a physical body. Satan as the serpent, was a liar, after Adam disobeyed God and sin entered the world. He was a liar, because Adam and Eve physically and spiritually died. He claimed they would not. He did not lie, when he claimed they would be like God and know good and evil. If he told Eve knowing good and evil would make them wise, that was a lie. Wisdom was necessary to avoid living in sin and displeasing God. They started out being unwise in their new choice of clothing. Their first step in wisdom, was God chose what they would wear, proving that wisdom did not come from the fruit of the tree, as the serpent implied. Wisdom comes from God.

"Adonai, God, made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them."
 
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