What if we aren't in the End?

[Dave G.]

I remember being in the end over 40 years ago. Being told with dead certainty that "the stage is set". End time prophesy was being fulfilled before our very eyes. I had my doubts. Then over 30 years ago I found a book left on my doorstep titled 88 Reasons Why The Rapture Will Be In 1988 (on Sept 11 no less), written by someone who died 20 years ago. Then over 20 years ago... well you know.

Jesus said he would return soon, He said he went to prepare a place. That was about two days ago His time. Meanwhile He said to keep our lamps full of oil so as not to miss the groom. The analogy of course meaning be ready.

 

[adderbolt]

One thing for sure -- we are closer to the "end" today then we were yesterday.

"Come, Lord Jesus" - Revelation 22.

 

[Timtofly]

Actually, many times:

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God having come in power. "
Mk 8:38

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "
Lk 9:26-27

"...In no wise will ye have completed the cities of Israel, until the Son of man be come."
Mt 10:23

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Mt 24:34

"this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. "
Mk 13:30

"This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:22

"...Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. "
Mt 26:64

"O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? And now also the axe is laid"
Lk 3:7-9

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There are just two options, generally.

a) We can either ignore teachings of Jesus and of apostles that all is supposed to happen during their time and instead take symbolic prophecies as primary and wait for their literal physical fulfillment (possibly for ever).

b) We can take teachings of Jesus and apostles as primary and let some symbolic prophetical details unresolved (first, we live so long after the events that it is practically impossible for us to solve how these details happened, second, bible prophecies were never "step by step" details fulfilling, but always different from literal readings - they always mixed spiritual realms and physical manifestations).

Jesus never specified the first century, and taking verses out of context for one thought, cannot be applied to a totally different thought. There were 3 questions and they were not even related to each other.

The physical and spiritual are all one equal creation. Creation is all still 100% physical. Humans living bound by sin today on earth have been blinded to the spiritual part of creation, but the spiritual is no different than the physical.

The only way to be unbound from sin, and see creation 100%, is when this corruptible body dies.

 

[trophy33]

Jesus never specified the first century, and taking verses out of context for one thought, cannot be applied to a totally different thought. There were 3 questions and they were not even related to each other.

I think the context fits. Both historical (what really happened in the fist century) and literal (the context of the verses in the text).

The physical and spiritual are all one equal creation. Creation is all still 100% physical. Humans living bound by sin today on earth have been blinded to the spiritual part of creation, but the spiritual is no different than the physical.

The only way to be unbound from sin, and see creation 100%, is when this corruptible body dies.

Angels sin and they are not physical.

Not sure what you mean by "creation is 100% physical". Only a slight portion of creation is physical. BTW, "physicality" is an illusion, the basis are spiritual, even of the matter.

 

[Timtofly]

I think the context fits. Both historical (what really happened in the fist century) and literal (the context of the verses in the text).

Angels sin and they are not physical.

Not sure what you mean by "creation is 100% physical". Only a slight portion of creation is physical. BTW, "physicality" is an illusion, the basis are spiritual, even of the matter.

Satan is hardly an example of all angels. Those angels locked up in the pit "sin how?". Name one angel still in heaven who sins.

Sin is not even a physical thing as you seem to indicate spiritual is not physical, but physical is an illusion. Angels do not sin, as sin is not a thing. Angels do God's will without question.

Humans do God's will by trust. Trust is faith and obedience, and they are the only way to please God. It is not by actions, which is merely physical. The basis of reality is equally 100% physical and 100% spiritual. One has no advantage over the other.

By one man, sin entered the world and only binds Adam's descendants. All are born in sin and do sin, and are sinners, because of Adam. Sin is a spiritual condition. Sin has no special power, because each individual can choose not let sin control them. This choice is in the power of the Atonement. God's grace is sufficient to cover all sin, and it's power over us.

 

[trophy33]

Satan is hardly an example of all angels. Those angels locked up in the pit "sin how?". Name one angel still in heaven who sins.

Sin is not even a physical thing as you seem to indicate spiritual is not physical, but physical is an illusion. Angels do not sin, as sin is not a thing. Angels do God's will without question.

Humans do God's will by trust. Trust is faith and obedience, and they are the only way to please God. It is not by actions, which is merely physical. The basis of reality is equally 100% physical and 100% spiritual. One has no advantage over the other.

By one man, sin entered the world and only binds Adam's descendants. All are born in sin and do sin, and are sinners, because of Adam. Sin is a spiritual condition. Sin has no special power, because each individual can choose not let sin control them. This choice is in the power of the Atonement. God's grace is sufficient to cover all sin, and it's power over us.

If satan and other angels could fall, then it means that the root of sin is not in physical bodies.
If demons could sin and be evil, then again - its not required to have a physical body to be able to sin.

Sin is not a physical thing, sin is a moral evil.

In us, humans, many moral evils have its origin in our flesh, in our animal body, in our animal impulses (survival, sexuality, anger, emotions etc.). But its not the only source of sin.

 

[Timtofly]

If satan and other angels could fall, then it means that the root of sin is not in physical bodies.
If demons could sin and be evil, then again - its not required to have a physical body to be able to sin.

Sin is not a physical thing, sin is a moral evil.

In us, humans, many moral evils have its origin in our flesh, in our animal body, in our animal impulses (survival, sexuality, anger, emotions etc.). But its not the only source of sin.

Sin does not come from any where, and has no source. It is a condition, not a fountain with a source.

A demon is the spirit of a reprobate soul. It is the spiritual death of a soul. The body is the dead physical part of the soul. A demon is the dead spiritual part of the soul. The body and demon are still the same soul. Sin is not a moral evil. That is still making it "a thing". Moral evil is not a thing, it is an adjective describing sin. Sin is not it's own adjective.

 

[trophy33]

Sin does not come from any where, and has no source. It is a condition, not a fountain with a source.

For example, to have as many females as possible is a desire given by the evolution of the survival of the species. But in a higher human society, its immoral.
This natural inclination built into our bodies (into our brain, into our hormones etc) is, then, a source of some of our sins.

A demon is the spirit of a reprobate soul. It is the spiritual death of a soul. The body is the dead physical part of the soul. A demon is the dead spiritual part of the soul. The body and demon are still the same soul.

I have no idea what you wanted to say by this.

Sin is not a moral evil. That is still making it "a thing". Moral evil is not a thing, it is an adjective describing sin. Sin is not it's own adjective.

Sin is a term and "moral evil" is its simplistic definition for the sake of discussion.

 

[Timtofly]

For example, to have as many females as possible is a desire given by the evolution of the survival of the species. But in a higher human society, its immoral.
This natural inclination built into our bodies (into our brain, into our hormones etc) is, then, a source of some of our sins.


I have no idea what you wanted to say by this.

Sin is a term and "moral evil" is its simplistic definition for the sake of discussion.

Sin is the fallen condition of all of Adam's seed.

Moral evil describes this condition. Sin does not come from any where and does not go places. The human mind and heart is the source of sin acting out of humans themselves.

 

[trophy33]

Sin is the fallen condition of all of Adam's seed.

This definition does not work for spiritual beings who can also sin.

 

[adderbolt]

Sin is an act of aggression against the Holy God.

 

[trophy33]

Sin is an act of aggression against the Holy God.

In such a case you must broaden the definition of the word "aggression" so much, that it quickly loses its common definition.

 

[adderbolt]

In such a case you must broaden the definition of the word "aggression" so much, that it quickly loses its common definition

How about "affront"?

Sin is an affront to God's holiness.

 

[trophy33]

How about "affront"?

Sin is an affront to God's holiness.

What about cases where you do not sin with the thought "I am doing this wilfully against God"? Which is the 99% of sins - simply following natural inclinations.

 

[adderbolt]

What about cases where you do not sin with the thought "I am doing this willfully against God"? Which is the 99% of sins - simply following natural inclinations.

Jesus Christ is the King of Kings. So if he is your King then, willful or not, all sin puts you in debt. Payment (wages) for sin's debt is death ...

 

[trophy33]

Jesus Christ is the King of Kings. So if he is your King then, willful or not, all sin puts you in debt. Payment (wages) for sin's debt is death ...

There is no sin if there is no law.

 

[adderbolt]

There is no sin if there is no law.

There is always the law of your personal conscience:

"For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus" - Romans 2.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." - Romans 3.

 

[trophy33]

There is always the law of your personal conscience:

"For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus" - Romans 2.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." - Romans 3.

Thats true. But conscience is a dynamic thing, not as strict and sharp as some written rules.

 

[adderbolt]

Thats true. But conscience is a dynamic thing, not as strict and sharp as some written rules.

It's not a complicated process -- you tell one lie or experience envy or lust or steal a candy bar and thus you have sinned. And then you have incurred a debt or better put, the debt, and its payment or wages.

 

[trophy33]

It's not a complicated process -- you tell one lie or experience envy or lust or steal a candy bar and thus you have sinned. And then you have incurred a debt or better put, the debt, and its payment or wages.

We must apply a wisdom in our daily life.

Sometimes, to say a social lie is not a sin and sometimes to say truth in a wrong situation can be a sin or can lead to a violence or return painful memories.