What if Preachers Never Got Paid?

drstevej

"The crowd always chooses Barabbas."
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That you are dragging your heels on this topic is proof enough.

But post #93 comes off as you declaring that you think we're all lying to you.


Post 93 refuted a false statement.
I take it you can't document your false charge.
How something"comes off to you" is not the same as what was actually said.
 
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Der Alte

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The primary source was listed on both sites: the "They Lie In Wait To Deceive" series of books by Robert & Rosemary Brown.

Whatever that book is, it is not a primary source! A primary source would be a copy of a transcript, a signed letter by a school official, etc. Referring me to a book is not evidence. I don't intend to buy any book promoting LDS.

The Browns were at the forefront of taking Martin's challenge and turning it around on critics of the LDS faith. In that sense, they raised the ensign for an entirely new cohort of apologists*, a cohort that directly set the stage for what's happening nowadays.

It was pretty obviously identified on both sites.

*The first cohort, if you will, were the early church members themselves, who spent much of the 1800s trying to explain themselves and keep the church alive.

The second cohort came in the early 1900s. James Talmage was a geology professor before accepting a church leadership position, and so brought with him a scholar's patience and discipline. This is reflected in his writings, with many - such as Jesus The Christ (still in print 100 years later) - being as much academic treatise as apologetic. Talmage encouraged others to apply academic standards to their writings, allowing a sense of coherency and cohesion.

The third cohort was brought about a few decades later by Hugh Nibley. Nibley, who was also a professor, had actually studied theology, languages, and other relevant fields. He took the academic structure that Talmage encouraged and used it to directly address claim after claim made against the church, in the process employing his usual wit and humor to make his writing more accessible to the common person. Various individuals followed suit, doing their best to study the relevant fields directly.

The Browns gave us the fourth cohort. This cohort, based on Martin's challenge, decided to switch from "defense" to "offense". During the 1980s and early 1990s, most of the then-prominent critics of the church saw their careers go down in flames as scandal after scandal was unearthed and their credibility was torn to shreds. [Accusation without evidence ! DA]

Cohort #5 took advantage of #4's efforts by reaching for the microphone that the critics of the church had dropped in shock and shame; [Accusation without evidence ! DA] instead of simply addressing fellow apologists and those Mormons curious or concerned enough to come their way, they went out and sought for rank-and-file Mormons while beginning early conversations with key non-Mormon officials.

I'm part of #6, the group of Mormons who seized upon the internet in the early 2000s as a tool for communicating with others. Before the church even considered making use of social media, we were chatting with others online and changing opinions. I myself once got a World Net Daily reporter to about-face with a single e-mail noting the gaping flaws in his research for an article. [Unsubstantiated boast! DA]

Now we're on #7. We tested the water, and so now the church - both SLC itself and scads of Mormons all over the globe - are enjoying themselves in the pool. The Bloggernacle is alive & well, and us "old farts" from #6 are helping to make sure it stays that way.

Good for you. Do you understand the concept of credible, verifiable, historical evidence?
 
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Norah63

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I posted a couple of scriptures in post#54.
Examples of how to do the works as Jesus did, without money.
Have not been told yet why many more pastors are not doing likewise.
Have any whited-out these scriptures, so the powerless pul-pits can be comfortable.
 
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2ducklow

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saying what is credible , verifiable, and reliable is always at the very least laced with problems because mankind is not always credible, verifiable and reilaible. But some groups are more incredible, and unreliable, and unverifiable than others such as any othrodox source. Orthodox sources had a long history of changing the facts so they are even less reliable than Joe Blow's Blog. As just one example of many that I could list, there is the emfamous orthodox handling of 1 john 5.7
 
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drstevej

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I posted a couple of scriptures in post#54.
Examples of how to do the works as Jesus did, without money.
Have not been told yet why many more pastors are not doing likewise.
Have any whited-out these scriptures, so the powerless pul-pits can be comfortable.

Neither of these verses contradict 1 Tim 5:17-18. Peter was talking to a beggar and said he had no money with him. In the other text Simon was seeking to buy God's gift.

There are times when I have no cash on me. And I would not dare try to buy a spiritual gift if that were even possible. So you cite two irrelevant passages and sweep aside one that speaks to the issue.
 
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JacobLaw

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Would you consider being a preacher if they didn't get paid? If you are a preacher, would you quit if you could longer get paid for it?

Been a preaching for a long time; I don't get paid nor do I care if I do or don't, but I don't see a problem with it, I do it for the love of the word of God.
I do know Mormons look down on it though.
 
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Der Alte

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I posted a couple of scriptures in post#54.
Examples of how to do the works as Jesus did, without money.
Have not been told yet why many more pastors are not doing likewise.
Have any whited-out these scriptures, so the powerless pul-pits can be comfortable.

Do any of your scriptures command that pastors not receive a salary? Have you even bothered to read the scriptures which have been posted which show that receiving a salary as a pastor is scriptural? Which scriptures, do you think, prohibit Christians from receiving a salary as a pastor? Jesus didn't receive a salary? Jesus could take five loaves and two fish and feed 10,000-30,000 people and have 5 baskets leftover. Jesus could find His tribute money in a fish's mouth. Mortal pastors can't.
 
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Der Alte

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saying what is credible , verifiable, and reliable is always at the very least laced with problems because mankind is not always credible, verifiable and reilaible. But some groups are more incredible, and unreliable, and unverifiable than others such as any othrodox source. Orthodox sources had a long history of changing the facts so they are even less reliable than Joe Blow's Blog. [Nonsense! No evidence to support this! DA] As just one example of many that I could list, there is the emfamous orthodox handling of 1 john 5.7

There is no infamous handling of 1 John 5:7. Scholars have acknowledged for over 130 years that it was an interpolation. It only appears in the 1611 KJV. It does not appear in any modern version, e.g. the 1881 RV does not have it. I pity the person who believes everything they read online, partiicularly if their standard for credible and reliable is anything which supports their assumptions/presuppositions.
 
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Der Alte

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I do like to fish, but no coins found to date.

I have been trying for a long while but it hasn't worked for me either. Although I did find a penny in a parking lot a few days ago.
 
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Ironhold

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Good for you. Do you understand the concept of credible, verifiable, historical evidence?

Do you understand that - gasp! - you might need to crack open a book or visit a website that you don't agree with in order to get it?

What the Browns did was essentially run a background check on people; they'd look up the person's stated credentials, then research out both those credentials and the organization that supposedly gave out those credentials. That's why their findings are given such credence.

A lot of people in the counter-cult movement hang their hat on their credentials and/or their "experiences" as a member of such-and-such movement, and so if that peg is taken down then they themselves wind up getting taken down as well.
 
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Phantasman

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Have you even bothered to read the scriptures which have been posted which show that receiving a salary as a pastor is scriptural? Which scriptures, do you think, prohibit Christians from receiving a salary as a pastor? Jesus didn't receive a salary? Jesus could take five loaves and two fish and feed 10,000-30,000 people and have 5 baskets leftover. Jesus could find His tribute money in a fish's mouth. Mortal pastors can't.

Since Christ didn't literally tell the disciples to collect a salary, I guess someone had to write Timothy to make us see it.
 
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Der Alte

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Do you understand that - gasp! - you might need to crack open a book or visit a website that you don't agree with in order to get it?

Gasp! I have cracked open more books/websites that do not agree with me, than you have. As I thought, you don't understand the concept of credible, verifiable, historical evidence. You seem to think that it consists of any book or website that disagrees with me and supports your assumptions/presuppositions. Before you criticize someone for what you think they haven't done, you'd better produce evidence that you are not guilty of the same thing. Where is that evidence?

What the Browns did was essentially run a background check on people; they'd look up the person's stated credentials, then research out both those credentials and the organization that supposedly gave out those credentials. That's why their findings are given such credence.

What the Browns claim to have done is "essentially run a background check on people" I described what I consider credible, verifiable evidence, i.e. photo copies of transcripts/diplomas, signed letters from colleges, etc. What are the Browns' qualifications, what kind of evidence did they provide in their book? By evidence I don't mean "We called the director of admissions at X school and they told us, blah, blah, blah." I doubt that any school would give out infomation about their students without a court order.

A lot of people in the counter-cult movement hang their hat on their credentials and/or their "experiences" as a member of such-and-such movement, and so if that peg is taken down then they themselves wind up getting taken down as well.

Right! I consult lawyers who have "credentials", who graduated from accredited law schools, who are members of the ABA, I consult doctors who have "credentials", who graduated from accredited medical schools, and are members of the AMA, etc. I do not look for medical or legal advice on random blogs, or amateurish books, which have not been reviewed by any professional in any field. When you present credible, verifiable, historical evidence I will consider it. If you can't post the evidence here, you ain't got none! I will not go buy a fly by night book to verify what you claim.
 
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A New Dawn

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Since Christ didn't literally tell the disciples to collect a salary, I guess someone had to write Timothy to make us see it.

Christ told the disciples to not take a purse. That means that Christ expected his followers to support the people He sends out in His name. Times are different now, and very few people like to invite strangers into their house. That doesn't change what God expects from his followers. What part of that is confusing?
 
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drstevej

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III John 5-7 addresses the issue as well....

Beloved, you are acting faithfully in whatever you accomplish for the brethren, and especially when they are strangers; and they have testified to your love before the church. You will do well to send them on their way in a manner worthy of God. For they went out for the sake of the Name, accepting nothing from the Gentiles. Therefore we ought to support such men, so that we may be fellow workers with the truth.

Ruh Roh, another text that deflates the don't give them nothing position.

And THIS time John is the culprit not Paul!
 
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Der Alte

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Since Christ didn't literally tell the disciples to collect a salary, I guess someone had to write Timothy to make us see it.

Where did Christ tell the discples not to take a salary? Why don't you dig into into your Bible, the NHL, and find that for us? The priests in the OT were compensated, their counterparts in the NT were also entitled to be compensated.
 
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Phantasman

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Christ told the disciples to not take a purse. That means that Christ expected his followers to support the people He sends out in His name. Times are different now, and very few people like to invite strangers into their house. That doesn't change what God expects from his followers. What part of that is confusing?

Or that, through their faith, they would be taken care of by the Father, who even clothes and feeds the birds. Mammon is possessions, which I see as the disciples not having.

Money is a means to an end. I'm sure the Father provided the end.
 
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drstevej

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Or that, through their faith, they would be taken care of by the Father, who even clothes and feeds the birds. Mammon is possessions, which I see as the disciples not having.

Money is a means to an end. I'm sure the Father provided the end.

Therefore we ought to support such men, so that we may be fellow workers with the truth. -- The Apostle John
 
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Der Alte

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III John 5-7 addresses the issue as well....

Beloved, you are acting faithfully in whatever you accomplish for the brethren, and especially when they are strangers; and they have testified to your love before the church. You will do well to send them on their way in a manner worthy of God. For they went out for the sake of the Name, accepting nothing from the Gentiles. Therefore we ought to support such men, so that we may be fellow workers with the truth.

Ruh Roh, another text that deflates the don't give them nothing position.

And THIS time John is the culprit not Paul!

This bears repeating. Ruh Roh indeed.
 
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Phantasman

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Where did Christ tell the discples not to take a salary? Why don't you dig into into your Bible, the NHL, and find that for us? The priests in the OT were compensated, their counterparts in the NT were also entitled to be compensated.

Where does Christ say to take money? Wheres your documentation? Your scripture from Christ?

The priests were "robbers and thieves" as I showed you in John 8. They killed the one who was destroying their "nest egg".

YOUR Bible is the sources of money for truth. Not the NHL. Or the Gospel.
 
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