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What if Preachers Never Got Paid?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LegacyJB, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Instead of throwing out-of-context snippets at me I suggest you study to learn what you are talking about. The word "Catholic" is derived from two Greek words, Kata, according to and Holos, whole. According to the whole, i.e. the whole church. Now if you want some relevant facts look up Pope Gregory VII. If you do your own searching instead of copy/pasting antiChristian rhetoric from anonymous website you will find as I said. There was no Catholic church with a pope in Rome at its head, until 1375 when Hildebrand, the bishop of Rome unilaterally usurped authority over the Kata Holos church. He issued 27 Dictatus Papae, Papal Dictates, dictating that he was the head of the church.

    I would learn just as much reading Ben Hur.It is just as authoritative as the NHL. What may be "obvious" to you is not evidence. It is obvious to Mormons that the BOM was sent down from heaven to Joseph Smith. It was obvious to his followers that David Koresh was the messiah.

    Yeah right you are so much superior to all us common folk because you study independently. Should I kiss your ring? Would you consult a self taught doctor or lawyer? Do you think that people who study under teachers and professors leave their brains at the door when they go in? Students in uiniversities and seminaries are encouraged to study for themselves and offer different views. They are not robots blindly accepting everything a professor or teacher says. Many students disagree with their professors vocally and in writing.
     
  2. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    I already noted elsewhere the scandal concerning the "Reverend" Walter Martin, the man behind much of the modern counter-cult movement.

    Back in the late 1970s / early 1980s, Martin told his audience that individual "cultists" were essentially fair game, such that they should be investigated alongside the "cults" they follow.

    In response, Martin soon found himself being investigated.

    He was found to be wanting.

    His religious ordination? The ordaining body nullified his ordination after he broke a promise to them; his ordination came about because the body granted him an exception, and he violated the terms of the exception. There was no definitive proof that his ordination was ever re-instated.

    His academic credentials? His doctoral degree came from a diploma mill. Ironically enough, his master's degree was legitimate.

    To real academics, his phony degree and his questionable ordination undermined his works, resulting in him spending the final years of his life trying to defend himself.

    But to his army of sycophantic followers, Martin is just left of Jesus himself. His "Kingdom of the Cults" is still in print several decades after it first appeared, and his organization still has a whole slew of people backing it up. So while he might have died a dishonest man, he died a rich and powerful dishonest man.
     
  3. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    That's for sure. On my final for a doctoral level biblical theology paper Dr Gaffin wrote, "While I do not share your conclusions I am well satisfied with your ability to present them well. Grade = A" The question was to trace Jesus' teaching on the kingdom. The prof is a covenant theologian and I am a dispensationalist.
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I'm impressed by all the evidence you provided. Wait no, that was another poster in a different thread. We are expected to swallow all this without any evidence? OBTW nobody is rich and powerful when they are dead.
     
  5. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    That's ONE (1) {uno}. You said "likely" that's 50% plus. List 25 more.
     
  6. High Fidelity

    High Fidelity Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I heard that a lot of Pastors in the North America make a lot of money.

    Can anybody with experience tell me the average salary?

    Here it's about 20k USD a year and typically a place to stay.

    Seems quite worrying if the numbers I saw were legitimate.
     
  7. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Depends on many factors. This is a good guide which breaks it down based on the key factors (ex. cost of living for the area):

    [​IMG]
     
  8. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Reference please. Do any sing Praise to the Man and substitute Walter?
     
  9. Lollerskates

    Lollerskates Junior Member

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    Yes I really said that. Why would a holy man live in a modern city full of debauchery, evil, restlessness and other things just waiting to tempt him and everyone else in the city? That is tempting one's self. Did I say people in the city do not deserve to be saved? No. Is that how you erroneously interpreted the context of my post? Yes. I wasn't even talking about salvation; I was talking about the occupation and calling of preaching. As I said before, preachers can always be sent by their flock, or on their own by faith in God, to go to cities or remote areas to minister WITHOUT Gulfstream jets. The current Church culture has made the members WEAK. Temptation and sin is no joke. Spiritual assault and activity is no joke. But, instead of helping victims of these things (people ignorant of these things are victims unknowingly,) the Church and leaders scoff at most of these very serious things. Most diet even teach aboutthe spiritual war all of us are in. But, hearing that loving Jesus will saving you sure feels good to hear, rather than hearing about the political and economic ramifications proceeding and proceeding Antichrist. Now, that is sad - a bunch of wide eyed SHEEP that don't even know where they are because their shepherd (preacher) didn show them the way.

    So, save your pity for where it matters; don't waste it on what you think is a flawed mentality of mine.



    As I said before, save your pity for the Church. I don't have high standards that are unreasonable for any creature with a fallen nature. (Side note: will this exchange just be me refuting erroneous claims about me and my thinking by you? If so, we can stop at any time.)

    Actually, I may sound fiery but that is because we are on the precipice of what our patriarchs have been told for millennia, and all we can do is exactly what we are not supposed to do: be involved in the world and its affairs. Many Christians don't know WHY the Nicean creed was forged, the implications at the time, and why it is or isn't imporan today. Many Christians will trust a man over what God explicitly says, because of the culture of ignorant or unlearned pastors. That is not a judgment, it is a wake up call for people. Do you want to be marrying and partying when you hear the last trump, or do you want to pay attention to all signs no matter how uncomfortable, and be mildly surprised when Christ returns? The church has gotten lazy, we have forgotten our history and culture, where we came from, and how serious this life is in terms of spiritual war. We are at war; you do not brief your soldier on gumdrops and lollipops. You brief them on the nitty gritty. The Church as an ecumenical entity is NOT doing that. That is real sadness.

    For some reason many of you turn offense into hyperbole. If you are offended because you think I am trying to say all ministers should be perfect, then say that. But, don't tell me what I think, how I feel - especially if I didn't explicitly say or allude to that. I am going to blow off your ad hominem until you can show me where I said the things you accused me of. You have no idea of how much compassion, anger, happiness, or judgment I am capable, because you are not me and I have t told you. Now, if you just vehemently disagree with me that is fine. No need for emotional theatrics.

    It's funny because you have to ask if I really said something EXPLICITLY, but somehow you IMPLICITLY know my thought process and feelings.
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I can only speak for my denomination which has about 50,000 churches, 30% of the pastors are bivocational. That is they have a full time secular job and pastor a church full time. That does not sound like they are getting rich.
     
  11. A New Dawn

    A New Dawn God is bigger than the boogeyman!

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    1. And so are pastors of a church. It is a 24/7 job, as drstevej already pointed out.

    2. It doesn't matter. As long as they are accepting any money from the congregation, according to Legacy here, they are mooching off them.
     
  12. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    SHIELDS page on Martin which references the work that discovered his false credentials

    FAIR essay in which his academic credentials are examined at length.

    So yeah - Martin was one of those ministers who get phony degrees and go out to make a name for themselves.
     
  13. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I clicked both your links, and 2 embedded links, I did not see one piece of original evidence. "This guy said this, that guy said that." "Somebody, allegedly, did some checking and found this." Show me some primary sources, not 2d and 3d hand quotes.
     
  14. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    Moving the goal posts much?

    You refused to admit that any existed, and now that I've shown you one you're demanding more.


    But if you want more examples -

    *Bill Schnobelen contradicts his own personal timeline and level of religious education with practically every book he writes; if you think JS is fake because of issues with the First Vision, then you're bound to rule him out as well.

    *D. J. Nelson's degree also came from a diploma mill.

    *Alberto Rivera's claims to have been a Jesuit priest have been roundly denied by the Vatican, and in fact Rivera was later found to have outstanding arrest warrants for fraud in the US and in Spain.

    *John Todd was found to have severe mental issues, and is believed to have made up most of his "back story" involving his escape from the occult. He would later spend several years in jail for a series of sexual offenses.

    *Rebecca Brown was found to have been lying about her past and her efforts to help people escape the occult; her medical license was later suspended for grievous misconduct after she was found to have deliberately misdiagnosed several patients in order to prove her thesis.

    *Matt Slick once admitted that his application for ordination was rejected, yet he still maintains what is essentially a ministry anyway.

    *Loftes Tryk hid the fact that he was a convicted sex offender from his readers; rather than admit that he was excommunicated for his crimes, Tryk presented himself as someone who had "found the faith" elsewhere.

    *J. Edward Decker (I do believe I linked to the article elsewhere) found himself staring down excommunication for adultery, yet like Tryk claimed that he "found the faith" elsewhere.

    So that's how many examples now?
     
  15. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    A guy like that might try a glass looking ruse some day or claim a funery notice is a Patriarchial writing.

    You now have listed 1 ONE una example of what you said was likely true of non-LDS pastors. Keep going or hope the request will scroll off the page.
     
  16. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    I know Matt. His ministry does not require any ordination. The creator of this website was not ordained either. So this one is bunk.

    Adultery is quite serious and not defensible. You might consider that when excusing Joseph Smith's conduct.

    Keep going... you have a long way to go to show your statement was not exaggeration.
     
  17. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Show the post or retract.
     
  18. 2ducklow

    2ducklow angel duck

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    If a church thought so little of a preacher or pastor as to not pay him , then I'd either quit and get a job that paid me so I could live, or I'd go to a church that was willing to pay me for my pastorial/preacher duties. A preacher needs money to live. God doesn't want his servants begging on the street corner. Can you image a preacher preaching and tending to his flock 40 to 60 hours a week and not getting paid for it? what's he suppose to do go and sit on a street corner and beg for food and money the rest of his waking hours.

    Any church that would do that to their pastor is no church I want to go to.
     
  19. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    The primary source was listed on both sites: the "They Lie In Wait To Deceive" series of books by Robert & Rosemary Brown.

    The Browns were at the forefront of taking Martin's challenge and turning it around on critics of the LDS faith. In that sense, they raised the ensign for an entirely new cohort of apologists*, a cohort that directly set the stage for what's happening nowadays.

    It was pretty obviously identified on both sites.



    *The first cohort, if you will, were the early church members themselves, who spent much of the 1800s trying to explain themselves and keep the church alive.

    The second cohort came in the early 1900s. James Talmage was a geology professor before accepting a church leadership position, and so brought with him a scholar's patience and discipline. This is reflected in his writings, with many - such as Jesus The Christ (still in print 100 years later) - being as much academic treatise as apologetic. Talmage encouraged others to apply academic standards to their writings, allowing a sense of coherency and cohesion.

    The third cohort was brought about a few decades later by Hugh Nibley. Nibley, who was also a professor, had actually studied theology, languages, and other relevant fields. He took the academic structure that Talmage encouraged and used it to directly address claim after claim made against the church, in the process employing his usual wit and humor to make his writing more accessible to the common person. Various individuals followed suit, doing their best to study the relevant fields directly.

    The Browns gave us the fourth cohort. This cohort, based on Martin's challenge, decided to switch from "defense" to "offense". During the 1980s and early 1990s, most of the then-prominent critics of the church saw their careers go down in flames as scandal after scandal was unearthed and their credibility was torn to shreds.

    Cohort #5 took advantage of #4's efforts by reaching for the microphone that the critics of the church had dropped in shock and shame; instead of simply addressing fellow apologists and those Mormons curious or concerned enough to come their way, they went out and sought for rank-and-file Mormons while beginning early conversations with key non-Mormon officials.

    I'm part of #6, the group of Mormons who seized upon the internet in the early 2000s as a tool for communicating with others. Before the church even considered making use of social media, we were chatting with others online and changing opinions. I myself once got a World Net Daily reporter to about-face with a single e-mail noting the gaping flaws in his research for an article.

    Now we're on #7. We tested the water, and so now the church - both SLC itself and scads of Mormons all over the globe - are enjoying themselves in the pool. The Bloggernacle is alive & well, and us "old farts" from #6 are helping to make sure it stays that way.
     
  20. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    That you are dragging your heels on this topic is proof enough.

    But post #93 comes off as you declaring that you think we're all lying to you.
     
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