• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.

What if Preachers Never Got Paid?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LegacyJB, Mar 14, 2014.

  1. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

    +200
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    Bless your vision.

    Christ would never feel that his church would die without money, IMO. It's the difference between spiritual (teachings) and mammon. Through mammon a church has evolved, though.

    When Christ sent his disciples he said take nothing with them (except clothes and stave). He knew the Father would take care of them.

    Rather than sending people out, a costly bus brings them in. Because they all have to listen to the "one man" (more than likely paid).

    If Christ is with two or more gathered in his name, there is no doubt then if 1000 or more are gathered, right? A lot depends on the "one man", IMO.
     
  2. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

    +23,448
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    1 Timothy 5:17-18 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages."
     
  3. BelCantoBaptist

    BelCantoBaptist Newbie

    310
    +17
    Baptist
    Engaged
    US-Libertarian

    I can't as I am not a preacher. My elders have commented that I should go into ministry, but I am still sussing that out for myself.

    But even if I were a minister and never received a paycheck I would preach and pastor a flock. For as Paul said "Woe is me if I do not preach the Gospel."
     
  4. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

    +200
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    Which is why many scholars believe the pastorals were written by someone else after Paul died. (dated 100-150 AD)

    The letters as reflecting the characteristics of emergent Catholocism. The arguments presented above are forceful, but a last consideration is overwhelming, namely that, together with 2 Peter, the Pastorals are of all the texts in the New Testament the most distinctive representatives of the emphases of emergent Catholocism. The apostle Paul could no more have written the Pastorals than the apostle Peter could have written 2 Peter. -
    Norman Perrin, An Introduction to the New Testament
     
  5. LegacyJB

    LegacyJB Soldier in God's Army

    754
    +2
    Christian
    Single
    Prostitution?
     
  6. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

    +23,448
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    Norman Perrin taught at Candler School of Theology (Emory). I attended this school for a semester. It was a liberal cesspool. There was little of the Bible when the Candler profs got through redacting it. They had less respect for the text than Joseph Smith.
     
  7. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,338
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    Logical fallacy, appeal to anonymous popularity. Many people/scholars, Everybody knows, It's a known fact, etc.

    I'd bet that Norman Perrin is a staunch anti-Catholic. The unsupported opinion of one scholar does not a consensus make.
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,338
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    You are correct about Christ but the rest is nonsense!

    Christ did say not to take anything but their clothes and staves, but He did not say not to accept anything from the people.

    Thank you for your unsolicited opinion. Have you ever heard of "small groups?" As for paid ministry seems to me that the priests/priestly class received compensation in the form of tithes. As Dr. Steve has posted above,

    1 Timothy 5:17-18 The elders who rule well are to be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, "YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and "The laborer is worthy of his wages." ​

    Note Paul is quoting from the O.T., Deut 25:4, and Jesus, Luke 10:7. But lets not let scripture interfere with one's assumptions/presuppositions.

    In all the churches that I have been associated with over the last few decades, 3 states, 2 countries, none relied/depended on "the one man."
     
  9. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

    +200
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    See what you want.

    When someone asks what your profession is, what do you say?

    (Profession-1.a paid occupation, esp. one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.)

    One doesn't "train" another in truth, IMO.
     
  10. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

    +1,110
    Mormon
    Single
    You do realize that the church also has desk jockeys working for it full-time, right?

    The admin people draw a salary, as do any janitors, building maintenance people, and others who are considered to be officially "employed" by the church.

    That has to be factored in.


    As far as the church leaders go, their stipends (et al) are due to their being on the job 24 / 7, thus leaving them unable to hold a regular job.

    As it is, a lot of the church authorities have left high-paying jobs in order to take the leadership position (for example, Dieter F. Uchtdorf was a vice president for Lufthansa), so if money was the issue then this would make no sense.
     
  11. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

    +23,448
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    Retired. But my ordination says "minister of the gospel" and I have 8 years graduate training.

    You exclude the Great Commission too?

     
  12. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

    +200
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    This is the second time you said this to me.

    Do I need to remain silent until you solicit me? Should I raise my hand?
     
  13. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

    +1,110
    Mormon
    Single
    The bulk of this land is farm and ranch land that the church uses for its welfare system. It takes a lot of land to maintain a cattle ranch, and even with modern farming techniques you still need a good chunk of land to get a decent-sized yield going.

    For obvious reasons, it's rare for critics of the church to go into details about why the church owns so much land.

    The top leadership are required to be on the job 24/7, leaving them unable to actually hold a day job.

    As it is, what they make in this position is far less than what many of them were making before taking the spot. In that sense, they took a massive pay cut to take the job.

    Remember what you said about the church's books not being open?

    Couple this with the fact that the church doesn't normally brag about its efforts, and the end result is that external observers - most of them critics of the church - tend to under-estimate how much the church gets done compared to its size.
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,338
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    No! Provide evidence.
     
  15. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

    +200
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    So, Christ has a University. Did you have to pay for this "knowledge" to "minister"?

    (But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.-Acts)
     
  16. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

    +23,448
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    US-Republican
    I did not say this.

    This was my choice. And my grandmother gave me the money. I never asked her, she just slipped a check under my napkin for the entire amount.

    I do not think the gift of God can be purchased, so this is not germane to our discussion. It does fit the working to make it to heaven crown.
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

    +2,338
    United States
    Baptist
    Married
    How is the quote about Simon the sorcerer attempting to buy the power of the Holy Spirit relevant to this thread?
     
  18. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

    +1,110
    Mormon
    Single
    From Bel's website:

    The reason why no tithing money is used is because it ensures that 100% of the money that is donated goes to the operation and upkeep of the church.

    In other words, this is at best a ballpark number and so could easily be way off from what is actually present.

    For example, under the "utilities" it says that they took an "annual average". How was this average compiled?

    They also presume a maid and gardener. Bwah? On what basis do they make that assumption?

    They also presume things like dance & piano lessons, also raising questions as to what the basis is for that.

    $200 a month for "modest" gifts? What?!

    As an MBA, I'm just looking at their "estimation" and praying to God that these people aren't involved in the world of finance.

    My mind is blown at how terrible their "attempt" is and how far removed from reality it likely well is.
     
  19. BelCantoBaptist

    BelCantoBaptist Newbie

    310
    +17
    Baptist
    Engaged
    US-Libertarian

    Way to completely take that passage out of context :thumbsup:
     
  20. Phantasman

    Phantasman Newbie

    +200
    Christian Seeker
    Married
    You and your evidence. I refuse to be your search puppet any longer.

    You refute evidence and documentation except what you choose to see and believe.
     
Loading...