What if: Many Are Called (Free Will), Few Are Chosen (Predestined).

[redleghunter]

It's funny that people can reduce God to a mere fortune teller. There's a big difference between, knowing the future and bringing it to pass.

A Sovereign God does not fit the post modern society with its victim class mentality.

It’s not something new. In the latter part of the 19th century Liberal theology of the Tubingen school infected the churches of continental Europe and what Spurgeon called the Downgrade in the UK.

An interesting article at the link below the introduction:

In that first article, Shindler recounted the history of the major protestant denominations in England since the beginning of Puritanism's decline in 1662. He noted that in the first generation after the Puritan era, virtually every non-conformist (non-Anglican Protestant) denomination in England drifted from orthodoxy toward an ancient form of theological liberalism called Socinianism. Shindler recounted how hundreds of post-Puritan churches had abandoned sound doctrine in favor of rationalistic skepticism, Unitarianism, and other liberal beliefs. The downward slide usually began slowly, almost imperceptibly. He suggested that denominations often "got on the down-grade" when they abandoned Calvinism (which emphasizes God's sovereignty in salvation) in favor of Arminianism (which makes human will the decisive factor). Other groups embraced Arianism (which denies the full deity of Christ). Still others simply became enamored with scholarship and worldly wisdom; consequently they lost their zeal for truth.

More here:

Spurgeon and the Down-Grade Controversy

The Down Grade Controversy | The Reformed Reader

 

[martymonster]

You are really really twisting my concept. You know what I mean when I use this analogy. A little common sense. Do I seriously have to explain what I mean in better detail? Because you are completely missing my point, and completely wrong with where I was going with that.

If you wouldn't mind?

 

[RDKirk]

It's funny that people can reduce God to a mere fortune teller. There's a big difference between, knowing the future and bringing it to pass.

Aparently it takes specific action by the Father to enable a person even to accept Jesus, and apparently not all people are enabled.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them...
....
He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. -- John 6

Now, what do I make of that?

I apply it to the task the Lord has set for me.

It's like that joke:

Guy: "Do I have any chance with you?"
Girl: "Only one in a million!"
Guy: "Then I have a chance!"

The fact that some people have been enabled--even though I don't know who they are--guarantees that my witness will not be in vain, as long as I go where the Holy Spirit directs and say what the Holy Spirit directs. It may be one in a million, but he's out there...guaranteed.

Back in the 70s, there was a book called "How to Meet Women" that was followed up by another book "How to Meet Men." In the chapter of the latter book on "Where to Meet Men," it said simply, "Buy the book 'How to Meet Women,' read the chapter telling men where to meet women...and go there."

We can't discern who is enabled, we're only told that they're out there--and they don't even know they are enabled. But the Holy Spirit does, and if we go where He says go and say what He says to say, we will connect with those enabled people.

 

[martymonster]

A Sovereign God does not fit the post modern society with its victim class mentality.

It’s not something new. In the latter part of the 19th century Liberal theology of the Tubingen school infected the churches of continental Europe and what Spurgeon called the Downgrade in the UK.

An interesting article at the link below the introduction:

In that first article, Shindler recounted the history of the major protestant denominations in England since the beginning of Puritanism's decline in 1662. He noted that in the first generation after the Puritan era, virtually every non-conformist (non-Anglican Protestant) denomination in England drifted from orthodoxy toward an ancient form of theological liberalism called Socinianism. Shindler recounted how hundreds of post-Puritan churches had abandoned sound doctrine in favor of rationalistic skepticism, Unitarianism, and other liberal beliefs. The downward slide usually began slowly, almost imperceptibly. He suggested that denominations often "got on the down-grade" when they abandoned Calvinism (which emphasizes God's sovereignty in salvation) in favor of Arminianism (which makes human will the decisive factor). Other groups embraced Arianism (which denies the full deity of Christ). Still others simply became enamored with scholarship and worldly wisdom; consequently they lost their zeal for truth.

More here:

Spurgeon and the Down-Grade Controversy

The Down Grade Controversy | The Reformed Reader

One certainly doesn't have to be a Calvinist to believe very strongly in God's sovereignty. I am certainly not a Calvinist, in fact, I'm quite the opposite. One only has to believe the scriptures, to believe in God's complete sovereignty.

 

[redleghunter]

. I am certainly not a Calvinist

 

[martymonster]

Aparently it takes specific action by the Father to enable a person even to accept Jesus, and apparently not all people are enabled.

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them...
....
He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. -- John 6

Now, what do I make of that?

I apply it to the task the Lord has set for me.

It's like that joke:

Guy: "Do I have any chance with you?"
Girl: "Only one in a million!"
Guy: "Then I have a chance!"

The fact that some people have been enabled--even though I don't know who they are--guarantees that my witness will not be in vain, as long as I go where the Holy Spirit directs and say what the Holy Spirit directs. It may be one in a million, but he's out there...guaranteed.

Back in the 70s, there was a book called "How to Meet Women" that was followed up by another book "How to Meet Men." In the chapter of the latter book on "Where to Meet Men," it said simply, "Buy the book 'How to Meet Women,' read the chapter telling men where to meet women...and go there."

We can't discern who is enabled, we're only told that they're out there--and they don't even know their enabled. But the Holy Spirit does, and if we go where He says go and say what He says to say, we will connect with those enabled people.

The truth of the matter is, the Father has chosen his first fruits, before creation, for the purpose of bringing in the rest of humanity (the rest of the harvest) If you don't qualify to be in the first resurrection, then you were never going to be in the first resurrection, but if you aren't, then you shall be saved anyway, as by fire.

 

[martymonster]

View attachment 247912

LOL! No I won't. The Gospel is so much more glorious, than any man made doctrine.

 

[RDKirk]

The truth of the matter is, the Father has chosen his first fruits, before creation, for the purpose of bringing in the rest of humanity (the rest of the harvest) If you don't qualify to be in the first resurrection, then you were never going to be in the first resurrection, but if you aren't, then you shall be saved anyway, as by fire.

Important for me: I don't care. I don't worry about who or why, why this person and not that person. I don't care about the Lord's methodology.

I care about doing what I'm told to do and finishing a day having done all that I was told to do.

I'm former active duty Air Force. In my current company, I was working with another team lead who was a former active duty Marine. We had both been called to meet with our director for a new project.

She spend about 15 minutes of discussion which I recognized was getting our "buy in" (because I've been a manager too, and I've taken those courses) before getting to what she wanted us to do.

When we left the meeting, the other team lead--the Marine--said to me, "That meeting could have been 15 minutes shorter." I looked at him and nodded.

She didn't need our "buy in." She only needed to tell us what she wanted done.

 

[Eric Abbott]

If you wouldn't mind?

Sure.
God KNEW before you and I were born, that you would want an explanation to this. He did not FORCE you to ask me for an explanation, you did it on your own free will. However, God knew the time, date, and has already seen it happen as if it already happened. He's already lived it being outside of time.

You cannot hide anything from Him, you cannot surprise Him in any way.

He knew I would be typing this out right now, he is not forcing me too, I am making my free will decision to reply to you.
He KNEW I would before I was even born as well.

he also knows that within 2 minutes from now I will be in bed sleeping. Its late!

have a great night brother

 

[martymonster]

Sure.
God KNEW before you and I were born, that you would want an explanation to this. He did not FORCE you to ask me for an explanation, you did it on your own free will. However, God knew the time, date, and has already seen it happen as if it already happened. He's already lived it being outside of time.

You cannot hide anything from Him, you cannot surprise Him in any way.

He knew I would be typing this out right now, he is not forcing me too, I am making my free will decision to reply to you.
He KNEW I would before I was even born as well.

he also knows that within 2 minutes from now I will be in bed sleeping. Its late!

have a great night brother

OK, so how would you reconcile what you just told me, with this verse here?

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

It's almost sounds as if he is, working all things after the counsel of his own will, but maybe I'm reading it wrong?

What about this verse?


Gen 50:18 And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants.
Gen 50:19 And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God?
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

Forgive me brother, but it does appear that Christ is saying in this verse, that he meant Joseph's brother's evil for good, and not just that he knew about it in advance. Once again though, I could be wrong here, but that's how it certainly looks from here.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

When you are filled with the Holy Spirit and walking in God's will what are you?

Read Jeremiah 3:14

We have a part in that, our part is sharing the Gospel with the one and the two...

Why?

Read 2 Corinthians 5:20 for the answer

We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

So, then you agree that some will be chosen and others will come by choosing to believe, right?

 

[Hazelelponi]

So, then you agree that some will be chosen and others will come by choosing to believe, right?

No. Absolutely not.

All who come to a saving belief/faith were chosen by God.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Think what you like, Lot was scrambling to avert disaster. I doubt seriously the angels were in jeopardy, but the men of Sodom definitely were. The angels dragged Lot back in as he tried to reason with those guys, guess they were not listening so good.

if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. (2 Peter 7-9)
​

A righteous man offers his virgin daughters to the wicked. Got to wonder what he was thinking.

2 Pet 7-9 is true and doesn't change what I said before. Lot was displaying the behaviors that got him saved. He was protecting the visitors. He is waiting at the gate of the city for a reason. He offers his daughters for a reason, in this particular situation.
Though he was distressed by the lawless and living among them daily, according to the verse you offered above, there is no record of him ever offering his virgin daughters in exchange for other visitors to the city. And if he had, they wouldn't have been virgins at this event.

Abraham didn't bargain for the wicked. He bargained with God for the sake of the righteous. In Revelation 6:9, there are a whole bunch of souls under the altar who were slain for the Word of God and for the testimony they held. They aren't asking God to spare the wicked. They are asking God to judge and avenge their blood. God didn't correct their wrong thinking. God told them to wait until the rest of their fellow servants and brethren that will be killed as they were, are in the fold. The idea that Lot would protect those who hated him at the expense of his daughters is not supported by Scripture.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Fascinating!!!

I do like this idea very much and it would help to explain how and why G-d might choose to use multiple fulfillments of Ezekiel chapter 37 to set in motion multiple time lines......... within many of which so much of the Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh that people who did not repent in other time lines....... are led to salvation in those time lines where lots of the Holy Spirit / living waters are flowing!


Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.

It also better explains why we see a slew of verses that support being chosen and a slew of verses that support being called and the decision left to man. It is also possible, like Ezekiel 3, that "the chosen" are expected to be "the call" of the Gospel that the choosers hear.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

No. Absolutely not.

All who come to a saving belief/faith were chosen by God.

You can emphatically state that, because that is what you believe. Just like people fly planes into buildings or cut themselves because they emphatically believe something. But, Scripture does not support only chosen. Scripture supports two tracks whether you like it (and want to believe it) or not.

 

[Hazelelponi]

You can emphatically state that, because that is what you believe. Just like people fly planes into buildings or cut themselves because they emphatically believe something. But, Scripture does not support only chosen. Scripture supports two tracks whether you like it (and want to believe it) or not.

No because saving faith/belief comes from God alone. It's the gift of God (so that no man can boast)

Belief is the requirement but scripture says God gives us that. I believe the scriptures because I lived them out in my own life.

You may think you came to faith on your own, but God brought you.. you just didn't need the spiritual frying pan upside your head, but that doesn't mean God didn't open your heart to understanding so that you could believe..

Do you know why Jesus taught in parables? Mark 4:11-12 tells you.

God draws his own to Him.. At their own pace, and in a manner they can best understand... God uses us to be sowers of seed, fishers of men, ambassadors of Christ, (not because He needs us but because we need to be needed) but outside the Will of God we are doing nothing but throwing pearls before swine..

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

There are God's promises in the Bible that clearly state that if we come to Christ sincerely and honestly, He will not cast us away.

Every person in the world is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, but not all take advantage of it. God is not willing that any should perish but that all may come to repentance, but not all will take up the offer of salvation through Christ.

Election is a mystery because we know that every person who honestly and sincerely accepts Christ as Saviour, turns from the world, flesh and the devil, is saved, and then discovered that he or she was actually elected to salvation.

It is not actually up to us to say who is elected and who is not. We don't have enough information to know. God knows the hearts. We can only look on the outward appearance.

We can look on a person who does not appear to have any interest in religion, and determine by appearances that he is not the type to believe the gospel and accept Christ, so many believers would not try to give him the gospel. Then one believer comes along, gives him the benefit of the doubt, shares the gospel, leads the person to Christ, and that person becomes a committed Christ for the rest of his life.

Some potential converts may, in fact, be lost because Christians, by look at outward appearances, will assume that the person is not elected because he or she doesn't look like the type who would come to Christ. Whose fault is that? God's? Not likely! It is the fault of the faithless unbelieving Christian who couldn't be bothered seeking God to find out what the Holy Spirit has to say about the person.

Do you have a verse that specifically says that people choose Him and then are considered retrospectively considered chosen, as you seem to have said above?

"He came to His own, and His own received Him not. But, as many as received Him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His Name which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

So, "His own" did not receive Him--implying they had a choice and chose against Him. But, as many as received Him--implying they have the same choice and chose for Him.

Why include belief at all if the only thing that matters is being chosen? Truly chosen can't "not believe".

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

There are God's promises in the Bible that clearly state that if we come to Christ sincerely and honestly, He will not cast us away.

Every person in the world is predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, but not all take advantage of it. God is not willing that any should perish but that all may come to repentance, but not all will take up the offer of salvation through Christ.

Election is a mystery because we know that every person who honestly and sincerely accepts Christ as Saviour, turns from the world, flesh and the devil, is saved, and then discovered that he or she was actually elected to salvation.

It is not actually up to us to say who is elected and who is not. We don't have enough information to know. God knows the hearts. We can only look on the outward appearance.

We can look on a person who does not appear to have any interest in religion, and determine by appearances that he is not the type to believe the gospel and accept Christ, so many believers would not try to give him the gospel. Then one believer comes along, gives him the benefit of the doubt, shares the gospel, leads the person to Christ, and that person becomes a committed Christ for the rest of his life.

Some potential converts may, in fact, be lost because Christians, by look at outward appearances, will assume that the person is not elected because he or she doesn't look like the type who would come to Christ. Whose fault is that? God's? Not likely! It is the fault of the faithless unbelieving Christian who couldn't be bothered seeking God to find out what the Holy Spirit has to say about the person.

If chosen is the only possibility, then chosen cannot be lost or God is inept at saving His own--which would in fact violate Scripture. Chosen will never be lost because of the actions of another Christian, a visible church, demons and mental illness, physical suffering or any other trials, tribulation or persecution. Chosen is like Paul after his conversion or Peter after getting the Holy Ghost.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

There is an obvious non-sequitur within this short quote.
God does not choose someone who chooses on their own to remain evil.
When God chooses someone,
is similar to when a potter decides to keep a clay vessel -
it is because it becomes what He makes of it and is fit for the intended purpose.
If someone chooses to resist the devil, the devil flees.
If someone chooses to resist God, God waits - He won't coerce their will or their choice, as that would be un-Godly to do.

If God chooses someone like Saul, who was at the time opposed to Jesus,
God knows what Saul will do later,
as God knows everything....
Paul willingly surrendered , gave up his previous life of sin,
and obeyed Jesus.
God knew Paul would obey, since God knows everything, for all time.
God perfectly knew Saul's heart/ Paul's heart - as ONLY the PURE IN HEART will see God. Saul's heart was not pure;
God gave Paul a new heart and a clean spirit (like King David asked for),
and knew Paul's heart and mind(renewed) willingly and joyously
delighted as a new creation to serve and worship God instead of sinnin.

I don't understand how you believe the statement I made is non-sequitur? Can you clarify?

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

How will they believe unless someone is sent to preach to them the good news? Paul's reasoning in
Romans 10

How can the chosen not be saved because man doesn't preach the Good News? If people are concerned that God's sovereignty is negated when people have the opportunity to choose Him, how is it not equally offensive that God's sovereign outcome would depend upon man to choose to obediently preach the Gospel so other chosen could be saved?