What if Jesus was really just a common man?

Cuddles333

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What if it were true, as some secular researchers like Benjamin Urrutial in his co-authored book; 'The Logia of Yeshua; The Sayings of Jesus' that Pilate had Jesus crucified for being a leader of a group that staged a non-violent revolt against the Romans for leaving their pagan Standards on the sacred mountain. That the writings of the New Testament were not actual truth and that his followers made up the story of his body being resurrected?

I myself would still feel a great obligation to lead a conscience guided life by making the morally higher daily decisions. I would do this because I know by my conscience that God exists. That I have this conscience because there is a creator. I think this path that I would, and think I am following today, is called objective morality.
 

St_Worm2

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What if it were true, as some secular researchers like Benjamin Urrutial in his co-authored book; 'The Logia of Yeshua; The Sayings of Jesus' that Pilate had Jesus crucified for being a leader of a group that staged a non-violent revolt against the Romans for leaving their pagan Standards on the sacred mountain. That the writings of the New Testament were not actual truth and that his followers made up the story of his body being resurrected? ... What if Jesus was really just a common man?

St. Paul has something to say about this. He writes:
"If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain ... and you are still in your sins. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, then we are of all people most to be pitied." 1 Corinthians 15:13-14, 17, 19
Ephesians 2:1 tells us that we were "dead in our trespasses and sins". If Christ is not God and He has not risen from the dead, then we remain in that state, we remain "children of wrath, even as the rest" (Ephesians 2:3).

--David
 
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What if it were true, as some secular researchers like Benjamin Urrutial in his co-authored book; 'The Logia of Yeshua; The Sayings of Jesus' that Pilate had Jesus crucified for being a leader of a group that staged a non-violent revolt against the Romans for leaving their pagan Standards on the sacred mountain. That the writings of the New Testament were not actual truth and that his followers made up the story of his body being resurrected?

I myself would still feel a great obligation to lead a conscience guided life by making the morally higher daily decisions. I would do this because I know by my conscience that God exists. That I have this conscience because there is a creator. I think this path that I would, and think I am following today, is called objective morality.

Then you are still dead in your sins and there is no hope.
 
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Noxot

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it is more certain to me that God is than that I even exist. there are 2 kinds of logic one from below and one from above.

if it could be proven 100% that Jesus was just a man then it means that this shadowy reality humans think is reality, this tiny tiny tiny universe must be what all of reality is based on. but I say there are higher realities and that God is the highest reality which shines forth all realities. human logic is like an ant attempting to compact our entire universe into the size of an atom.

what would I do if Jesus is only a man? I would wake up from my dream. and that is what i did, yeah rather Christ in me woke me up.
 
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Cuddles333

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Well, for about 1500 years the Israelites were commanded to offer blood sacrifices. They understood this practice was to remove sins. They did not understand that an unblemished human sacrifice was required.....and this was to be their Messiah as well? :o

We Christians see this so clearly from this side of time. With Paul's help, we can see the gears shift from 'National-servant' (Isaiah 40-52) to 'Individual-servant' (Isaiah 53).

The Israelites did not teach that mankind had a sinful nature as an infant or adult. This must have been why they didn't (and still don't today) teach that they need (or needed) an unblemished 'human' sacrifice to deliver them from their sinful nature.

I just have always wondered why they (saw) and still see Jesus so differently than we do.
 
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fhansen

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Well, for about 1500 years the Israelites were commanded to offer blood sacrifices. They understood this practice was to remove sins. They did not understand that an unblemished human sacrifice was required.....and this was to be their Messiah as well? :o

We Christians see this so clearly from this side of time. With Paul's help, we can see the gears shift from 'National-servant' (Isaiah 40-52) to 'Individual-servant' (Isaiah 53).

The Israelites did not teach that mankind had a sinful nature as an infant or adult. This must have been why they didn't (and still don't today) teach that they need (or needed) an unblemished 'human' sacrifice to deliver them from their sinful nature.

I just have always wondered why they (saw) and still see Jesus so differently than we do.
Because, for one thing, we've come to see ourselves differently. The act of Jesus' sacrificial death proclaims two things most loudly: 1) man is a sinner; man remains separated from God to the extent that he remains in his sins, sin being opposition to the very will of God after all. There would be absolutely no need for Jesus' passion and death otherwise. And, 2) God loves man lavishly, in spite of his sins, and forgives them totally to the extent that we take His offer, turning from sin and to His love, turning back to Him, IOW, apart from Whom we can do nothing. Man needs more than obedience to the law in order to overcome sin and attain his intended righteousness.

Man needs communion with God in order to achieve righteousness, in order to love as he should IOW, to be who he was created to be, to have life and life abundantly. That's the New Covenant.
 
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fhansen

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If what you posit were shown to be true, I'd probably have no particular ethical standards. There would NOT be any reason to think there is any god--and even if there were, there'd be no reason to think he cared in the least about us.
OK. But it'd be much more enlightening to support your statements rather than leaving them in blanket form.

Ethical standards are more likely to be held by those who believe those standards represent criteria by which our eternal destiny will be judged rather than eternal destiny being a matter of election only without reference to ones alignment with God's standards. And it'd be difficult for me to believe God cares if He were not also to care about those going to hell, if He actually predestined them to that fate of eternal torment IOW, again without reference to criteria by which their free choices might be judged by.
 
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Albion

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OK. But it'd be much more enlightening to support your statements rather than leaving them in blanket form.

Ethical standards are more likely to be held by those who believe those standards represent criteria by which our eternal destiny will be judged rather than eternal destiny being a matter of election only without reference to ones alignment with God's standards. And it'd be difficult for me to believe God cares if He were not also to care about those going to hell, if He actually predestined them to that fate of eternal torment IOW, again without reference to criteria by which their free choices might be judged by.

I really don't see the OP as an opening for rehashing Christian or Biblical doctrines--since, obviously, the premise of the OP is that those have been discovered not to matter anymore.
 
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Harry3142

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Cuddles222-

Many Jews at the time of Christ, and yet today, believed that there was no afterlife to be attained. Their belief system was, "We are born, we live, we die, the end." The only 'immortality' they accepted were the memories of us that we would leave behind in the minds of those who had known us.

They base this belief system on the literal teachings of Torah. In Genesis 3:19 the Torah teaches that man is destined to return to the dust of the earth, from whence he came. In Deuteronomy 7:12-15 the promises for keeping the laws and commandments of Torah are confined to this lifetime (abundant harvests, increased herds and flocks, children, and freedom from diseases previously suffered). But there is no mention of an afterlife even existing, muchless anyone's being able to enter an afterlife.

So what were the laws and commandments of Torah intended to do? They were intended to turn what was little more than a ragtag mob into a society that would be strong enough to defend itself against any aggressor who might want to destroy it. Through the keeping of those societal laws the citizens of that society would feel secure among the other citizenry. The family unit would remain strong, which would enable the villages where they lived to remain strong, which in turn would enable their society at large to remain strong.

And the sin sacrifices? They were a reminder that in order for their society to remain strong and cohesive, everyone had to do his part, and those who 'screwed up' needed to pay a penalty in order to remind themselves not to 'screw up' again. Those sacrifices of bulls, goats and sheep were never intended to make any individual righteous as God defines it; instead they were intended to enable the society itself to remain strong.

Into this society came Jesus Christ with a good news/bad news message. The good news was that there was indeed an afterlife worthy of being attained; the bad news was that no one would ever attain that afterlife through his own efforts. Under God's 'yardstick' none of us measured up to his requirements for righteousness. But instead of 'writing us off' and washing his hands of us, God himself laid out the blueprints for a sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Instead of this sacrifice merely enabling a person to become 'right' with his society of fellow human beings, this sacrifice would make all mankind 'right' with God himself:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

We do not bow the knee to Jesus Christ as a substitute for worshiping God the Father. Instead, we bow the knee to Jesus Christ out of gratitude to God the Father. Through Jesus' sacrifice God has received, and has accepted, the full atonement for our sins, and is therefore willing to give us his own righteousness. And it is this righteousness which we need in order to have eternal life. We cannot earn it as if it were a salary, nor can we purchase it as if it were an asset. Our only means of obtaining this righteousness is to receive it exactly as God himself offers it, namely, as a free gift earned for us by God the Father through the sacrifice of his Son, our Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ.
 
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Cuddles333

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Excellent, excellent, posts!


It is so interesting to try to see things the way the Jews (may have) back then. The way Christians have been describing our teachings to them, about this man Jesus, being our 'sacrifice' what might have come to their minds might have been.....'instead of an unblemished animal put on the alter, killed, then bled, and it's blood sprinkled,....these Christians are telling us that we should have sacrificed this man Jesus on the alter instead?' 'Like the Aztecs and Incas,' 'If this is really what the Christians are saying, why was it not written like that in this way so there would be no misunderstanding and hard feelings?' 'Here is this man, sinless since birth, fitting all the descriptions of Isaiah 53, etc. so we take him, put him on the alter, kill him, bleed him, sprinkle his blood over the Mercy Seat, and that is that.' 'No more animal sacrifices needed.' 'Everything is finished'
 
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fhansen

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I really don't see the OP as an opening for rehashing Christian or Biblical doctrines--since, obviously, the premise of the OP is that those have been discovered not to matter anymore.
Sorry-I'd misunderstood your post. :blush: Think I'm getting too used to anticipating polemics around here!
 
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seeingeyes

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What if it were true, as some secular researchers like Benjamin Urrutial in his co-authored book; 'The Logia of Yeshua; The Sayings of Jesus' that Pilate had Jesus crucified for being a leader of a group that staged a non-violent revolt against the Romans for leaving their pagan Standards on the sacred mountain. That the writings of the New Testament were not actual truth and that his followers made up the story of his body being resurrected?

I myself would still feel a great obligation to lead a conscience guided life by making the morally higher daily decisions. I would do this because I know by my conscience that God exists. That I have this conscience because there is a creator. I think this path that I would, and think I am following today, is called objective morality.

There's nothing common about Jesus. Even if you dropped every miracle associated with him, he still stands out. :)
 
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football5680

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Historical records do not support this view. We have numerous non-Christian writers who spoke about Jesus, and the apostles would not willingly become martyrs for something they knew was false. Simply denying Jesus would have saved them but they refused which obviously shows that they believed in Jesus and who he was.
 
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Cuddles333

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"God himself laid out the blueprints for a sacrifice to end all sacrifices. Instead of this sacrifice merely enabling a person to become 'right' with his society of fellow human beings, this sacrifice would make all mankind 'right' with God himself:" Harry 3142 [post #11]


The Jews might have just wondered that if this is what it took to have sins forgiven for all time with no works required, then why did he not just let the religious leaders kill Him at the start of His ministry.

Maybe I am coming from the Christian concept, thinking that the Jews were looking for the same thing we already have. I find they were (and still are) looking for what they refer to as the Mashiach. One who will restore the kingdom of Israel, resurrect the righteous, rebuild the temple, restore sacrifices, and teach all the nations about God, etc.

Which would have solidified the Jews belief that Jesus was not their Messiah when he 'mentioned' the temple 'being tore down' in John's gospel.

It is kind of amazing how Jews and Christians could have such differing understandings from on another.....concerning the same things.
 
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