What if Jesus did not come to die for our sins?

[GenemZ]

I didn't see an explanation for how Elijah came and went from Hades to the sky and back again, except to say that we don't know.

This should settle it.

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came
from heaven—the Son of Man." Jn 3:13​

That was spoken prior to the Cross!

Elijah was not there!

 

[timothyu]

And no one else will, considering the Kingdom and new world will come down out of Heaven. Grandma isn't waiting there in an apron behind a picket fence. No human is but one.

 

[GenemZ]

And no one else will, considering the Kingdom and new world will come down out of Heaven. Grandma isn't waiting there in an apron behind a picket fence. No human is but one.

Where did that come form? Please, get the context and try again. Jesus said that before the Cross took place. Not after. Paul said he longed to be absent from the body so he could be face to face with the Lord...

 

[timothyu]

Where did that come form?

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came
from heaven—the Son of Man." Jn 3:13

And no one else will, considering the Kingdom and new world will come down out of Heaven.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

Can that be supported with Biblical scriptures?

Hebrews 10:10 'And by that will, we have all been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ one and for all' (the last bit also seems to refute the claim that we can lose salvation)

 

[GenemZ]

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came
from heaven—the Son of Man." Jn 3:13

And no one else will, considering the Kingdom and new world will come down out of Heaven.

You are missing the context. When was that spoken?

Was it prior to Jesus dying for our sins?

After He died for our sins and was resurrected... He took up with Himself in a long train all the souls that had been waiting in Abraham's side. That is why He told thief on the cross that "today you will be with me in Paradise. Jesus was going there to gather all who were now going to be taken to Heaven when He ascended.

We need to know these things.

Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”


9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean
but that He also first descended
into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:8-9​

All the souls of believers were being held captive below the earth (until Jesus posted payment for the fine of being sinners from birth). Which payment, secured them their release. And, then under protected escort, escorted up to Heaven behind the Lord in a long train. Train used in the sense of a bride's train that she has behind her as seen in some ceremonies.

Also, simultaneously, the Lord began distributing the spiritual gifts to the Church on earth that formed into the new organization of God on earth.

Do you want to know these things? Some hate it. Some love it.

.

 

[GenemZ]

"No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came
from heaven—the Son of Man." Jn 3:13

And no one else will, considering the Kingdom and new world will come down out of Heaven.

Why are you confusing the new kingdom on earth with Heaven?

 

[timothyu]

You are missing the context. When was that spoken?

Was it prior to Jesus dying for our sins?

After He died for our sins and was resurrected... He took up with Himself in a long train all the souls that had been waiting in Abraham's side.

He went to sit beside the Father until the time of the Gentiles was over. A thousand years here then the new Jerusalem and Kingdom coming down form Heaven, the old world and ways being no more.

 

[timothyu]

Why are you confusing the new kingdom on earth with Heaven?

I'm not. A thousand year reign here then a new Jerusalem and Kingdom coming down from Heaven, this old world and it's ways being no more.

 

[GenemZ]

I'm not. A thousand year reign here then a new Jerusalem and Kingdom coming down from Heaven, this old world and it's ways being no more.

There are going to be two new heavens and new earth.

First one will be having this world being transformed by the Lord, as spoken of by Isaiah. A lion will lie down with a lamb and eat straw... and if a person dies at 100? He will be considered a mere infant. People will live long, but also capable of dying. In the second new heavens and new earth (the home of righteousness) there will be no more death.

 

[timothyu]

First one will be having this world being transformed by the Lord, as spoken of by Isaiah. A lion will lie down with a lamb and eat straw... and if a person dies at 100? He will be considered a mere infant. People will live long, but also capable of dying. In the second new heavens and new earth (the home of righteousness) there will be no more death.

Echo

 

[1213]

Hebrews 10:10 'And by that will, we have all been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ one and for all' (the last bit also seems to refute the claim that we can lose salvation)

That is not exactly the same as “his death was necessary to remove the punishment for our sin”.

There are several things what that Hebrews 10:10 could mean. And I think it would be important for example to remember also this:

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

I think Jesus sacrificed his life for us, by using his life for us, by preaching the message. And because he did that, he got killed. I think it could be compared to a soldier who “sacrifices his life” for his country. Soldier doesn’t go to war to kill himself so that other people would be saved, they go to war to use their life to protect others and so sacrifice their body for the cause. I think same is with Jesus. He came to do God’s will for our benefit and so sacrificed his body/life for us.

 

[timothyu]

He came to do God’s will for our benefit and so sacrificed his body/life for us.

True enough. His mission was the Gospel of the Kingdom and his death not only fulfilled the will of the Father, but showed allegiance to the governance of God rather than man. As a bonus He got to be the first resurrected of many and earned his role as our King under the coming Kingdom of God when the Father will live among us once more.

 

[Saint Steven]

Here's a refreshing view on this. (video below)
At the 20 minute mark Brad works up to a startling conclusion which is introduced and explained starting at about the 20:30 point. "Jesus died to pay the consequence of sin, which is death." Obviously, this is a different take on the idea that Jesus paid our sin debt.

Enjoy this interview with Brad Jersak where he discusses many questions like when salvation occurs, why did Jesus have to die, where did death come from, what did the early church believe about the after-life, etc.

 

[DennisTate]

This is going to be controversial, so just keep an open mind before a new jerk response.

What if (I did say if) God did not demand Christ’s death, one who was sinless, as payment for the sins of the world.

Often, to the outsider, and sometimes the believer, this idea of sacrificing animals, etc. is confusing. Add to that that Jesus and the Father are one, and the logic goes:
God made Adam and Eve. They disobeyed God and sinned, as we all do, because they were imperfect, as we all admit we are.
Because of this, they were expelled from Eden and sentenced to toil and eventually die.
In order to save the world from this punishment he created, he impregnated a virgin with himself, and was then crucified by Pilot, and rose again, to appease himself for the world’s sin.

When we forgive another for sinning against us, we do not demand that they kill their dog, or give some other sacrifice. We simply forgive the sin, explaining how it harmed you, and asking them not to do it again.

When the woman was caught in adultery, after her accusers had left, Jesus said “Neither do I condemn you. Your sins have been forgiven. Go and sin no more.”

He didn’t say, “Your sins have been forgiven*
*pending my upcoming crucifixion and resurrection

If the only thing necessary for salvation was Christ’s death, they could have allowed Harod to kill Jesus with the rest of the children he was executing.

Is it possible that Jesus came here to teach us how to love one another?
Jesus, when asked if one should forgive their neighbor 7 times, Jesus says, “70 x 7.” Despite some literalists who have told me that meant one only has to forgive 490 times, and apparently keep a ledger and keep track, I understand it to me to forgive without limit, as many times as you would wish to be forgiven of the Father.
He told Parables of the sheep and goats, of how one is to love actively, versus simply refraining from doing misdeeds toward one another.
He told a Parable of the man forgiven a great debt who refused to forgive the small debt of his servant, angered the master, who then reinstated the debt. Christ is saying that we are forgiven a great debt, way before he was crucified.

So, why the crucifixion? To show how far Christ/God would go for us because of his great love, to the point of being willing to allow us to kill him, and still offer love and forgiveness.

Not completely biblical, but then again, when Jesus flipped over the tables in the temple, it was because people had made sacrifices into a way to make a buck, offering people entering the temple a sacrifice they had bought, but wasn’t really a sacrifice. When I went to my church, I never had to bring a dove or goat to sacrifice to God to show my loyalty or sincerity.
not do I demand it from another, or to find their most prized possession and destroy it as a sacrifice for atonement. I simply forgive.

******
As a side note, a Christian once told a story of how there was a Christian Man, his wife, and their 5 year old child, and an atheist on a boat.
They were caught in a storm, and the boat began to sink.
There was one emergency lifeboat, but it would hold only 3.
The Christian husband panicked, jumped over his wife and child and got in the boat. Then, realizing how bad that looked, said that way he could help others get on the boat.
The atheist then helped the child, and then the wife, before the boat sank and the atheist drowned.

Question: Does the atheist go to heaven?
I said, “Yes, of course.”
He said, “Wrong. Because he did not believe in Christ, he is now burning in hell.”
I argued,” but he sacrificed his own life so that he could save the Christian family.”
He said, “no good works get you into heaven.:
I said, “I’m not saying that he earned his way into heaven by dying. I am saying that he loved his neighbor so much, that he was will to sacrifice himself that they may live.”
He said, “Doesn’t matter. You can’t be saved without Jesus.”
I said, “Then I don’t understand. You have a husband that thought of himself before the atheist, his wife he loves, and even his own child. I get that people panick, but he showed that he was not following Jesus by loving his neighbor as himself, but rather, loving himself before others. By contrast, the atheist, not believing in a heaven or hell, that by sacrificing himself, his life will simply end, but chose to give up his life out of love for the family, he was acting Christlike.”
He said: “Doesn’t matter.”
I said: But he sacrificed his life, just as Christ sacrificed his life for us, that we might live. And the bible states that giving your life for another is the greatest kind of love their is.”
He said, “still doesn’t count.”
I said: Then your religion makes no sense.
You believe that Christ died for the world demonstrating his love for us, but when a human does it for another, regardless of their religion, it’s not as good as Jesus’ death, despite that the Bible says otherwise.
The atheist demonstrated his love for his neighbor without believing there is a heaven nor eternal life awaiting, but simply, nothingness, and still gave up his life.
The Christian husband thought only of himself, and yet, on some technicality of believing in Christ, yet not following Christ in at least thinking of his daughter and wife first, is given a free ticket to heaven.

That makes no logical sense.

Near death experiencer Dr. Kevin Zadai was shown that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus BOUGHT US........... He paid the necessary price to own us and be able to do whatever He wants to do with us......... and what Messiah wants to do with us is treat us like friends and family..... not like mere servants.

Yes He died to pay the price of our sins but.... there is far, far, far more to the whole of His sacrifice.

 

[timothyu]

Consider. Could Jesus under different circumstances have eventually died of old age?

 

[DennisTate]

Consider. Could Jesus under different circumstances have eventually died of old age?

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is truly a WOW....... type of question!!!!!!

I think that I am attempting to begin to start to answer that here:

Multiverse Theory, multiple Ezekiel 37 events and the unification of Calvinism with Universalism?

 

[GenemZ]

Near death experiencer Dr. Kevin Zadai was shown that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus BOUGHT US........... He paid the necessary price to own us and be able to do whatever He wants to do with us......... and what Messiah wants to do with us is treat us like friends and family..... not like mere servants.

Yes He died to pay the price of our sins but.... there is far, far, far more to the whole of His sacrifice.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit,
who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not
your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God
with your bodies." 1 Cor 6:19-20​

 

[Qwertyui0p]

This is going to be controversial, so just keep an open mind before a new jerk response.

What if (I did say if) God did not demand Christ’s death, one who was sinless, as payment for the sins of the world.

Often, to the outsider, and sometimes the believer, this idea of sacrificing animals, etc. is confusing. Add to that that Jesus and the Father are one, and the logic goes:
God made Adam and Eve. They disobeyed God and sinned, as we all do, because they were imperfect, as we all admit we are.
Because of this, they were expelled from Eden and sentenced to toil and eventually die.
In order to save the world from this punishment he created, he impregnated a virgin with himself, and was then crucified by Pilot, and rose again, to appease himself for the world’s sin.

When we forgive another for sinning against us, we do not demand that they kill their dog, or give some other sacrifice. We simply forgive the sin, explaining how it harmed you, and asking them not to do it again.

When the woman was caught in adultery, after her accusers had left, Jesus said “Neither do I condemn you. Your sins have been forgiven. Go and sin no more.”

He didn’t say, “Your sins have been forgiven*
*pending my upcoming crucifixion and resurrection

If the only thing necessary for salvation was Christ’s death, they could have allowed Harod to kill Jesus with the rest of the children he was executing.

Is it possible that Jesus came here to teach us how to love one another?
Jesus, when asked if one should forgive their neighbor 7 times, Jesus says, “70 x 7.” Despite some literalists who have told me that meant one only has to forgive 490 times, and apparently keep a ledger and keep track, I understand it to me to forgive without limit, as many times as you would wish to be forgiven of the Father.
He told Parables of the sheep and goats, of how one is to love actively, versus simply refraining from doing misdeeds toward one another.
He told a Parable of the man forgiven a great debt who refused to forgive the small debt of his servant, angered the master, who then reinstated the debt. Christ is saying that we are forgiven a great debt, way before he was crucified.

So, why the crucifixion? To show how far Christ/God would go for us because of his great love, to the point of being willing to allow us to kill him, and still offer love and forgiveness.

Not completely biblical, but then again, when Jesus flipped over the tables in the temple, it was because people had made sacrifices into a way to make a buck, offering people entering the temple a sacrifice they had bought, but wasn’t really a sacrifice. When I went to my church, I never had to bring a dove or goat to sacrifice to God to show my loyalty or sincerity.
not do I demand it from another, or to find their most prized possession and destroy it as a sacrifice for atonement. I simply forgive.

******
As a side note, a Christian once told a story of how there was a Christian Man, his wife, and their 5 year old child, and an atheist on a boat.
They were caught in a storm, and the boat began to sink.
There was one emergency lifeboat, but it would hold only 3.
The Christian husband panicked, jumped over his wife and child and got in the boat. Then, realizing how bad that looked, said that way he could help others get on the boat.
The atheist then helped the child, and then the wife, before the boat sank and the atheist drowned.

Question: Does the atheist go to heaven?
I said, “Yes, of course.”
He said, “Wrong. Because he did not believe in Christ, he is now burning in hell.”
I argued,” but he sacrificed his own life so that he could save the Christian family.”
He said, “no good works get you into heaven.:
I said, “I’m not saying that he earned his way into heaven by dying. I am saying that he loved his neighbor so much, that he was will to sacrifice himself that they may live.”
He said, “Doesn’t matter. You can’t be saved without Jesus.”
I said, “Then I don’t understand. You have a husband that thought of himself before the atheist, his wife he loves, and even his own child. I get that people panick, but he showed that he was not following Jesus by loving his neighbor as himself, but rather, loving himself before others. By contrast, the atheist, not believing in a heaven or hell, that by sacrificing himself, his life will simply end, but chose to give up his life out of love for the family, he was acting Christlike.”
He said: “Doesn’t matter.”
I said: But he sacrificed his life, just as Christ sacrificed his life for us, that we might live. And the bible states that giving your life for another is the greatest kind of love their is.”
He said, “still doesn’t count.”
I said: Then your religion makes no sense.
You believe that Christ died for the world demonstrating his love for us, but when a human does it for another, regardless of their religion, it’s not as good as Jesus’ death, despite that the Bible says otherwise.
The atheist demonstrated his love for his neighbor without believing there is a heaven nor eternal life awaiting, but simply, nothingness, and still gave up his life.
The Christian husband thought only of himself, and yet, on some technicality of believing in Christ, yet not following Christ in at least thinking of his daughter and wife first, is given a free ticket to heaven.

That makes no logical sense.

The atheist is in hell because no matter what he did in this life he is not good enough for heaven, no one is, which is why we needed Jesus to forgive our sins. The reason we don't sacrifice animals is because Jesus paid the penalty for sin.

 

[GenemZ]

The atheist is in hell because no matter what he did in this life he is not good enough for heaven, no one is, which is why we needed Jesus to forgive our sins. The reason we don't sacrifice animals is because Jesus paid the penalty for sin.

The atheist will not be in hell for his sins. No unbeliever will be. For the penalty for all man's sins the Lord bore while hanging on his Cross.

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not
for ours only but also for the whole world." 1 Jn 2:2​

Sins will not even be mentioned at the final judgement. What will be evaluated will be all the works the unbeliever did to see if his actions can reach to the level of righteousness required by God to be found acceptable into His Kingdom.

No sins will be mentioned.

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the
Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their
works, by the things which were written in the books." Rev 20:12​

When the Lord will be revealing that all the unbelievers works can not equal God's standard for righteousness, there will be one work searched for. It will not be found! The one work that would have granted him the righteousness God seeks and approves of.

Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God,
that you believe in Him whom He sent.” Jn 6:28-29​

Not by works! We are saved by one single work .

Saved. Simply believe in Jesus Christ.

For, its by grace. Not by works.

One sole work.. made possible by means of God's grace enabling.