What if I've lead them all astray?

[Jezmeyah]

I rejoice in your salvation. You once were lost, but have been found. One thing to remember I think. Jesus wasn't Lutheran, or Catholic. He is the Son of the living God. That revelation is what saves the sinner. The denomination is simply what building you choose to gather with other believers. The Bible is the Word of God. Keep your faith closely lined up with Him and roll all other cares on the Lord.

I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

 

[Open Heart]

What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Obviously I believe that theologically you have made a really big mistake. And I believe you have deprived them of the Sacraments of Eucharist and Confession, which are so very important.

But there is another side to this. If they had been Catholics strong in their faith, they would never have left. Something was missing in either their relationship with Christ or their relationship with the Church for them to go over to the Lutheran Church. If by going over to the Lutheran Church they drew closer to Christ, then in the long run they are better off, even though I would pray that ultimately they would return to the Catholic Church.

On the other hand, if their problem is a weak relationship with Christ's Church, going over to Lutheranism is just going to confuse them even more.

It sounds to me like you are not entirely sure of yourself. I would take the time to search this out.

• Pray
• Read Scripture
• Read the Catechism
• Study the Early Church Fathers
• Get a book on Church history that tries to be objective (IOW not Foxe's book of Martyrs LOL)
• See if you can take a class on Catholicism that is a little more advanced than RCIA, or read a book (not Catholicism for Dummies LOL)
• Visit Mass (don't feel like you have to participate more than you are comfortable with)
• Learn about Lutheranism as well.
• Pay close attention to the interchanges between Catholics and Lutherans on the boards
• Pray some more

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Obviously I believe that theologically you have made a really big mistake. And I believe you have deprived them of the Sacraments of Eucharist and Confession, which are so very important.

But there is another side to this. If they had been Catholics strong in their faith, they would never have left. Something was missing in either their relationship with Christ or their relationship with the Church for them to go over to the Lutheran Church. If by going over to the Lutheran Church they drew closer to Christ, then in the long run they are better off, even though I would pray that ultimately they would return to the Catholic Church.

On the other hand, if their problem is a weak relationship with Christ's Church, going over to Lutheranism is just going to confuse them even more.

It sounds to me like you are not entirely sure of yourself. I would take the time to search this out.

• Pray
• Read Scripture
• Read the Catechism
• Study the Early Church Fathers
• Get a book on Church history that tries to be objective (IOW not Foxe's book of Martyrs LOL)
• See if you can take a class on Catholicism that is a little more advanced than RCIA, or read a book (not Catholicism for Dummies LOL)
• Visit Mass (don't feel like you have to participate more than you are comfortable with)
• Learn about Lutheranism as well.
• Pay close attention to the interchanges between Catholics and Lutherans on the boards
• Pray some more

You misunderstand. I am sure. I do not believe the Catholic faith or desire to be Catholic. I have done my studying. This is an informed decision.

My problem is with what the Church teaches about being the true Church and the destination of those who aren't in it. If the Church is what She claims, I screwed up. Not that I believe it, but I would feel so awful.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I think there's a common misunderstanding by several people going on here. Probably the way I'm wording things, and being an Aspie I kind of get into believing that people should know what I mean as if they have access to my brain. Ha!

My wife and children and I aren't new Lutherans. Only her mom. We have no desire to be Catholic or even question it. We don't believe our denomination saves, but rather that Christ saves. It's just that knowing that the Catholic Church teaches that their church is the only true church and source of salvation, say they actually end up being correct and I led my family from It! Horrifying thought. I can see how this can be a scare tactic of the RCC however.

 

[Open Heart]

You misunderstand. I am sure. I do not believe the Catholic faith or desire to be Catholic. I have done my studying. This is an informed decision.

My problem is with what the Church teaches about being the true Church and the destination of those who aren't in it. If the Church is what She claims, I screwed up. Not that I believe it, but I would feel so awful.

If you were sure about your decision, you wouldn't be asking this question.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

If you were sure about your decision, you wouldn't be asking this question.

I'm sure about my decision to be Lutheran inasmuch as I can be. I'm sure about God, but I would be a liar if I didn't wonder, "What if?" every once in awhile. We all have these thoughts about the reality of God. That's the exact same thing being applied to Catholicism here.

 

[Butch5]

I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

I don't know that you've lead them astray. You've simply lead them to a different denomination. However, all of the denominations have erroneous teachings. There are teachings of the Catholic church that are wrong, but, there are teachings of the Lutheran church that are wrong too. The Protestant Reformation did change some of the errors of the Catholic church, however, they didn't change all of them and worse, they added new errors.

I commend your search for the truth. I too wanted to know what the Scriptures really teach. In my studies what I've found is that most of what is taught as Christianity today is simply not what the Bible teaches. I would suggest that you forget about going to seminary and instead focus your study on the Ante-Nicene period of church history. Read the historical documents and you will see what the earliest Christians believed and how they lived. You can then compare what the aid and did to the Scriptures and see if they line up. You see, today, Christianity has two thousand years of baggage added to it. There are all kinds of false doctrines that have been introduced into Christianity over all of these years. Going back to the beginning and looking at what actually took place and what they believed, the people who had direct access to the apostles, will go a long way in showing you what Christianity "really" is.

I would also encourage you to question everything. Don't just accept something because it is the "orhtodox" teaching. There is quite a bit of "orthodox" teaching in the church today that isn't Biblical. If you're truly interested in getting to the truth I can suggest some source that you can evaluate.

 

[John Steele]

First off, I think it's great that you are mature enough to self assess the decisions you have made. There is nothing wrong with that. Actually, I think it's healthy. I am only going to address the Catholic Church being the "one true church". The one true church as you put it is the church of Jesus Christ. It doesn't have a label attached to it other than Jesus. If we're going to be honest, Peter and Paul weren't Catholics, they were just followers of Christ. So my advice is to be a follower of Christ and the rest will take care of itself. I myself am a member of a Southern Baptist Church, but when people ask my religious affiliation, I call myself a Christian, not a Baptist. I hope this helps.

 

[Kobidobidog]

I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

The Catholic church messed up everything.
Proverbs 15:26 The thoughts of the wicked are an abomination to the LORD: but the words of the pure are pleasant words.
You know who the church made to be abominable.
Love works no ill has been broken by the leaders of the church. They set the hearts of people against Homosexuals and zoosexuals who j have a good heart not wanting to hurt anyone. The church did not teach people to work out their own salvation. That made people to invent oppressive laws.
Philippians 2:12: 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Matthew 12:37“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
Armageddon is 1000 years after the second coming of Jesus.
That is when God judges the living and the dead. All of the righteous and wicked will be on the earth all at one time.
Jesus is not a God man like the church teaches.
Corinthians 2:8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Swearing is not what you think. Matthew 5:34-37 King James Version (KJV)

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. “ People don’t do that anymore. People made a host of other words to be swear words changing the meaning of the word, swear. Swear back then was an oath. Changing the meaning made it easy for people to curse at people with a negative spirit putting people down. They sought a vain thing. James 3:10:10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
People curse many names. It is a vain attempt to be better than another person that dies. Satan likes to be self-deceived.


They made the sight of the God made body to be an evil thing to see. They made those sexuality names to be perverted when the tongue should not be perverted. They that have a perverted unfriendly tongue will be perverted in their ways. The church made circumcision to be a physical thing. God wants us to have a circumcised heart. Satan is a gold and gem covered being as it is spoken of in Ezekiel KJV. There were n o kings in the garden of Eden. Heaven needs to be in people. The church points up like the Muslims. People in the church have lied to people.

God does not hate the Homosexual. God hates liars.
Do not lie: Colossians 3:9-11:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Proverbs 26:28:A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a
flattering mouth worketh ruin.
Leviticus 18:22: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." People lied to women frequently. Jesus quotes pharisaical law in verse 34 and 35 in 1 Corinthians 14. Jesus chastises them in verse 36 saying, what, came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? Jesus is saying this: truth comes to both sexes. 1 Corinthians 11:15 “But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.”
What do people do? They lie to the woman saying don’t speak or cover your hair.
The sabbath:
Colossians 2:16 - Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in
respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Mark 2:27-28 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Romans 14:5-12:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Hell is not a place.
Hebrews 12:29 for our " God is a consuming fire." 1 John 1:5 - This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. The violent wicked liars will be around the city of God seeing God's light as if it was fire and brimstone. That light turns the wicked into the lake of fire burning them up more completely than any fire. Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. Deuteronomy 32:22 “For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase. Malachi 4:3“And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.”

Charity is not an earthly thing.
1 Corinthians 13:4-8Authorized (King Charity suffereth long, and is kind;
charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not
behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Colossians 3:14: And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. People who have charity are like a humble child.
Matthew 18:3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.


· The word "lewd" is from the Saxon, and means properly "ignorant," "unlearned," and hence low, vicious (Acts 17:5). KJV Cambridge editon 1611 study bible. Old Scofield bible study bible. The Sword study bible or the KJV 1900.

Religions made people to look narrowly upon the parts God made. That made art to be one place for one age to see with another form of art to be in another place for another age to see making people look narrowly upon what God made not even knowing it. 1 Corinthians 12: 23And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.”
God does not look on the body parts like people look upon them.


Non-human animals have a soul.
Romans 8: 20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23And not only they, but ourselves also,
But by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope are people.
The creature freed from the bondage of corruption is the non-human animal that is given eternal life.
Glorious liberty of the children of God is God's kingdom.
The word they referrers back to the non-human animals.

Satan does not look like you think. 2 Corinthians 11:14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
This describes Lucifer who became Satan.
◄ Ezekiel 28:13 ►15 13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious
stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the
onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:
the workmanship of thytabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till
iniquity was found in thee. That is who Muhammad saw. That description in Ezekiel is not an earthly king. There were no earthly kings in the Garden of Eden.
Satan went after helpless stars doing the big bang. Satan does not look like you think. That being is the abomination of desolation who wants to stand where he ought not to stand. Get away from him when seen.
Faith is not what you think. The centurion had faith when he asked a person to do something with the person doing what the centurion wanted the person to do. Thomas had faith doing what Jesus said saying reach forth and touch the nail and spear wounds that were on his body. They were not known to Thomas until he touched them doing what Jesus asked him to do. A faithless devil possessed person would have refused to do that being filled with fear at the thought of Jesus being alive. They thought that he was dead. Demons want death. Faith waits for the end of death and to see God as he is rising into the air to meet him in the air. Why need faith to see them when they are seen? They that have faith love the truth. They that are faithless love lies. Fallen angels will believe a lie as to when Jesus will come back. It will be the end of them and all that they value.

 

[com7fy8]

my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith.

Hi, Sword God bless you and your family I am Bill

Our Apostle Paul says we all need >

"faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6)

We need to believe the way God's love has us believing . . . and perceiving . . . how love has us understanding > Philippians 1:9. So, radical faith includes how we depend on our Heavenly Father to make us real in His love > 1 Corinthians 13 < curing our nature so we are "as He is" "in this world." (in 1 John 4:17)

How we become able to see things right will grow as we grow in God's love with His light. So, I would not be too hasty to draw conclusions while you are still a younger Christian, or middle-aged . . . or even more mature Depend on God to correct you howsoever He knows we really need correction > Hebrews 12:4-11.

This will bring us more and more into personal sharing with Jesus . . . not only together with a certain group of imperfect humans who are self-congratulating that they have gotten their ideas and practices right. Faith is not for copy-catting, but faith has us in our Creator's love with His own creativity for how to love each and every person . . . since God's love is all-loving (Matthew 5:46).

there is only one baptism

Our Apostle Paul does say there is "one baptism". And Paul says we in Jesus all "were baptized into His death," in Romans 6:3. It does not say baptized into water, but "into His death". I have learned that being in Jesus Christ's death includes being in His love which had Him so suffer and die for any and all people (1 John 2:2). Therefore the true baptism of faith has us becoming more and more real and mature in Jesus' own love living in us (Galatians 2:20) and curing our nature to make us like Him > Galatians 4:19, 1 John 4:17, Hebrews 12:4-11.

This comes with personally trusting in Christ > Ephesians 1:12.

It's their belief that they are the One True Church and there is no salvation outside of it. I don't believe that, personally. But what bothers me is, what if they're right and I led people from the only faith that saves? I don't believe I did, but since I literally led people from the ancient church that teaches this, my mind naturally wanders.

Our basic Christian calling includes how our Father has us loving one another > Ephesians 4:1-3, 4:31-5:2. And our basic calling "in one body" (Colossians 3:15) includes submitting to how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us with His very own peace in our "hearts" (Colossians 3:15).

You can see for yourself if this is what someone emphasizes, or if the person has one's own fingerprints on how one handles God's word.

I did not know Martin Luther personally; so I can't speak for him. How he actually lived would have been his real meaning of whatsoever he claimed to believe.

But I have shared with one Lutheran pastor who seemed for a while to be into a sort of agnostic (not deeply personally sharing with God) liberalism thing. Then he seemed to be corrected to be more into the Bible and conservative. But what, in his case, has seemed to come out the most is how he congratulates Martin and Lutheranism, more than anything. Everything is in comparison with proper Lutheranism as he sees it. He does not first emphasize how to become real in God's love, in our nature, and how this will have us becoming; and he does not emphasize being personally ruled by God Himself in His own peace in our "hearts" (Colossians 3:15), or how our minds will become because of God's peace guarding our "hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:6-7).

But these are Bible basics!!! of Christianity.

But I am not saying he represents correct Lutheranism. But he has stayed established with Lutherans for much of his life. And so, I would say this means that even if Lutheranism were to be more or less right, still you will need to make sure about each thing, since you do not know how any leader at any time might be mistaken or even very wrong.

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

And, yes, you and I could be the ones who at any time might be wrong. So we need to constantly be testing in our own selves about if what is going on inside of us is really in God's love or not. This means constantly being sensitive and prayerful. If you please to get more into what this means, for me, I offer a l-o-n-g devotional that I just posted, in "Daily Devotionals" > "What does God mean by 'faithful'?"

God bless you, too

Bill

 

[D2wing]

I don't know where else to place this thread. If I place it in the Lutheran forum, by people are going to tell me that I'm correct by default; if I place it in the Catholic forum, people are going to tell me that I'm incorrect by default. I'm also not sure of what advice, exactly, that I'm looking for, but nevertheless...

My wife was raised in a strict Catholic family. Ideally, she was to marry a Catholic and have a Catholic family. But then she met me, an atheist at the time. After awhile, she gave up her faith because she followed my lead and (poor) logic on how religion is stupid, fake, and irrational. But then several years ago, at random, out of the blue, with no warning or rational explanation, Jesus came to me in the most vivid dream I have ever had, and he told me, "Michael, forgiveness is yours; just believe and ask." I immediately woke up in sweat and tears and gave my life to him right then and there. I soon became a Lutheran, and my wife followed my lead, abandoning her Catholic upbringing and fully embracing Lutheranism. Throughout these years I have become exceptionally educated on Scripture and Theology, and my faith is radical, for better or worse, as is her faith. I plan to go to Concordia Seminary soon.

A couple of years ago, my mother-in-law began attending our church. It was a slow process for her, but she abandoned Catholicism and was confirmed as a Lutheran of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod a few weeks ago. She is now working on her own mother and showing her own life long Catholic mother the errors and additions of the Catholic Church.

Lutheranism feels so 'right'. I don't believe that Jesus would personally come to me, a militant atheist not far from being Saul himself in regards to my hatred of Christians and Christ, and save me, in the process saving my family, and then let us go astray and worship him in a false way, in a false faith. We must be right where he wants us. To me this is logical - at least that is my belief.

My wife and I now have 4 children, who are all Lutherans as well. Here's what keeps me up at night sometimes: What if - just what if - Catholicism is correct (I don't believe that it is), that it is the One True Church, and I, being the head of my family, have lead these people who were once part of Christ's Church (assuming now that the Catholic Church is his One True Church) astray? What if I intruded into their lives, and I lead a complete family away from Christ? It's very, very unlikely that they would have ceased to be Catholics without having met me. It would have been better for me to have never been born, or to have had a millstone fastened around my neck and been cast into the sea, if that's the case.

Final Note: No anti-Catholicism. That does nothing for us here. We are not anti-Catholic. We respect their faith and traditions. We simply believe, like Luther, that they are completely and utterly wrong about some things, and we can't accept that. I don't need piles of Scripture proving the Church is some beast, that it's wrong, or pagan references. Thank you.

No one is saved by church membership. Anyone who is saved is saved by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus as Lord of their life and his blood sacrifice for our sins. Nothing else . He gave us his word, the Bible to confirm that we are saved by faith, and of course honest response to that faith.
Being in any church can help our faith or hinder it. Being Catholic or Lutheran or any Christian church does not make you a Christian or disqualify you from being a Christian. However some teachings can divert one from the truth, Jesus Christ, and hinder or even lead one astray. Any church teaching must be fully confirmed by Scripture in the plain sense of it and not a single Scripture out of context. That is why we must study to show ourselves approved. No church has a corner on the truth. All are flawed. I hope this helps.

 

[FireDragon76]

Our Apostle Paul does say there is "one baptism". And Paul says we in Jesus all "were baptized into His death," in Romans 6:3. It does not say baptized into water, but "into His death".

You don't think one can be baptized by water into Jesus death if it is accompanied by the power of his Word? I honestly think you have too low a view of God's omnipotence on this point.

A lot of non-Catholics or non-Lutherans simply do not understand sacramentalism, due to relatively modern, nominalist philosophical presuppositions about the relationship of signs and the things signified. This doesn't prove the Lutheran belief wrong, it proves that you don't understand your own philosophical presuppositions.

This comes with personally trusting in Christ > Ephesians 1:12.

Lutherans never argue against personally trusting in Christ, quite the opposite. But if you mean, trusting in Christ to the exclusion of trusting your pastor or your congregation, I think you again are reading culturally conditioned assumptions into what trusting in Christ means.

But I have shared with one Lutheran pastor who seemed for a while to be into a sort of agnostic (not deeply personally sharing with God) liberalism thing.

"Deeply personally sharing with God". Sounds more like pietism than a well-thought out approach to Christian faith. I mean you're critiquing a religious tradition you don't even really understand.

. Everything is in comparison with proper Lutheranism as he sees it. He does not first emphasize how to become real in God's love, in our nature, and how this will have us becoming; and he does not emphasize being personally ruled by God Himself in His own peace in our "hearts" (Colossians 3:15),

Of course not, that's pietism and Lutherans are generally wary of the more radical manifestations of that. It's contradictory to the way we are Christians. Confusing Law and Gospel, something more extreme pietists (like modern evangelicals and holiness churches) do routinely, is considered particularly pernicious as it deprives souls of the peace of the Gospel in favor of religious enthusiasms and even legalism.

But these are Bible basics!!! of Christianity.

As interpreted by whom? At least Lutherans can make a claim to having a faith rooted in the historical Church, rather than a purely individualistic interpretation. Lutherans are not just basing their faith on the interpretation of one man, Luther, but on a confession that was developed in a consensual and conciliar manner- the same way the Church has always worked out matters of dispute.

But I am not saying he represents correct Lutheranism. But he has stayed established with Lutherans for much of his life. And so, I would say this means that even if Lutheranism were to be more or less right, still you will need to make sure about each thing, since you do not know how any leader at any time might be mistaken or even very wrong.

A Lutheran does not have to believe Lutheranism is the best way to be a Christian in some objective sense, merely sufficient for salvation, to be a Lutheran. I think so many Lutherans are proud of their tradition because honestly it's been around for 500 years, it's relatively stable and highly livable for millions of people. It also has inspired some of the greatest cultural and artistic achievements of humanity (ever heard of J.S. Bach?).

 

[com7fy8]

You don't think one can be baptized by water into Jesus death if it is accompanied by the power of his Word? I honestly think you have too low a view of God's omnipotence on this point.

I offer that I understand that God is able to bless people in accompaniment with water baptism. I am bringing out what the Bible says will result if God is so blessing through water baptism.

And I did admit I do not personally know Martin Luther so I could really know what he means by things he has said. And I think that if people can misunderstand the Bible, they also might not really understand their own denominations' ideas and ways. They might claim they do, but if they are not perfect, they might not

And so I am advising Sword that we need to keep praying and making sure with God about things. And it can be not wise to keep holding on to things we came to understand while we were immature Christians.

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree with what Open Heart has said- these things don't pop into your head if you don't have doubts. I don't agree merely turning to the Bible is going to help: he seems to be very familiar with the Scriptures.

This a good forum to interact with Catholics and find out what they really believe- not just in terms of official doctrines but to appreciate what their faith personally means to them and how they live it out. Because some Lutheran pastors at times are less than charitable towards Catholics.

 

[com7fy8]

some Lutheran pastors at times are less than charitable towards Catholics. There's still some polemicism in some quarters, and polemicism is not the best way to engage in a search for truth, because it's often cynical and uncharitable right from the start.

Jesus says "he who is unjust in what is least is unjust also in much" (in Luke 16:10). So, if a leader is being self-righteous against people of another group, this person's self-righteousness can also mess up how the leader is relating with his or her own family and members of one's congregation, and how the person ministers and is able to understand things. Because the person's character causing self-righteous interdenominational relating can effect other things, too.

And so, in case a pastor is abusive in one way, his or her character can cause harm in other ways, too, including abusing oneself with workaholic ministering and neglecting one's family, and being more into theory instead of ministering how God's gentle and quiet love has us becoming pleasing to our Father >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

I have been told that one anti-Catholic leader was so effected by his anti-works attitude, that he did not think the epistle of James is part of the Canon. But this was because of his own agenda to stay clear of how he understood Catholicism, not because of rightly understanding what James clearly means

 

[FireDragon76]

And so, in case a pastor is abusive in one way,

I didn't say abusive, I said polemical. There is a difference.

his or her character can cause harm in other ways, too, including abusing oneself with workaholic ministering and neglecting one's family, and being more into theory instead of ministering how God's gentle and quiet love has us becoming pleasing to our Father >

This is really spurious. We aren't perfect people, just forgiven. And you aren't above our condition.

I have been told that one anti-Catholic leader was so effected by his anti-works attitude, that he did not think the epistle of James is part of the Canon.

Then you were told wrong. Again, more polemicism. Luther did not have an "anti-works" attitude, and neither do Lutherans. We just understand that our works cannot propitiate God's just wrath towards sin. Trying to count on our works as proof of our justification is an uncertain foundation, because of the corrupting nature of sin. Instead we look to God's Word expressed to us in preaching that directs us to the ordinary means of grace- the Sacraments. Here we find grace given freely for our justification. The good works we do, we do because we have been set free to love God and our neighbor according to our calling by God. They do not cause our justification or our sanctification.

But this was because of his own agenda to stay clear of how he understood Catholicism, not because of rightly understanding what James clearly means

Again you were told wrong. Luther posed the challenge of reconciling James and Paul to his students and they came up with a solution, which he agreed with.

In this day and age we should be wary of this sort of "alternative facts". We should have a higher regard for the truth. My pastor had a sermon on this last Sunday, in fact.

 

[com7fy8]

Then you were told wrong. Again, more polemicism. Luther did not have an "anti-works" attitude, and neither do Lutherans. We just understand that our works cannot propitiate God's just wrath towards sin. Trying to count on our works as proof of our justification is an uncertain foundation, because of the corrupting nature of sin.

I was told the Martin did not want the epistle of James to be part of the Canon. Was I told wrong? If not, what was his reason, that you understand?

 

[FireDragon76]

I was told the Martin did not want the epistle of James to be part of the Canon. Was I told wrong? If not, what was his reason, that you understand?

You were told wrong. Look, many renaissance scholars doubted the epistle of James was apostolic, in fact many modern scholars still do. But Luther in the end kept it in his Bible and left the judgment up to future generations. Luther considered the author of James a righteous man who puts forth God's Law. But it doesn't really give us much in the way of Gospel as Lutherans understand it. Both Law and Gospel are important to Lutherans, but we emphasize the Gospel as Good News, God's promise of the forgiveness of sins.

 

[FireDragon76]

Lutherans generally have an open canon, meaning it is not strictly defined. What we have in our modern Bibles is according to received tradition and the consensus of the Church. And even within this canon, certain books are considered more important than others. Questioning a books apostolicity or importance is what the Church has been doing off and on for centuries. It's only until the Council of Trent that Rome defined their canon, but before then the questions of canonicity were open. Even Luther's opponent, Cardinal Cajetan, questioned some of the books in the Bible.

This is also true of many Reformed churches as well, they technically have an open canon also.

 

[com7fy8]

You were told wrong. Look, many renaissance scholars doubted the epistle of James was apostolic, in fact many modern scholars still do. But Luther in the end kept it in his Bible and left the judgment up to future generations. Luther considered the author of James a righteous man who puts forth God's Law. But it doesn't really give us much in the way of Gospel as Lutherans understand it. Both Law and Gospel are important to Lutherans, but we emphasize the Gospel as Good News, God's promise of the forgiveness of sins.

Thank you for making yourself clear, what you mean

But it doesn't really give us much in the way of Gospel as Lutherans understand it.

To me, James is very thorough about all which Jesus means by His Gospel. So, then, I admit, I do not see how people could think James does not give us much in the way of the Gospel. But possibly I do not know what you mean.

Now, James does not say anything about the death and burial and resurrection of Jesus; so in this way it does not say the Gospel. But the purpose of the death and burial and resurrection of Jesus, I would say, is thoroughly given . . . so we can get and live Jesus Christ's love meaning and not only doctrinal precision and correct practices.

James confronts many wrong things, but with his confrontations he gives encouragement to so much so better to have, instead, and which Jesus means by His life and message and death and burial and resurrection > the Gospel's love meaning is there.

And, of course, I can't speak for what a Lutheran believes and understands, if I don't personally know each one. So, to Sword I would advise to let each person speak for oneself, and seek the love application of each scripture, in any case.