What if a gay family comes to the Church?

[HalupkiMonster]

"We?" oh boy....

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I may be a San Francisco Giants fan and Niners fan, but don't get any ideas!

 

[Mariya116]

Zgadzam sie, bardzo atrakcyjne! Jedzenie jest rowniez dobre!

(I originally said "Polish," because my grandparents were Polish, until I remembered that my username is the Slovak variation of the word, because that's what my Slovak grandpa called them!)

In polish they're called something like gulompki, but they've always been halubki to my family. (It's like arguing with a Ukrainian whether they're "pierogi" or "veryneki.") Eastern Europe, amirite or amirite?

It's "golabki" in Polish, but the exact same stuff. Do you like yours with sour cream or tomato sauce?

 

[HalupkiMonster]

It's "golabki" in Polish, but the exact same stuff. Do you like yours with sour cream or tomato sauce?

Babcia always made them with tomato sauce, but sour cream sounds delicious! I'll have to try them! (The little old Russian ladies at my Church make them all the time, it's fantastic!)

 

[astein]

I mean the terminology is bad. The truth of the state of such people is that they suffer from a particular passion, an unnatural attraction to the same sex, in spite of the clear biological and anthropological purposes of sex - let alone the mysteries we do NOT know about as to why God created two sexes.
Thus, the most accurate language of our time is not to say "I am/He is gay" but to say "I/He suffer(s) from same-sex attraction." once that is said, the true nature of the problem is brought out "of the closet".

So no one is "rejecting" you here, we are telling you that this is a passion that one must renounce and struggle against, just as the alcoholic or inappropriate content addict or man who can't control his anger must struggle with their passions. The one thing you can't do is say "My passion is NOT a passion; it is a good and beautiful thing". Then you would have to be corrected. We all have things standing between us and God. None of us are better than you. If that's clear, then you are welcome!

Well thank you friend. One is certainly at liberty to express their point of view, and it is very valuable when God is the source of that view. For we are all called to follow and obey God solely. It is a continual growth process growing closer unto God unto that great and glorious day.

 

[astein]

People who identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender should just come to church if they are interested. Don't worry about changing before you come to Christ and his church. If you desire to be part of the Body of Christ, which means repentance for all who come to Christ, the Holy Spirit will help you through the grace given in the Holy Mysteries. We need grace, encounter with God.

M.

Yes!

 

[RKO]

In my opinion, this is a very important question for all churches. My question, if it hasn't already been asked ( haven't read through 5 pages of responses yet,) Is the very fact that they call themselves a family a sin in the church? Is the raising of children in a gay marriage a sin? (As a Catholic, i am sort of lumping the RCC and the EOC together in this when I say "church," JUST FOR THE MOMENT THOUGH, Don't get excited! ;-)

OR, are we assuming behaviors that are sinful in their lifestyle? Because I don't think either Church assumes sinful activity that isn't confessed or public.
Or, does the church decide by the very nature of the "gay family" that the parents are committing sins?

EDIT: beginning at page 9 and reading back, it appears you guys are WAY past my question already. I'll keep reading, and I'm sure it's been discussed. Feel free to ignore!

 

[ArmyMatt]

as Fr Hopko once wisely said, "Lady Gaga may have been born that way, but by God's grace she doesn't need to stay that way."

 

[MKJ]

In any discussion, you must distinguish between "being gay" as in "experiencing sexual desire for the same sex" and as in "acting on those desires". That's one reason why "being gay" is such terrible language. It is at the heart of such confusion.

TBO means that acting on those desires is incompatible with Orthodoxy. Becoming Orthodox means taking up a difficult and possibly lifelong struggle AGAINST those desires.

Does anybody not get that?

It is awkward, but I think there can be good reasons to use both types of phrasing, depending on the context.

It is not the only time we use that kind of construction - we talk about being an addict even if someone is not actually using drugs, or even things like being a diabetic or other medical conditions. None of these are ontological categories, and they do not define a persons reality absolutly, but they can define it in a limited but important way for the people involved. And not defining it, straight out, can cause other problems for those people.

I think the best answer is just to clarify what we mean when it becomes necessary.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That is TOO HILARIOUS! I must've missed that! LOL!

as Fr Hopko once wisely said, "Lady Gaga may have been born that way, but by God's grace she doesn't need to stay that way."

 

[RKO]

That is TOO HILARIOUS! I must've missed that! LOL!

If this is a thread derailment, ignore it, but do you guys believe that Homosexuality can be changed? If so can heterosexuality be changed? I am completely in agreement with the Church loving the gay and expecting them to control their desires and not act on them. I have a real hard time believing that I can be internally changed from hetero to gay, and for that reason, vice versa.

 

[rusmeister]

It is awkward, but I think there can be good reasons to use both types of phrasing, depending on the context.

It is not the only time we use that kind of construction - we talk about being an addict even if someone is not actually using drugs, or even things like being a diabetic or other medical conditions. None of these are ontological categories, and they do not define a persons reality absolutly, but they can define it in a limited but important way for the people involved. And not defining it, straight out, can cause other problems for those people.

I think the best answer is just to clarify what we mean when it becomes necessary.

It becomes necessary every ten seconds in any intelligent conversation about this phenomenon.

If "gay" were an accurate term describing what exactly they are, as "alcoholic" clearly means "a person who is addicted to alcohol" then I could agree with what you are saying.
But it is not even THAT honest. It is meant to definitely imply "We are friendly, smiling, joyful" as a rider clause to "we want physical erotic relations with the same sex" while using a word that has throughout the history of the English language meant only the former until my own childhood, using false language to promote the morality of the act.

Unless we state the truth, that they suffer from a passion, that the passion is negative and not positive, we cannot uphold truth in speaking. They have co-opted the language; we must take it back. By force, as determinedly as they repeated their lies, we must repeat the truth.

 

[rusmeister]

If this is a thread derailment, ignore it, but do you guys believe that Homosexuality can be changed? If so can heterosexuality be changed? I am completely in agreement with the Church loving the gay and expecting them to control their desires and not act on them. I have a real hard time believing that I can be internally changed from hetero to gay, and for that reason, vice versa.

The very terms are false, RKO.
There is normal sexual desire of a man for a woman, and vice-versa, and then there is perverted desire, desire turned from its natural object. They are NOT on equal footing, any more than the person who wishes to stuff food up their nose is on the same footing with a person who has the common sense and desire to eat using the mouth. The terms you use place the two on an equal footing and so are false. One is normal, though it must be confined to marriage, and the other is highly abnormal.

Whether a person can be cured of such an insane ailment is dubious. Can an alcoholic be cured? Many, evidently, cannot, and must perforce abstain from alcohol for life, or go down the drain. So I propose no earthly cure, unless God grant it to them. (Note how the X-Men films successfully pushed their views.)
If a person comes to realize that such desires ought to be rejected and struggled against, they need Christ, plain and simple. We cannot "cure" them; it is delusion to think that on our own power we can do anything. It is only by the grace of God that, on occasion, a person ceases suffering from this passion. But AFAIK it is not common.

 

[inconsequential]

If this is a thread derailment, ignore it, but do you guys believe that Homosexuality can be changed? If so can heterosexuality be changed? I am completely in agreement with the Church loving the gay and expecting them to control their desires and not act on them. I have a real hard time believing that I can be internally changed from hetero to gay, and for that reason, vice versa.

I think the majority here regard it as being entirely a psychological issue with NO physiological aspect. I don't feel that way but from what I've gathered over the many threads on the issue, many do.

 

[Fotina]

If this is a thread derailment, ignore it, but do you guys believe that Homosexuality can be changed? If so can heterosexuality be changed? I am completely in agreement with the Church loving the gay and expecting them to control their desires and not act on them. I have a real hard time believing that I can be internally changed from hetero to gay, and for that reason, vice versa.

With God all things are possible.

Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind - John 9

 

[MKJ]

It becomes necessary every ten seconds in any intelligent conversation about this phenomenon.

If "gay" were an accurate term describing what exactly they are, as "alcoholic" clearly means "a person who is addicted to alcohol" then I could agree with what you are saying.
But it is not even THAT honest. It is meant to definitely imply "We are friendly, smiling, joyful" as a rider clause to "we want physical erotic relations with the same sex" while using a word that has throughout the history of the English language meant only the former until my own childhood, using false language to promote the morality of the act.

Unless we state the truth, that they suffer from a passion, that the passion is negative and not positive, we cannot uphold truth in speaking. They have co-opted the language; we must take it back. By force, as determinedly as they repeated their lies, we must repeat the truth.

Yes, I know your argument - I do not think all changes in language are negative, I think many are neutral.

In this case, I think that for some - primarily IME people within Christianity - an acceptance of the idea of being gay (or substitute any other word that has a similar idea) is important to their spiritual health, in much the same way for others saying I am an addict is an important factor in their spiritual health. I have known several people who did not do this, choosing instead to stick with the language of same sex attraction, with very negative results.

Most of the other widely used terms for homosexuals, aside from homosexual and gay, are rather inappropriate or hurtful, so there are not a lot of other contenders.

The very terms are false, RKO.
There is normal sexual desire of a man for a woman, and vice-versa, and then there is perverted desire, desire turned from its natural object. They are NOT on equal footing, any more than the person who wishes to stuff food up their nose is on the same footing with a person who has the common sense and desire to eat using the mouth. The terms you use place the two on an equal footing and so are false. One is normal, though it must be confined to marriage, and the other is highly abnormal.

Whether a person can be cured of such an insane ailment is dubious. Can an alcoholic be cured? Many, evidently, cannot, and must perforce abstain from alcohol for life, or go down the drain. So I propose no earthly cure, unless God grant it to them. (Note how the X-Men films successfully pushed their views.)
If a person comes to realize that such desires ought to be rejected and struggled against, they need Christ, plain and simple. We cannot "cure" them; it is delusion to think that on our own power we can do anything. It is only by the grace of God that, on occasion, a person ceases suffering from this passion. But AFAIK it is not common.

If you want to talk about the dialogue with the larger culture though, remember that there is a large group out there that really thinks that it is possible to cure the problem, or that it is something entered into out of perversity, and that most of that group is Christians. These people really do think such things can be cured and have programs to do so, and unfortunately many people think this is the general view among Christians.

I think that is what RKO was thinking was being said.

 

[Dorothea]

If this is a thread derailment, ignore it, but do you guys believe that Homosexuality can be changed? If so can heterosexuality be changed? I am completely in agreement with the Church loving the gay and expecting them to control their desires and not act on them. I have a real hard time believing that I can be internally changed from hetero to gay, and for that reason, vice versa.

I believe what Fr. Tom is saying is that a person who has same-sex attractions can, with God's help, abstain from homosexual activity. We know that Fr. Seraphim Rose did, and I'm sure there are others out there who do that we don't know about.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That was one aspect of the X-Men film franchise that bugged me to death. It was a constant drum-beating of "I was born this way/nature not nurture 100%"....and it was NOT subtle! What a shame. I love X-Men and love the story lines. I think the idea of being marginalized and not fitting in is fine because that could apply to anyone or anything, but the "cure" and "can't change me" aspect was in-your-face gay agenda

Whether a person can be cured of such an insane ailment is dubious. Can an alcoholic be cured? Many, evidently, cannot, and must perforce abstain from alcohol for life, or go down the drain. So I propose no earthly cure, unless God grant it to them. (Note how the X-Men films successfully pushed their views.)
.

 

[Kristos]

I love "Wreck It Ralph". Anyone know what I'm talking about?

 

[Gwendolyn]

I love "Wreck It Ralph". Anyone know what I'm talking about?

"I’m bad, and that’s good. I will never be good, and that’s not bad. There’s no one I’d rather be then me."

I think it was more about helping people see that they all have a role to play in the great scheme of things than it was about trying to affirm sin.