What I LOVE and HATE about the Orthodox Church! (From a Protestant)

[FenderTL5]

that's actually nothing like the Orthodoxy I have seen..
..I know more than a few non-white and non middle class folks who have become Orthodox.

Agree.

Our parish is still roughly half Greek (immigrant/offspring families) but we have several, as in more than 5 or 6 extended families from middle eastern countries (Lebanon, Jordan, Syria) as well as a couple of families from Egypt. The 'Americans' are a mix of white/black.
The 'Our Father..' is usually recited in four languages during our Sunday Liturgy, every Sunday.
Our Priest makes sure that new converts are fully catechized before Chrismation, it took almost a year and a half for my daughter and I, my wife just under a year as she joined later. I think that's typical - but the catechism classes are open to anyone. We literally just 'showed up' without an invitation by reading it on the parish website when we first started attending catechism.

 

[ArmyMatt]

one of my Godbrothers is from Africa. and Fr Stephen Powley, a Greek priest who runs OCPM, has explained Orthodoxy's success in the prison system, many of whom are not white or middle class.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It does not reflect the experience of our parish either.

Most of the families who were part of the founding of the Church (and whose families remain) were Greek immigrants, mostly poor at the time. They have mostly done well for themselves and few of them are poor.

However, as for people coming in, a minority are "white, married, middle class". I can only think of a very few. We have people from so many countries, here and there. Our parish is a fair ethnic mix, considering it was founded by Greeks. We've had only two couples I can think of come in together in the past few years, and one of them was not white. We've had more singles. We've had a street person attend with us who was welcomed, and they did quite a bit to try to help her (including giving her a home) but it backfired (she took advantage of the offer and the home was sacked and ruined). She still shows up sometimes and is welcomed, regardless, though albeit not given things that could cause more problems.

Funny, there was a VERY "white, middle class couple" with a child who showed up recently, were warmly welcomed, and they decided to go elsewhere. We usually get everyone else staying though.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I love the idea of synergia, but I think its more of an ideal than a reality. The unfortunate thing is many Orthodox turn it into Gospel. If all that is needed is a "course correction" to get Adam back on track to godhood, a little cooperation with God, that's a real misunderstanding of the human condition.

this is also not our teaching on synergia at all, in theology or practice.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't think this...

That's about the opposite tone of the Orthodox Church, which is more like the Kung Fu movie where the novitiate stands outside the monastery waiting for Master Po to open the door, to prove his worthiness.

...

is just about ethnic background and socio-economics, though, is it?

Non-Orthodox often get a "everyone else is lesser/unworthy" vibe from Orthodox sources. I have certainly come across it.

Now, this is not true of every Orthodox person. Many are lovely. Some of them are in this thread. But condescension, patronising or dismissive comments, rudeness, exclusion... yeah, those are definitely there too. And every time I encounter them, I end up walking away thinking, "If that's Orthodoxy, I don't want anything to do with it."

I wouldn't make it as a Buddhist novice. I'd end up looking at the closed door and thinking, Sod it, enlightenment isn't confined to this temple. And if what non-Orthodox encounter of Orthodoxy is metaphorically closed doors, likely many will have the same reaction.

 

[FireDragon76]

My parish had alot of ex-Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Baptists, all from very similar ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds, and many were over-educated. In fact it seemed like a very large minority of the church was ex-Protestant. They were also the most active.

The atmosphere was like Rod Dreher's Crunchy Cons, if you are familiar with that. A strange mixture of religious conservativism and selective hippy tastes and values when it doesn't threaten their privileged social status.

 

[FireDragon76]

Non-Orthodox often get a "everyone else is lesser/unworthy" vibe from Orthodox sources. I have certainly come across it.

Indeed. Though to be fair, the Orthodox church I went to tried to be hospitable in some ways, especially making sure we always had antidoron (even though in later years I couldn't eat it). I just don't think they are willing to have the openness to be truly hospitable.

That's one reason I liked that hymn "All are Welcome", because it talks about hospitality as a way of doing theology, not just a pious affectation. This is something the Orthodox Church, because of Symphonia and state religion, has not had to really deal with.

Now, this is not true of every Orthodox person.

I remember little old people that would talk to me and my mom during the service, and one was a retired manager at Toys R Us, his family was refugees from Russia a long time ago. But I didn't get that warmth from any Protestant converts, including the priest.

But condescension, patronising or dismissive comments, rudeness, exclusion... yeah, those are definitely there too. And every time I encounter them, I end up walking away thinking, "If that's Orthodoxy, I don't want anything to do with it."

Imagine putting up with that for years, gradually embracing it, then looking in the mirror of God's Law and realizing how far away from God you really are, how wretchedly lonely, blind, and patethic you have become - so you gradually start to push back away from it and you start to question things yourself. You step into the temple, feel the loneliness of a God who is mediated through a hierarchy you have bought into and that you are distant from, and who has judged you as an outsider and not an insider. They can't understand why you can't just go along with them and put on a happy face like all the other Crunchy Cons that are so drunk with enthusiasm to be in their boutique religion like them. It literally drove me insane in the end. The only way I could get past that was walking away from it and finding Jesus elsewhere.

The only really powerful experiences of God I have had, have been in Protestant and one liberal Catholic churches. The orthodox church was all mental and theoretical. Beautiful, "glorious" (in the Lutheran sense) theology that doesn't work out so well in practice, at least my practice.

 

[KernelPanic]

My parish had alot of ex-Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Baptists, all from very similar ethnic and socioeconomic backgrounds, and many were over-educated. In fact it seemed like a very large minority of the church was ex-Protestant. They were also the most active.

The atmosphere was like Rod Dreher's Crunchy Cons, if you are familiar with that. A strange mixture of religious conservativism and selective hippy tastes and values when it doesn't threaten their privileged social status.

Yeah, the parish I was attending was similar. Almost a very 1950s America feel. It wasn't in the middle of a field either, it was right next to a large university.

 

[rusmeister]

I don't think this...

...

is just about ethnic background and socio-economics, though, is it?

Non-Orthodox often get a "everyone else is lesser/unworthy" vibe from Orthodox sources. I have certainly come across it.

Now, this is not true of every Orthodox person. Many are lovely. Some of them are in this thread. But condescension, patronising or dismissive comments, rudeness, exclusion... yeah, those are definitely there too. And every time I encounter them, I end up walking away thinking, "If that's Orthodoxy, I don't want anything to do with it."

I wouldn't make it as a Buddhist novice. I'd end up looking at the closed door and thinking, Sod it, enlightenment isn't confined to this temple. And if what non-Orthodox encounter of Orthodoxy is metaphorically closed doors, likely many will have the same reaction.

One thing that might "turn off" in vain is a certainty that one is right. The modern world has a positive allergy, through the doctrine of pluralism, that urges that NOBODY is ultimately right, to the concept of certainty through the choice of faith. ("I am certain because I have chosen to believe x".)

I would urge you not to take that as condescension (though an attitude that "You must be stupid...." would be condescending). It is absolutely normal for a person to think he or she is right. I think the question is whether they think you are merely mistaken, or are incapable of perceiving what they are certain is true. The former is not arrogance; the latter is.

 

[rusmeister]

Indeed. Though to be fair, the Orthodox church I went to tried to be hospitable in some ways, especially making sure we always had antidoron (even though in later years I couldn't eat it). I just don't think they are willing to have the openness to be truly hospitable.

That's one reason I liked that hymn "All are Welcome", because it talks about hospitality as a way of doing theology, not just a pious affectation. This is something the Orthodox Church, because of Symphonia and state religion, has not had to really deal with.



I remember little old people that would talk to me and my mom during the service, and one was a retired manager at Toys R Us, his family was refugees from Russia a long time ago. But I didn't get that warmth from any Protestant converts, including the priest.



Imagine putting up with that for years, gradually embracing it, then looking in the mirror of God's Law and realizing how far away from God you really are, how wretchedly lonely, blind, and patethic you have become - so you gradually start to push back away from it and you start to question things yourself. You step into the temple, feel the loneliness of a God who is mediated through a hierarchy you have bought into and that you are distant from, and who has judged you as an outsider and not an insider. They can't understand why you can't just go along with them and put on a happy face like all the other Crunchy Cons that are so drunk with enthusiasm to be in their boutique religion like them. It literally drove me insane in the end. The only way I could get past that was walking away from it and finding Jesus elsewhere.

The only really powerful experiences of God I have had, have been in Protestant and one liberal Catholic churches. The orthodox church was all mental and theoretical. Beautiful, "glorious" (in the Lutheran sense) theology that doesn't work out so well in practice, at least my practice.

This is something that is rather alien to my experience. My own experience is largely opposite to yours. Orthodox worship involves the senses, and not only the mind, and no one pays any attention to the worship of others.

 

[~Anastasia~]

This is something that is rather alien to my experience. My own experience is largely opposite to yours. Orthodox worship involves the senses, and not only the mind, and no one pays any attention to the worship of others.

I have to agree.

Fire, I'm really sorry for your experiences. I don't know if you were in an anamalous parish or if you didn't interact well with it, especially given that you've stated that you are opposed to the Orthodox insistence that couples who live together and have sexual relations ought to be married.

But while I've had a few "highs" from Protestant worship, sometimes emotional I'd bet but I believe also a few genuine worshipful moments, I certainly don't find Orthodoxy lacking by comparison. Sometimes I get the "feel good" kind there too, but more often I get a real sense of the profound, the awesome, the majestic. And I encounter Christ in a very direct way.

I am not surprised if someone walks in, observes others, and through that assumes that we have a mostly intellectual response or are just "going through the motions", especially if they are used to more demonstrative worship (though Orthodoxy is also demonstrative in deep ways). But it is unfair to merely observe a person praying and think you know the (poor) quality of his spiritual communion with God.

But if you were there for some time, I really am sorry. I just simply can't relate to the idea of a parish like that. And while I'm mostly at my own, I have travelled and visited others, and found them not unlike mine in the important aspects. (Except a really huge parish is still more impersonal than I'd like, just as it is with any very large denominational fellowship.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

I don't think this...

...

is just about ethnic background and socio-economics, though, is it?

Non-Orthodox often get a "everyone else is lesser/unworthy" vibe from Orthodox sources. I have certainly come across it.

Now, this is not true of every Orthodox person. Many are lovely. Some of them are in this thread. But condescension, patronising or dismissive comments, rudeness, exclusion... yeah, those are definitely there too. And every time I encounter them, I end up walking away thinking, "If that's Orthodoxy, I don't want anything to do with it."

I wouldn't make it as a Buddhist novice. I'd end up looking at the closed door and thinking, Sod it, enlightenment isn't confined to this temple. And if what non-Orthodox encounter of Orthodoxy is metaphorically closed doors, likely many will have the same reaction.

This is something that concerns me.

On one hand, some people really do express themselves in ways that would be guaranteed to push away any seeker or inquirer who would be put off by their prideful arrogance. These are most often new converts, or those in splinter groups, that I see (though I've known a monastic or two to come across that way - I can't judge their heart actually though).

Rus brings out some good points too. In these days, people consider it anything from arrogant, to prideful, to unloving, to downright hateful to have an belief or conviction that differs from their own, etc. I'm not saying you are doing that, just that it is a developing ethos of the times, in the US. I'm not really sure about other places, but I do see indications that we aren't exclusive with that social tendency.

Words can be a problem too. The very Creed states "I believe in ONE holy, catholic, and apostolic Church." It wasn't offensive to them - it was expected.

When we say the same thing, and mean it, all kinds of assumptions are read into that. It takes a paragraph or three sometimes to explain a single word, and we don't always have that time.

So unless we continually qualify ourselves, people "hear" all sorts of things we don't really mean. And sometimes that seems to be converts, who might take up their (mis)understanding and run with it.

It's a mess, and I don't know how to fix it. Certain things we cannot deny - they are our beliefs and always have been, and people who get offended that we won't change them, well, I'm glad we don't. On the other hand, some quotes by the Saints were made in a certain point in history and don't mean exactly what they seem to say if applied to an entirely different Christian landscape.

And there are those whose position is more to guard the Church, who may speak more strongly. These aren't the voices inquirers need to hear though, unless they plan to come in and remake the Church, which I think is almost never the case. Those voices are intended for other ears.

All I know is that it is easy to create a wrong impression, and there's a lot of it as a result.

 

[Tigger45]

I was a catechumen at approximately the same time @~Anastasia~ was and many here at TAW were and have been friendly and helpful with questions concerning E.O. and it's had a profound influence on my understanding of and walk with Christ. I even had a very real and tangible experience of Divine energy during a DL one time which I asked the priest about and all he commented was that he'd heard 'that' before from others. His response kinda took me back considering if God Himself wanted to relate to me in such a profound and tangible way I'd think a priest would be interested in helping me understand better what and why this had happened. I would like to add that Orthodox priests are some of the busiest people I know and would hate to misrepresent him or them and often when I do attend service he calls me out by name and says "just keep coming". All in all my experience with Orthodoxy pretty much shadows @FireDragon76 examples.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I was a catechumen at approximately the same time @~Anastasia~ was and many here at TAW were and have been friendly and helpful with questions concerning E.O. and it's had a profound influence on my understanding of and walk with Christ. I even had a very real and tangible experience of Divine energy during a DL one time which I asked the priest about and all he commented was that he'd heard 'that' before from others. His response kinda took me back considering if God Himself wanted to relate to me in such a profound and tangible way I'd think a priest would be interested in helping me understand better what and why this had happened. I would like to add that Orthodox priests are some of the busiest people I know and would hate to misrepresent him or them and often when I do attend service he calls me out by name and says "just keep coming". All in all my experience with Orthodoxy pretty much shadows @FireDragon76 examples.

I will just say that it's very likely when one has an "experience" ... the biggest concern is usually the effect it has on the person. Making too much of it or highlighting it or even talking about it can be a tremendous temptation to pride.

I know of a wise spiritual father who would very matter-of-factly explain briefly what had happened, and then forbid the person from telling anyone about it.

I only say this to illustrate that such things are purposely treated very casually. Apparently they are more common than I was at first led to believe, but they should never be focused on overmuch.

Your priest probably IS terribly busy. But if you focus on "why" God does such a thing, unless the answer is anything other than "He wanted to extend grace to you" and if it focuses on ANYTHING in yourself, it is not a good thing to pursue.

I hope that makes sense.

And yes, we just keep coming to Church. We just keep praying. We just keep receiving the Eucharist. We just keep repenting. And God does His work in us.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I was a catechumen at approximately the same time @~Anastasia~ was and many here at TAW were and have been friendly and helpful with questions concerning E.O. and it's had a profound influence on my understanding of and walk with Christ. I even had a very real and tangible experience of Divine energy during a DL one time which I asked the priest about and all he commented was that he'd heard 'that' before from others. His response kinda took me back considering if God Himself wanted to relate to me in such a profound and tangible way I'd think a priest would be interested in helping me understand better what and why this had happened. I would like to add that Orthodox priests are some of the busiest people I know and would hate to misrepresent him or them and often when I do attend service he calls me out by name and says "just keep coming". All in all my experience with Orthodoxy pretty much shadows @FireDragon76 examples.

and the statement of the priest is the appropriate one to have. when we have those experiences, we are first to put them out of our mind. the devil can come as an angel of light, and an experience can seem to be of God when it is not. now I am not saying that yours was not, but the way to go forward is exactly what Anastasia said. keep coming to Church, keep praying, keep receiving, and if that experience was of God, it will bear good fruit. and God will let you know.

by the way, it is great to see you again

 

[ArmyMatt]

This is something that is rather alien to my experience. My own experience is largely opposite to yours. Orthodox worship involves the senses, and not only the mind, and no one pays any attention to the worship of others.

right. if others are paying attention to you, they are not paying attention to Christ and they are in the wrong.

 

[Paidiske]

One thing that might "turn off" in vain is a certainty that one is right. The modern world has a positive allergy, through the doctrine of pluralism, that urges that NOBODY is ultimately right, to the concept of certainty through the choice of faith. ("I am certain because I have chosen to believe x".)

I would urge you not to take that as condescension (though an attitude that "You must be stupid...." would be condescending). It is absolutely normal for a person to think he or she is right. I think the question is whether they think you are merely mistaken, or are incapable of perceiving what they are certain is true. The former is not arrogance; the latter is.

I think we're talking past one another, Rus. I'm not talking about holding one's beliefs with integrity, and disagreeing with others. I do that plenty myself! I'm talking about an attitude... let me see if I can illustrate the difference with practical examples.

Ok. Here are two comments, drawn from real life, from people who were both talking to me about their disagreement with my vocation.

"Well, it's alright for you girls to play at ministry, since you're not in a real church anyway."

"Even though I don't believe God calls women to priesthood, I appreciate that you're being obedient to God as best you understand it, and I believe that God will bless that willingness and be at work in you, and that only God knows the end of your journey."

In neither comment did the person speaking compromise their conviction or water it down; but one found three different ways to belittle me in one sentence ("girls," "play" "not a real church anyway"), and another looked for the good and sought to be encouraging, trusting that God was at work in me and that my sincere commitment to Christ would bear fruit.

It's that latter generosity, that willingness to look for and celebrate the good in a mixed economy, that openness to recognise that not everybody's pilgrimage will be exactly like mine but that doesn't mean God's not at work in it, that I experience as gracious and loving. And when that is absent, when it becomes all about the put-downs and smallness of vision of God at work, highlighting what is lacking rather than what is good, and so forth, that I experience that as deadening.

It's not about the truth claims, but about the attitude with which the truth claims encounter the world, if that makes sense? And sometimes communities build up a pocket culture in which certain attitudes are reinforced, even though they may not actually be the spiritually healthiest attitudes, and I suspect that that's what both FireDragon and I are reflecting on.

Fortunately, I don't actually think that pocket culture of negative attitudes is intrinsic to Orthodoxy, but it does seem (from my experience) that certain communities are prone to it, for various reasons which might bear reflecting on.

 

[rusmeister]

I think we're talking past one another, Rus. I'm not talking about holding one's beliefs with integrity, and disagreeing with others. I do that plenty myself! I'm talking about an attitude... let me see if I can illustrate the difference with practical examples.

Ok. Here are two comments, drawn from real life, from people who were both talking to me about their disagreement with my vocation.

"Well, it's alright for you girls to play at ministry, since you're not in a real church anyway."

"Even though I don't believe God calls women to priesthood, I appreciate that you're being obedient to God as best you understand it, and I believe that God will bless that willingness and be at work in you, and that only God knows the end of your journey."

In neither comment did the person speaking compromise their conviction or water it down; but one found three different ways to belittle me in one sentence ("girls," "play" "not a real church anyway"), and another looked for the good and sought to be encouraging, trusting that God was at work in me and that my sincere commitment to Christ would bear fruit.

It's that latter generosity, that willingness to look for and celebrate the good in a mixed economy, that openness to recognise that not everybody's pilgrimage will be exactly like mine but that doesn't mean God's not at work in it, that I experience as gracious and loving. And when that is absent, when it becomes all about the put-downs and smallness of vision of God at work, highlighting what is lacking rather than what is good, and so forth, that I experience that as deadening.

It's not about the truth claims, but about the attitude with which the truth claims encounter the world, if that makes sense? And sometimes communities build up a pocket culture in which certain attitudes are reinforced, even though they may not actually be the spiritually healthiest attitudes, and I suspect that that's what both FireDragon and I are reflecting on.

Fortunately, I don't actually think that pocket culture of negative attitudes is intrinsic to Orthodoxy, but it does seem (from my experience) that certain communities are prone to it, for various reasons which might bear reflecting on.

In considering the examples from your life that you offer, I certainly agree that the first is itself childish. The second, however, is more affirmation than challenging. It doesn't express any disagreement, except to say "...I don't believe that...", and is preceded by "Even though", which is a conjunction that joins the clause with one that contrasts it (I am a career ESLteacher; I have to be very clear on these things).

I think that one may express disagreement that both does not affirm what one sees as the other's error and does so politely and considerately. However, when a person's life is invested in the error, it is all but impossible for them to hear even the most reasonable criticism. My SIL is so invested in the American public school system, and she literally broke relations with me because I expressed (however politely) my view that that system is destructive to traditional human life and freedom, and why. So the question of whether one can handle polite disagreement that does not seek to destroy relationship is very relevant. Most people really can't, in my opinion. Emotions are a powerful influence.

 

[FireDragon76]

Fire, I'm really sorry for your experiences. I don't know if you were in an anamalous parish or if you didn't interact well with it, especially given that you've stated that you are opposed to the Orthodox insistence that couples who live together and have sexual relations ought to be married.

That happened some time after the experiences I described. I was not a rebel from the beginning, I saw ugly and narrow attitudes and it lead me to question the exclusivist claims I was being presented with, and I realized in the end the church has no particular infallibility. I became a cafeteria convert, not unlike many churchgoers. Being a "cafeteria Christian" can be very healthy because it forces you to be discerning. Still, I simply preferred to worship God in an orthodox church- I was tired and exhausted, and Orthodoxy had successfully destroyed my faith in any other Christian church. But I wasn't going to let it control my life or jeopardize my sanity.

Sometimes I get the "feel good" kind there too, but more often I get a real sense of the profound, the awesome, the majestic.

I don't deny Orthodox worship and faith has that, and that can be alluring. But those aren't the sort of spiritual experiences I am talking about. Recall that I said the Orthodox took away my confidence in any other church. My experience in the Lutheran church was the Holy Spirit restoring that sense of confidence to me that Orthodoxy took away, in a dramatic way. Like a Damascus Road type experience.

I remember one time walking out of a service on Pentecost and the pastor had prayed a prayer about the Holy Spirit and being stunned and not sure what happened to me. As he prayed I was overwhelmed by the feeling of a presence and the feeling that someone was speaking or communicating to me in a way beyond words, like knowledge was being put into my mind, and I walked out of the service with a sense of peace I had not felt in a long time. I just sat in the memorial garden with my partner for about half an hour nearly speechless, because all the cynicism I had been struggling with was taken away.

And from a Lutheran standpoint, awe is insufficient. The fruit of Christian faith is self-sacrificial love, which in my mind means real vulnerability. Orthodox Christians, in my experience, are weak on understanding what vulnerability is. It's hard to be vulnerable when you are so committed to a Platonic idealist notion of the Church. The attitude of unchanging traditionalism is symptomatic of that.

I am not surprised if someone walks in, observes others, and through that assumes that we have a mostly intellectual response or are just "going through the motions", especially if they are used to more demonstrative worship (though Orthodoxy is also demonstrative in deep ways).

That's not really what the problem was. I loved Orthodox worship (and Lutherans generally have very similar attitudes to worship as do the Orthodox, so that isn't the issue). But like Paidiske's examples, I encountered some ugly attitudes that I was taking on as my own. I don't encounter that in my Lutheran church.

One thing that might "turn off" in vain is a certainty that one is right. The modern world has a positive allergy, through the doctrine of pluralism, that urges that NOBODY is ultimately right, to the concept of certainty through the choice of faith. ("I am certain because I have chosen to believe x".)

I am not a relativist. However, our theology should not be framed as a reaction to the modern world. I believe in dialogue, not polemicism. I think that's what Jesus did too- he asked alot of questions, didn't he? The only people he was firm with were people that were abusing others.

Being a follower of Jesus is not about being right and putting a righteousness feather in our cap, it's about being loving. Truth and love are not opposed.

On the contrary, fundamentalism gravitates towards polemicism. It's an oppressive, graceless way to live.

 

[Lukaris]

The unchanging traditions of Orthodoxy represents consistency to my understanding. It is in the west that former rigidity from faulty theology has resulted in its own about face to blending in with worldliness.

The faulty theology I mean is original sin in which depravity defines all that is in God's creation negating all aspects of what God considered good when He created the universe. Now the west wants to redefine everything to "get along" with everybody. What we see is a shift from a theological absolutism to secular absolutism.

Honestly, I have no idea how
western churches interpret Romans 2 in which St. Paul clearly reminds us that all people still have a conscience and are not totally depraved. The Lord knows those who do His will in their good works and those who do not ( I also think John 3:16-22 illustrates this. Like I do not think the Dali Llama will go to hell, but I do not feel like embracing Buddhism.

I think if western Christianity had not fallen into its former trap it would not be so susceptible to its current insecurity and confusion in its faith.

Lastly, Orthodox Christians are no better or worse as western Christians per person or anybody for that matter. There is also no reason to change with the times and compromise our faith.