What have we DONE!!!

Linet Kihonge

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For a long time I decided to read the Bible as a whole and I learned, a few things made a lot of sense but not with a concrete foundation, it was as if I was reading, half truths and half something else. It was not until I learned that the Original scripture never had numbered lines, it was actually written in prose and perhaps a chapter for every new occurrence. However, when I read without the numbered lines or verses, I saw who the message was about. I saw another side of what I believe it was like finally "shaking hands with the LORD" wondering where he's been all this while. So now, I keep asking myself, did we disrupt the full revelation of God to mankind by numbering the lines???

It's even worse, because like the City on the Hill so was the Word, and we all thought we knew better.
The Poets were the Catholics
The Dancers were the Protestants
The Soldiers were the Orthodox
The Elders were the Jews
The Young Ones were the Spirit-Filled
The Rich man was the World
The Poor man was the Martyr


Let's read the Bible as a whole, lets go back to the one who inspired it.
 
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Linet Kihonge

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Can you give an example of where the meaning changes by taking out the numbers?

Please consider the message: (Jhn11)

When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.

When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. “Where have you laid him?” he asked.

“Come and see, Lord,” they replied.
Jesus wept.
Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

:(
 
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Linet Kihonge

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The Miracle:

Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”

When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

:/
 
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ac28

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For reading purposes, What you say might be best. For study purposes, I would want the verse numbers.

On biblegateway.com, the AV is done in paragraphs but still has the verse numbers. That might be the best of both worlds. This is available in book form as the Cambridge Paragraph Bible.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=gen+1&version=AKJV
 
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Linet Kihonge

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Yes, there's something unique about scripture without no.s it's kind of meeting or interacting with the LORD in person. It's like watching animation in 3D glasses :D lol, anyways, yeah!

I still don't understand how the meaning changes. Or are you just saying it's easier to read without numbers?
 
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ac28

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For purely a reading Bible, I think it would be great. In fact, after reading Linet's 1st post, I spent a couple of hours today playing with a text copy of the AV New Testament I found on the internet. I eliminated the verse numbers and arranged paragraphs. I only finished Mt 1 & 2 but I tried several formats to determine which is most readable. I did add chapter numbers but that's it. Gotta have some way to know, at least ball park, where you're at.
 
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Razare

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I agree with you about this.

If you look how it was written in Hebrew, how they wrote it is correct. They even added decorative elements that add or detract emphasis from passages. Like for example, during a song, they might elongate the letters to make the song expand out on the pages.

But just that it flowed as one coherent line of thought, it was not written in a way where you swoop in to pull out single verses devoid of context. Numbers and Chapters cause this to happen far too much.

And the main problem I see is this... A pastor or teacher with full revelation of a verse, pulls it out, and uses it properly. Then he gives it to people, but these people don't have the full understanding. They parrot what the person said. They expand upon it. They build theologies out of it. It snowballs, and can shift away from the original meaning from context.

Now, often this manner of error is not a complete error. If they build a teaching correctly on a verse someone had the full revelation of, it should be a correct teaching. HOWEVER, where the error has crept in, in my own way of thinking, was emphasis.

By nit-picking out verses we like, we run a high risk of failing to emphasize the ideas in scripture in balance.

Some people build whole theologies they emphasize, just out of 2 or 3 verses, and they will have whole lectures about those 2 or 3 verses, and go on and on about it. Even if the teaching were correct, it is error if you over-emphasize even a correct teaching.

For example, I am not OSAS... but in even speaking about how salvation could be lost we immediately run the risk of emphasis. Is it even worth mentioning? From proper understanding of the gospel, it's rare to lose it, and the Bible really never mentions a single case of it occurring for a Christian. The New Testament mentions really 1 instance in Hebrews where it discusses how a Christian could lose salvation. It never mentions it actually happening, though.

And I have found myself in this problem of emphasis because I learn from WoF people. WoF people know really great things out of scripture. They know such great advanced things, they go on and on about them. And if you listen too much to that without reading the Bible, you will miss a lot of the basics Christians are supposed to know.

"cast off all malice" for example. A Christian can wear malice like filthy clothing and you literally have to cast it off. It's so basic, WoF people on TV wont teach on it.

So the word is in balance, that's why we use the Bible to learn... pulling out single verses, or focusing on teachings from specific ministers will fail us in this area of getting the balance correct. We might imagine if the word of God is our fuel, we have to have the mixture right for it to work right in our life.

So Amen! Reading it as one line of thought will help us get the balance right as God intended.
 
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Razare

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Yes, there's something unique about scripture without no.s it's kind of meeting or interacting with the LORD in person. It's like watching animation in 3D glasses :D lol, anyways, yeah!

It's amazing!! While I read it, I can read it like a book without trying to build theology out of every line. It's brought peace to my mind.
 
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mmksparbud

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The original did not have verses, chapters, nor much punctuation and was read right to left on a scroll. Fine when you grow up reading that way. It's easier to read and to find what you want with verses and chapters and in sentences. However, it can make a world of difference when you eliminate the periods and commas--or put them in a different place.


Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Gen 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
Gen 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

and God saw every thing that he had made and behold it was very good and the evening and the morning were the sixth day and on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made and God blessed the seventh daya and sanctified it because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made these are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens and every plant of the field before it was in the earth and every herb of the field before it grew for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth and there was not a man to till the ground but there went up a mist from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground and the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul

Not really much of a difference there. However, much has been made by some people of the difference between chapters 1 and 2 with some stating that these are even 2 separate creations. When read without all the separations and punctuations--you get a whole narrative that is not so easy to separate into 2 creations.

(Luk 23:43 WEBA) Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Jesus said to him assuredly I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise

Placing a period or coma in a different place can make a world of difference.

Jesus said to him, “Assuredly I tell you today. You will be with me in Paradise.”

Jesus is not saying today you will be with me in Paradise--but I tell you this day--you will be with me in Paradise.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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However, when I read without the numbered lines or verses, I saw who the message was about. I saw another side of what I believe it was like finally "shaking hands with the LORD" wondering where he's been all this while. So now, I keep asking myself, did we disrupt the full revelation of God to mankind by numbering the lines?
go back to the one who inspired it.
it's kind of meeting or interacting with the LORD in person.
The experience is just taken to a whole new level
It's amazing!! While I read it, I can read it like a book without trying to build theology out of every line. It's brought peace to my mind.
Like a letter written directly to us, from the Creator of the Universe, the Giver of All Life:

Continual Peace, Overflowing Joy, Perfect Righteousness is all free now TODAY with eternal life/ salvation/ when someone is born again.
This is often lost in 'tradition' - not even known nor realized in 'church'.

Learning from the AUTHOR ...... (read John 17 ; Jesus's prayer for His disciples to live in union with Jesus and with the Father, as the Father and Jesus live as ONE, so also the disciples.)...
and
not from following man.... rather >

Therefore, just as you accepted Messiah Yahshua our Master,

so you must be led by Him,

being rooted and being built up in Him,

and being confirmed in the faith, even as you were taught,

abounding in it with thanksgiving.

Watch that there not be one misleading you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Messiah.
 
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Razare

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Revelation about how much the church has theologized and doctrineized scripture started to hit me yesterday, but I had trouble keeping it almost immediately because it was just very huge.

It's like, we worship a doctrine and not Jesus. We worship a verse, and not Jesus.

When the Bible says to us Christ is the word made flesh, this was never ever intended by God that men could then just read the Bible, and in that reading of scripture have relationship with God.

The relationship with God can't happen by scripture. Because God is not a dusty book. God is not exactly John 3:16. God is the revelation of John 3:16, given to us by the Holy Spirit, and lived out subsequently in our life James 1:23-24.

A Christian can never then hang their hat on any verse, or series of verses... the reason being the only place to rest is Christ... and this idea is not vain in that we say it without results, rather it is actual trust in him and trust in the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. Without that guidance of the Holy Spirit, we do not know truth, even should we read the Bible our whole lives.

And the chapters and line numbers, while good, they can also enable us to build us a series of verses to follow rather than Jesus. Man, I want to follow Jesus, not my theology!
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Revelation about how much the church has theologized and doctrineized scripture started to hit me yesterday, but I had trouble keeping it almost immediately because it was just very huge.

It's like, we worship a doctrine and not Jesus. We worship a verse, and not Jesus.

When the Bible says to us Christ is the word made flesh, this was never ever intended by God that men could then just read the Bible, and in that reading of scripture have relationship with God.

The relationship with God can't happen by scripture. Because God is not a dusty book. God is not exactly John 3:16. God is the revelation of John 3:16, given to us by the Holy Spirit, and lived out subsequently in our life James 1:23-24.

A Christian can never then hang their hat on any verse, or series of verses... the reason being the only place to rest is Christ... and this idea is not vain in that we say it without results, rather it is actual trust in him and trust in the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. Without that guidance of the Holy Spirit, we do not know truth, even should we read the Bible our whole lives.

And the chapters and line numbers, while good, they can also enable us to build us a series of verses to follow rather than Jesus. Man, I want to follow Jesus, not my theology!
Amein.

"follow Jesus" not religion.

See if it's available "The secret of the Anabaptists" from way back when they turned the world upside down wherever they went(any town or country they lived in).

The secular and the "religious" governments WERE TERRIFIED of their power as they followed JESUS. (because the secular and the "religious" were all worldly and NOT following JESUS)

Of course,
even many Anabaptist assemblies TODAY(and for quite some time) may be just like the rest, but once they were full of LIFE of JESUS and POWER of TRUE TESTIMONY and the BLOOD OF THE LAMB.
i.e. once they were REAL ekklesia like in the Bible,
TODAY they may simply be religious organization in most places they exist.
 
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