What has this world come to? Transgender bathroom setups?

[gurneyhalleck1]

My priest brought to our attention at Divine Liturgy two weeks ago that California has passed a law that "transgender" people can use either bathroom in California now, especially in schools! He's working on a petition to overturn the law. He is passionate about it.

I never dreamed the persecution of Christians would come this strongly in my lifetime. "Thy Kingdom, Come!"

My godfather, the deacon at our parish, is also a principal in a public school. He told me that there is a little third grader "transgender" student there and he demands to use the girls' bathroom! They offered to let him use a private office bathroom, but it wasn't good enough. Lawsuits are being threatened and all these attorneys and folks on this kid's side are coming trying to "educate" the deacon into understanding the situation....

sigh.....

I used to laugh at those nutty TV evangelists back in the day saying, "these are the end times!" Now, I'm not laughing so much!

In just a couple years California has decided to overturn the will of the people and allow same-sex sufferers to "marry," has written laws to eventually FORCE us to teach the gay lifestyle in the classroom, and now to let girls into boys' bathrooms and vice versa....

Love, have mercy

 

[jennimatts]

..."transgender" people can use either bathroom in California now, especially in schools!
...
I never dreamed the persecution of Christians would come this strongly in my lifetime.

I don't see how this is persecution of Christians. ???

 

[MariaRegina]

Here is the link for churches to obtain petitions to help in the California effort.

October Harvest of Signatures

Joseph, please pass this information onto your pastor.

Citizens can also search that site and obtain petitions to sign or to pass around.

 

[MariaRegina]

My priest brought to our attention at Divine Liturgy two weeks ago that California has passed a law that "transgender" people can use either bathroom in California now, especially in schools! He's working on a petition to overturn the law. He is passionate about it.

I never dreamed the persecution of Christians would come this strongly in my lifetime. "Thy Kingdom, Come!"

My godfather, the deacon at our parish, is also a principal in a public school. He told me that there is a little third grader "transgender" student there and he demands to use the girls' bathroom! They offered to let him use a private office bathroom, but it wasn't good enough. Lawsuits are being threatened and all these attorneys and folks on this kid's side are coming trying to "educate" the deacon into understanding the situation....

sigh.....

I used to laugh at those nutty TV evangelists back in the day saying, "these are the end times!" Now, I'm not laughing so much!

In just a couple years California has decided to overturn the will of the people and allow same-sex sufferers to "marry," has written laws to eventually FORCE us to teach the gay lifestyle in the classroom, and now to let girls into boys' bathrooms and vice versa....

Love, have mercy

Joseph, I believe Rus and you are right.

Not only are public schools teaching sex education, gay history and pride, but also they are teaching Islam and transgenderism. However, allowing Christian celebrations of Christmas and Easter are no longer allowed, so reverse discrimination is happening. In addition, moral education is not allowed if it is based on the Ten Commandments or Christian values. When will people realize how dangerous public education is? The official religion taught in the schools is secular humanism, which is anti-Christian at its very core.

 

[buzuxi02]

Just to recap, are the transgendered the ones that get a medically grafted limp penis attached to themselves, or are they the cross dressers?

 

[rusmeister]

Insane people are insane. It's really simple. They have lost their minds.

But heck, when I tried to warn about stuff like that here, I got poo-poo'd.

 

[Dewi Sant]

Before anything else, we must remember that these are people who, like ourselves, are human, with feelings, hearts, and souls. It is through pressures and traumas of society, that they have made these decisions, or had the decisions thrust upon them.

Compassion before judgement.




It is our duty as Christians to listen to them and welcome them, as people, not as "transgender" people. The scare quotes suggest something malicious where it may need not apply.
There are examples going back into the '50s where people born with hormonal imbalances were given different genital apparatus...often because their natural set wouldn't work, or was mutilated. I know of a case where a person was born with a penis which was less than an inch in length...that same person had breasts and high levels of estrogen.

We are fortunate not to suffer from the immense psychological pain these people suffer with. I believe it is quite incomprehensible to imagine the daily agony. Yes, none of the surgery would be necessary were love more manifest in the world, but it is not. It is a failure on our part as Christians for hiding our light and spewing forth judgement under the banner of "righteousness". The worst excesses of the protestant mindset.

 

[Kristos]

just make them unisex - problem solved

 

[MKJ]

just make them unisex - problem solved

In a lot of cases that would actually make more sense. In many paces family washrooms are already unisex. And it would clear up the problem of having an empty men's room while the line for the ladies' is half a mile long.

 

[Hetta]

Yes on unisex bathrooms. There are closed doors in bathrooms, people. Nobody is nude. I don't see the problem here.

 

[MKJ]

Just to recap, are the transgendered the ones that get a medically grafted limp penis attached to themselves, or are they the cross dressers?

Cross dressers are just people that like to wear clothes of the opposite sex. They seem quite variable in the reasons they do it.

Transgendered people have a form of body dysmorphoia, probably related to hormones in the womb that affect brain development. They feel trapped in the wrong body. Some get surgical sex changes, but a lot don't. Even those that do often don't get a fake penis. Its much more common for them to just wear opposite sex clothes and take hormone therapy.

Incidentally, the fake penis isn't necessarily limp - some of them work like a goose-neck lamp.

 

[MKJ]

Yes on unisex bathrooms. There are closed doors in bathrooms, people. Nobody is nude. I don't see the problem here.

Sometimes people do want a little more privacy - I have on occasion had to change in a public washroom.

But a room of big stalls and a few single rooms, maybe with change area in those ones and set up for wheelchairs makes sense to me. They could be used by anyone who needs more space or privacy, and the stall washroom would be for people just doing a quick dash.

 

[Dusky Mouse]

Certainly everyone who would qualify to be called transsexual or transgender in this case of the California restrooms, and this would include all area's of access including schools. From Kindergarten to high school, and also locker rooms, if not mistaken, of course refer first and foremost to fellow human beings to whom we as Christians should show compassion.

And yet, it is not incumbent upon us to approve immorality, sexual perversion, or sin.

We are not called upon to renounce righteousness and holiness, in order to be tolerant of condemnable behaviors.

What we're seeing transpire in the secular realm is the increasing progression of erosion of boundaries.

No longer will there be limits to one's behavior. Anything anyone believes about themselves will be legally defensible as having permission to exhibit itself in public. It will have all access, and without limits. And in fact those who object will then be the one's prosecuted for their intolerance of a protected class.

And while proponents of this next societal evolution will argue it is right and correct that it happen, they'll argue also that the religious have no standing in opposition because America is not a theocracy.

They'll argue for all manner of immorality and indecency having every right to trespass where it chooses, while arguing on the other hand those who are religious and opposed have no right to be so.
It's just the beginning. It's going to get worse once the gateway was opened with gay civil unions having a right. That led to the push for gay marriage. And that led to the push by trans to have the right to enter into facilities based on their facade and not their substance. They dress the part while their gender anatomy depicts something totally different.

It's something to witness. All manner of advocacy for tolerance for all manner of behaviors and yet tolerance for the religious righteous and family values isn't as forthcoming.

My priest brought to our attention at Divine Liturgy two weeks ago that California has passed a law that "transgender" people can use either bathroom in California now, especially in schools! He's working on a petition to overturn the law. He is passionate about it.

I never dreamed the persecution of Christians would come this strongly in my lifetime. "Thy Kingdom, Come!"

My godfather, the deacon at our parish, is also a principal in a public school. He told me that there is a little third grader "transgender" student there and he demands to use the girls' bathroom! They offered to let him use a private office bathroom, but it wasn't good enough. Lawsuits are being threatened and all these attorneys and folks on this kid's side are coming trying to "educate" the deacon into understanding the situation....

sigh.....

I used to laugh at those nutty TV evangelists back in the day saying, "these are the end times!" Now, I'm not laughing so much!

In just a couple years California has decided to overturn the will of the people and allow same-sex sufferers to "marry," has written laws to eventually FORCE us to teach the gay lifestyle in the classroom, and now to let girls into boys' bathrooms and vice versa....

Love, have mercy

 

[Hetta]

Before anything else, we must remember that these are people who, like ourselves, are human, with feelings, hearts, and souls. It is through pressures and traumas of society, that they have made these decisions, or had the decisions thrust upon them.

Compassion before judgement.

It is our duty as Christians to listen to them and welcome them, as people, not as "transgender" people. The scare quotes suggest something malicious where it may need not apply.
There are examples going back into the '50s where people born with hormonal imbalances were given different genital apparatus...often because their natural set wouldn't work, or was mutilated. I know of a case where a person was born with a penis which was less than an inch in length...that same person had breasts and high levels of estrogen.

We are fortunate not to suffer from the immense psychological pain these people suffer with. I believe it is quite incomprehensible to imagine the daily agony. Yes, none of the surgery would be necessary were love more manifest in the world, but it is not. It is a failure on our part as Christians for hiding our light and spewing forth judgement under the banner of "righteousness". The worst excesses of the protestant mindset.

I thought this was a wonderful post and truly expresses a loving and godly heart. People like you, Dewi, restore my faith in Christians. Compassion is indeed required, and some understanding that nobody chooses to believe from childhood that they were born into the wrong body/gender. To go through gender-reassignment surgery is a major, major procedure that I cannot even imagine.

A better attitude to have towards transsexuals is to understand that they they are our brothers and sisters and to love them, as the poster says above.

 

[tp552]

Before anything else, we must remember that these are people who, like ourselves, are human, with feelings, hearts, and souls. It is through pressures and traumas of society, that they have made these decisions, or had the decisions thrust upon them.

Compassion before judgement.




It is our duty as Christians to listen to them and welcome them, as people, not as "transgender" people. The scare quotes suggest something malicious where it may need not apply.
There are examples going back into the '50s where people born with hormonal imbalances were given different genital apparatus...often because their natural set wouldn't work, or was mutilated. I know of a case where a person was born with a penis which was less than an inch in length...that same person had breasts and high levels of estrogen.

We are fortunate not to suffer from the immense psychological pain these people suffer with. I believe it is quite incomprehensible to imagine the daily agony. Yes, none of the surgery would be necessary were love more manifest in the world, but it is not. It is a failure on our part as Christians for hiding our light and spewing forth judgement under the banner of "righteousness". The worst excesses of the protestant mindset.

Well stated!

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Before anything else, we must remember that these are people who, like ourselves, are human, with feelings, hearts, and souls. It is through pressures and traumas of society, that they have made these decisions, or had the decisions thrust upon them.

Compassion before judgement.




It is our duty as Christians to listen to them and welcome them, as people, not as "transgender" people. The scare quotes suggest something malicious where it may need not apply.
There are examples going back into the '50s where people born with hormonal imbalances were given different genital apparatus...often because their natural set wouldn't work, or was mutilated. I know of a case where a person was born with a penis which was less than an inch in length...that same person had breasts and high levels of estrogen.

We are fortunate not to suffer from the immense psychological pain these people suffer with. I believe it is quite incomprehensible to imagine the daily agony. Yes, none of the surgery would be necessary were love more manifest in the world, but it is not. It is a failure on our part as Christians for hiding our light and spewing forth judgement under the banner of "righteousness". The worst excesses of the protestant mindset.

Good to remember and keep in mind ..thanks for that

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I know this might sound odd, but I guess I was looking to hear more the opinions of Orthodox Christians on this matter. I note that most of the passionate "pro" arguments are from non-Orthodox.

Rus, brother, I will NOT "poo-poo" your feelings on this in the slightest. It's a world gone mad. It's just nuts that people are ok with their little daughter urinating in the same bathroom as a boy. Oh, the permutations of improprieties are endless!

The whole "transgender" thing, that's another can of worms in itself, but to actually allow unisex bathrooms, what on Earth is wrong with us?

And for everyone saying this is no big woop, my parish priest is passionately working on collecting signatures to force a recall/revisit on the issue. He is very concerned and disgusted. So rather than listen to the world on this, I'm sticking with my spiritual father....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

In many paces family washrooms are already unisex. And it would clear up the problem of having an empty men's room while the line for the ladies' is half a mile long.

Indeed...

Ironically enough, in other parts of the world they already have a 3rd category for people in daily life. Specifically, I'm reminded of the
Sulawesi's fifth gender - for the Bugis culture of Sulawesi has been described as having three sexes (male, female and intersex) as well as five genders with distinct social roles.

Then you have what occurs in Southern Mexico with the Muxe (more here, here and here). For in many Zapotece communities, third gender roles are often apparent since the muxe are described as a third gender.... biologically male but with feminine characteristics........not considered be homosexuals and instead see as just another gender They are not considered be homosexuals, rather they are just another gender, with some choosing to marry women and have families, while others unfortunately form relationships with men. They are deemed such in light of how these individuals have the bodies of men, yet they perform gender in a different manner than men since it is not a masculine persona but neither is it a feminine persona that they perform but, in general, a combination of the two


And of course, there are the Hijra (South Asia) - with India also deciding to list eunuchs as well. For the hijra gender role includes those seen as intersex people(khusras), crossdressers (zenanas) and eunuchs (narnbans).

Hjras in India ​

A Eunuch's Life - India ​

The eunuch aspect is intriguing when seeing the ways that they were incomplete - many forcibly made as such. I've been fascinated seeing the history of the Eunuch in Byzantine History and Society and how others were treated...the stigmatization of Eunuchs being difficult - I can only imagine what the The Ethiopian Eunuch (Acts 8:26-40) went through as well as eunuchs in general - as the eunuchs of the Bible (Isaiah 56:3-5, Deuteronomy 23:1 , 2 Kings 20:17-19 Daniel 1:1-21 Esther 2:14-16 Esther 4:3-5 Jeremiah 38:7-10 Jeremiah 39:15-18 ) were castrated males or those born incapable of reproduction due to a birth defect - with the purpose of intentional castration to induce impotence and remove sexuality.

And I have to keep this in mind when it comes to what Christ said since in Matthew 19:12, Jesus mentions eunuchs and says, “There are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it.”

Of course, I'm not saying for an instant that Jesus EVER condoned homosexuality as either good or something he blessed - always a grievous thing to see others promote that......and I'm glad for others addressing it (as has been shared in previous discussion before in #19 /#20 #21 #22 ). Nonetheless, it is an issue to consider that even as Christ defined marriage between man and woman (As he did in Matthew 19), the reality was that others were placed in very difficult categories as eunuchs - people deemed to not fit in. Even according to the OT Law, Deuteronomy 23:1, eunuchs were outlawed and excluded from the community of faith - something the Lord had to speak on later (as seen in Isaiah and in Christ).And I wrestle with how we're to do that with others today .....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

just make them unisex - problem solved

Mabye a unisex one could really make a difference - as it concerns not having battles over a bathroom.

Of course, I find it humorous that no one fully knows where others are anyhow - some having operations so well done you'd think that the person in the men's restroom was a man all his life....and never know where they came from. Same as it occurs for the women. So you can't ever stop something FULLY from not going down with transgender people using resources we think are not for them.

I used to joke with friends about it years ago on how they'd probably have to make a whole new set of bathrooms - one for men who wished to be women and others for women who wished to be men - but to see developments occur as they have are interesting.

As St. Anthony said best, "A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, "You are mad; you are not like us."

 

[Dewi Sant]

I know this might sound odd, but I guess I was looking to hear more the opinions of Orthodox Christians on this matter. I note that most of the passionate "pro" arguments are from non-Orthodox.

Rus, brother, I will NOT "poo-poo" your feelings on this in the slightest. It's a world gone mad. It's just nuts that people are ok with their little daughter urinating in the same bathroom as a boy. Oh, the permutations of improprieties are endless!

The whole "transgender" thing, that's another can of worms in itself, but to actually allow unisex bathrooms, what on Earth is wrong with us?

And for everyone saying this is no big woop, my parish priest is passionately working on collecting signatures to force a recall/revisit on the issue. He is very concerned and disgusted. So rather than listen to the world on this, I'm sticking with my spiritual father....

I have attended regular (three times weekly) Orthodox worship since 2005; was Chrismated in 2009.
The only reason I am using an 'Anglican' faith icon is because of unfortunate circumstances which will be rectified in the next few weeks. I could, and perhaps should use the tri-bar cross; but perhaps I am proud of my humility.

I would warn against treating a faith group as a corporation of fellow ideologists.
Before I was Orthodox I was a hard-line dogmatist.
It was since relating to Orthodoxy and several priests and confessors in Greece that I learned of the compassionate beating heart of the Christian church.

I realise that in the Americas, religions are used as pressure groups in politics. This is far removed from my experience in both British and European Orthodoxy.

Aquire the spirit of peace, and a multitude around you will find their salvation.

What peace can be found in aggrivation and hate?